Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i have a 24 x 12 inch tank and im trying to fine tune my temps. under one side i hvave an 11 x 11 inch heat mat wih a mat stat on it. the thing is one the hot side its about 90* and on the cool side down to about 60* that gradiant is too much how would i make the gradiant less. ive move the mat about 3 inches towards the cool end that might be better? if all else fails i could put hta mat in the center and se if i get good temps at either side? and then a warm middle? dont get it cos i have tile as s substrate shurly that should conduct heat well? what can i do other than bying loads of heat lamps and thermostats for it?

It sounds like your cage is not a good candidate for undertank heat. Often when cages are too large (specifically have too much volume), too ventilated, and/or in too cold of a room undertank heat sources are not sufficient. In these conditions you need an overhead radiant heat source.

But it may still work. For now get some thermal mass sitting over the heated area. Some large rocks, clay pots, heavy ceramic water bowl.

Also, give us more information about this tank. What type of ventilation does it have, how cold is the room where it sits, what species it holds, etc.
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

well im gona get a leopard gecko for it by the end of the week.
its 18 inches high 12 wide and 24 long. its an old aquairum the rrom is a bti cold at the moment im trying to keep the room as warm as possable tho. is got a big rock over the side of the heating the warm side is great. it has a tile substrate which iw ould ahve thought would conduct the heat well. the heatmat is well pressed to the bottom of the tank as well. it doesnt seem too bad when the warm temp is warm enough is suppose ill find out when i get the warm temp right. the top is bout 1/3 coverd with a flouresant tube (its an old fish tank so i recycled the hood for lighting) ive cut away the rest for ventalation whihc iwll be coverd up with wire mesh. its the surface temp which is stayign cold. and my temps are about nearly 70 at the far side of the cool side

Ed,

Thanks for the additional information. I hate to say this, but I'm not a big fan of keeping leopard geckos in a cool room with undertank heat sources only (except in racks). But I still think we can get it to work better.

With the tile substrate I agree that additional thermal mass is likely not needed.

For now, loosely cover the ventilated areas with aluminum foil. If that helps then you might have to take additional steps to insulate the tank.

The best way is to use Reflectix insulation on the back and sides. I can be put behind a tank background so it stays hidden for the most part.

It will be most helpful on the top and possibly underneath the tank.

But don't go out and buy it just yet. Cover as much of the top as possible with foil and see if the temps go up. If that has a positive effect then let me know and I can make further suggestions.

>>well im gona get a leopard gecko for it by the end of the week.
>>its 18 inches high 12 wide and 24 long. its an old aquairum the rrom is a bti cold at the moment im trying to keep the room as warm as possable tho. is got a big rock over the side of the heating the warm side is great. it has a tile substrate which iw ould ahve thought would conduct the heat well. the heatmat is well pressed to the bottom of the tank as well. it doesnt seem too bad when the warm temp is warm enough is suppose ill find out when i get the warm temp right. the top is bout 1/3 coverd with a flouresant tube (its an old fish tank so i recycled the hood for lighting) ive cut away the rest for ventalation whihc iwll be coverd up with wire mesh. its the surface temp which is stayign cold. and my temps are about nearly 70 at the far side of the cool side
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

its the floor temp that wont go up. humm it seems to warm up wheni have my light on it. but it dont let out much heat. ill just go check my temps.....

argh my hot side was 95! and my cool about 70 i seems to stay at 70 whihc is ok i suppose the air tem is pretty good its floor temp so i dunno what to do

Are those air temps or surface temperatures?
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

surface temps

at the mo its about 93 and 70

Why not just add a bulb for overhead heat or ceramic heat emitter on one side of tank.

i was sondering if i could do it cheepishly. i have bulb holders but couldnt that rais the temps too much? its reasonable at the moment so well have to see what happens when all setlles out. thanks for the advise tho

oh and one more thing cos i ilve in the uk everythign is more expencive than ver there cos its all american stuff so it all costs more so ive spena lot more ive spen like $110 ish already and i already had the tank substrate was free thats on just heat mat matstat food dish cork bark and acouple of other things

I assume you are using a screen top? Why not try to seal off the top of the enclosure, rather than try new heating elements?? I think that screen topped enclosures are one of the worst candidates for reptiles, as it does nothing to help maintain a stable environment.

The two things that are vital for their success are adequate temperatures and humidity levels. Screen tops do nothing to help conserve or maintain either of these. Humidity rises and escapes through the top, as does heat. With a screen top, you are merely in a constant battle against physics...People that use open screen tops, typically have to increase the wattage of the basking bulb to achieve optimal temperatures. By using such high wattage bulbs, you are simply drying out the air, decreasing the humidity, which is a death sentence(long and drawn out) for reptiles, even desert dwellers...

When I used to keep Odatria monitors(Ackies, Freckleds, Blackheads, and Kimberly Rock Monitors), I was able to achieve 150F basking temperatures(what they need) by using either a 50 or 75watt halogen bulb. I was able to achieve these temps with such a low wattage bulb, because I did not use screen!!! It's all about the laws of physics... hot, moist air rises..... and what does that leave behind? colder, dryer conditions, which are not ideal for herps..

I bet that if you went with a solid/cover top with minimal ventilation, you would see more stable and controllable temperatures...

Cheers, I hope this offers a different perspective than what has been given so far...

