Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, this is going to be a long one....

I've been kicking around the idea of dart frogs for a long time now. I've pondered the idea of starting up a tank, and I’ve posted a few questions up here. I was particularly interested in finding something to be my "summer project" (of course to be continued after summer ends...but I wanted to fund it and get started while a have as much time and money possible.) but I didn’t really have the "right" tank to do it in. I'm a big fan of DIY, and converting stuff, so I was waiting for something other than a plain 20g tank.

SO... I was ecstatic when I can home from work one day to discover my neighbour had a HUGE glass case with a free sign on it sitting on the sidewalk! I measured it and it turns out to be 250ish gallons; it’s big enough for me to sit inside! At first I was just going to use it for my leopard geckos, "as is", But after a very enlightening conversation with the owner of a local orchid shop, I decided I really want to plant it with orchids, and broms. I've had lots of experience with planted tanks, so that’s not the problem. But if anyone wants to recommend Orchids they have had success with in Vivariums please do tell!

But, what I need help with is the frogs themselves. I've never kept dart frogs, but I do have experience with assorted geckos, GTFs, WTFs, and Aquatic frogs, all of which have thrived and lived long healthy lives, so I’m not a complete newbie. My questions are

1) How many in a 250g? I really like the green and black *Insert scientific name here* darts. After purchasing all the supplies I don’t think I will have the budget to purchase a huge colony. So If I were to get just 1.2 sub-adults or adults, would they be ok? Do you think they would be able to find food? Would I EVER see them? Would it be OK to add to the group later on?

2) Breeding: would that small group reproduce quickly? How long until I have to worry about inbreeding/overpopulation or is that an issue at all? Any tips on getting them to breed in a large environment, as opposed to a smaller one?

3) Canada: Who ships to Canada? What breeders would you recommend? Are there any shows in Western Canada where I could find darts?

4) Assuming no one will ship to Canada: does anyone know about Pt. Roberts? Its a tiny little peninsula that is attached to BC, But happens to fall below the 49th parallel, so its part of America, but to get to anywhere else in the USA you have to go across the USA/CAN border in to Canada then across the border again, back into the USA. If your lost go look it up on a map...it usually shows up. Is it part of the continental USA? Will anyone ship there? We have a cottage there so I could easily pick up the frogs there, and bring them home to Canada myself, if anyone will ship there. Ideas?? Thoughts on that?

5) Anything I'm missing?? Anyone have experience with BIG vivariums? Any words of wisdom??? I'd very, very grateful for any feed back you guys have!!! Feel free to e-mail me @ psycokitten@shaw.ca

THANK YOU!
(Pictured below is the tank, with my very fat cat inside to give an idea of scale )

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0.2.0. Leo
1.1.0. WTF
0.1.0. Irish Setter
2.1.0. Holland Lop Bunnies
1.1.0. House Cats
Too Many Fish!

Check out my site ~ www.freewebs.com/stephsgeckos

Hi, lots of questions. Smuggling aside, you can contact me through ; www.fryebrothersfrogs.com
Cool thoughts,
check this out:
Richhttp://www.dartden.com/viewtopic.php?t=276

http://www.dartden.com/viewtopic.php?t=276&start=45

Not quite sure why it is sooo hard to view what I am talking about;
If you go to Dartden.com and are in the forum,go to "HUGE amounts of Great Stuff" you will see a 500gal viv.greenhouse being steup . I woulds not suggest an Uberviv as a first viv , but here is what I am doing as we speek.

Rich

To add to my last post, being a computor illiterate, I am sure the probs are created by myslef, not trying to push stuff off on anyone else.
Rich

I wasent planning on smuggeling...the border at Pr. roberts is VERY lax. We've gotten through without ID before, so as long as i can get a certificate of health it should be fine right? are Dart Frogs any different from other herps? I've had no problems getting leopard gekos across the border before. Anyone tryed this before?
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0.2.0. Leo
1.1.0. WTF
0.1.0. Irish Setter
2.1.0. Holland Lop Bunnies
1.1.0. House Cats
Too Many Fish!

Check out my site ~ www.freewebs.com/stephsgeckos

All Darts are CITES II species.
I would suggest a bit more research on all aspects of the hobby.

I would also skip the intro ....at least for awhile.

Rich

hmm, ok. well none of the caresheets, breeder sites, and articles I have read so far has mentiond that they are a level II species. my "research" about crossing the border consisted of talking to the guy who was admitting us back into canada. he said as long as we have a certificate of health, amphibians were fine to go across. but i guess i should have mentioned what kind of amphibians it was...thats ok I'm sure I can find someone in canada.

P.S. My plan was not to introduce them untill late august at the earliest. I wanted to wait untill all the Local herp shows were done so i have a better feel for whats out there.
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0.2.0. Leo
1.1.0. WTF
0.1.0. Irish Setter
2.1.0. Holland Lop Bunnies
1.1.0. House Cats
Too Many Fish!

Check out my site ~ www.freewebs.com/stephsgeckos

There are some good discussions on a few other boards about smuggling, enclosures, husbandry, ect.
All Darts are CITES II , which means that both export and import papers must be in order when crossing(importing) State borders.
A huge enclosure is an awesome way to go, but may not be the way to go for a first timer. Too many things to keep track of , may be a bit overwhelming to a newcomer.
I doubt you will find any in-deapth discussions about Ubervivs here on Kingsnake. Good luck with the research.

Rich

That's an awesome tank, and I envy you. I agree with Rich, however. Even though you have a lot of herp experience, you might want to try one or two species of darts in separate tanks, perhaps a 20 or 30 gallon, just to get an idea of what they do, experiment a little with a couple of different ways of setting up water features, backgrounds, etc. before chosing a species for the big set-up. It has such wonderful potential for something really showy and great.

Whatever you decide, do keep us posted.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus

Ok, heres the updated plan

First, I'm going to take everyones advice, and do up a little 20g for darts for now,Nice and simple and i'll post pic as it goes.
the big viv. will cater more to my whites, i.e. no delicate flowers! but i'll keep posting pics because you sound interested and pictures are always great! i'm going to do a contained water feature, something i'm doing myself out of clay (for ceramics class) instead of the complicated uncontained type (tryed this before, didnt work too well, flodded a lot...) My big goal for this one is to get some nice live moss growing, and get some broms established so when I do convert to darts all i have to do is fill in the orchids.

Just for the heck of it I attached a pic of the 40g I have whites in now, there are a few horozontal branches, and A background that have been aded since the pic.

-----
0.2.0. Leo
1.1.0. WTF
0.1.0. Irish Setter
2.1.0. Holland Lop Bunnies
1.1.0. House Cats
Too Many Fish!

Check out my site ~ www.freewebs.com/stephsgeckos

Go to www.edmontonreptiles.com for the reptile society in northern alberta. There are two shows a year, the next one is the beginnning of October. There are usually a few darts for sale, and definately some contacts to be made.

Also on this site are links to the TARAS (southern alberta society), and possibly Vancouver's society. Try the forum on the site for more local stuff, and contacts as well