Bob
treemonitors.com

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TheOdatriad

its a galss tank if i sealed the top up i would suffocate it. also i know the laws of physics and its the surfae temps im on about not air temps

Ed,

You don't need to seal it off, you just need to slow some of the heat loss. As a cheap experiment just cover all the open areas with aluminum foil. I assume that's a standard household item in the UK?

Aluminum foil will help as it blocks radiant energy. If you notice an improvement then you can just modify what you have. But from the sounds of it you're pretty far off from having ideal temps for a leopard gecko. Since your surface temps drop off so quick I'm guessing the air temps also drop off pretty quick vertically.

If you don't notice an improvement from the foil I'm afraid you're going to have to consider going with an alternative heat source.

>>its a galss tank if i sealed the top up i would suffocate it. also i know the laws of physics and its the surfae temps im on about not air temps
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Current snakes:

0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

7.6 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

0.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Ed, you do not think that surface temps have anything to do with air temps??? They are both interrelated, and air temps greatly affect surface temps.

Going by what you have told us, I take it you only have a very thin layer of substrate... Most people do this as well; offer an inch or two of 'calci sand' or even newspaper. How do you expect surface temperatures to remain constant, unaffected by air temps??? In nature, surface/ground temps are often different temperature than the air temp, especially at night... Why is that? Because the ground has a tremendous amount of mass, it is many miles thick... The ground in nature, because of its thickness, acts as a great insulator, and retains heat very well. When you only have an inch or so of soil, or sand, or newspaper(doesn't hold anything), you do not have any type of insulator, that will prevent the surface/substrate temps from becoming the same as the air temps...

Remember where Leopard Geckos come from in the wild. They come from Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.. These are very extreme areas, where there is a great fluctuation in air temps throughout any given day. While temps may be nice and warm during the day(sometimes too hot for their liking), temps typically drop off drastically at night..This is why they utilize burrows or cracks or fissures, etc... Within a large mass, the temps remain rather constant(and favorable), than out in the open, whether it be blazing hot, or too cold(at night). This is why they, and other reptiles from similar environments, tend to locate themselves around boulders, cliffs, burrows, etc.. as these areas retain heat very well.

With most people's captive setups, they do not offer such options. In most people's cases, they are either forced to bask, or be cold on the opposite end of the enclosure.. There is usually only one hiding spot(usually insufficient in size- often too large; reptiles like to wedge themselves into areas for security, big black plastic hideboxes do not offer that sense of security)...

So I see a general failure to understand what leopard geckos are, and how they live, seek out heat/resources in most people.. Your surface temperatures are not going to differ much from your air temperatures, unless you offer a great amount of inuslation that will retain the heat...

Cheers,

Bob

"run to the hills, run for your lives...."
*listen to Iron Maiden
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TheOdatriad

Obviously I'm not talking about sealing it off so that there is no influx or outflux of gases... When I was keeping my dwarf monitors, I used acrylic as a top. I had a FEW small holes drilled in the acrylic, to facilitate oxygen/CO2 exchange. Not to mention, you will be opening the enclosure on a daily basis, which will add/cycle in new air. People freak out about the ventilation thing... In most times, they offer much more than what is needed, and this results in improper temps/insufficient humidity levels, and the need for an increase in wattage of bulbs...

By using an acrylic top, you can still see through the top, as you could with a screen top, you are keeping vital heat and humidity in, and at the same time, limiting the amount of heat and humidity that escapes...

Here's a pic of my old kimberly rock monitor enclosure. Like I said, with this setup, I was able to achieve 150F basking temps with only a 50 or 75watt bulb, and this was a 6' long enclosure. Now, in your 24" long enclosure, you are having difficulties keeping stable temps, and are contemplating on adding additional heating sources?? The answer is there in front of you..

Screening=Bad..

*just because something is sold, and is marketed towards reptiles, doesn't make it a worthy or useful product. Look at 99% of the other products manufactured by the same people who make these screen lids for reptiles.. The majority of those products are all gimmicks and worthless to keeping reptiles healthy, in fact, many of them are quite dangerous and harmful, and offer no benefit to your pet..

Just my opinion through experimentation and observations over the past few years...

Cheers, I hope you figure things out so that your Leopard Gecko can live a healthy, normal life.... Take care,

Bob

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TheOdatriad

i have tile as a substrate for all you guys. what surprised me os that hte heat didnt conduct through the tile well because clays are good conductors. i think my temps are beigining to be ok now. ill find out tomorrow im fine tuning and it seems kinda good at th moment. 70 to high 80s. and ive read up about where htey come from and what everythign shoudl be whichs ome people seem to be suggesting that i havnt.

its also my first herp so im relay nervous and want to get it right but damn i cant wait

Not sure why you're using a heat mat to heat an enclosure - that's actually a poor (and unnatural) way to do it.

I have several 20 gallon tanks with screen tops. I use anywhere from a 60 watt to 100 watt lightbulb in a ceramic hood on one end. If the cool end gets too cool I simply block off more of the screen with a towel (obviously not touching the lamp anywhere).

Under the heat lamp is where the basking spot is, whether it's a half log, some grapevine wood or a large, flatish rock (which is soooo great for desert reptiles).

And what species of reptile do you have in this enclosure?

I didn't read through all the replies to this post, so I apologize if you clarified that elsewhere.