Reptile & Amphibian Forums

here he is he's a male and is doing awsome and those pits he don't have obviously don't mean a thing cause he's on his 6th pup and won't stop and the scales you see are beaded its like holding a heloderma it incredible and the lucy witht the deaed end gene not no more now you can make a scaleless lucy think of that this is a true key animal and hate all you want you just won't get one ...lol...

enjoy the pics i will reveil myself soon
ps its not the only new morph i brought in from africa wait to you see the other stuff WOW.

I saw a pic of it earlier...and i Promise...im FAR from jealous...the thing look likes it needs a trip to the fridge IMO...

WOW, what an awful and arrogant way to welcome yourself to the ball python community. Yes, people have said negative things about it, but that was in no way a necessary response. Ever think you might have trouble selling them because of your attitude instead of how the snake looks? Just my $0.02. Now for my reaction to the animal... I think the animal is very intersting and has lots of potential...

acually you all know me, and why would somone say its ugly when it is clearly one of the most gorgeous animals i've encountered in the ten years i've been going to africa, and also breeding for the last decade and a half. i'm not arrogant i just know i'm right, and there is no need to bash an innocent animal who did'nt ask to be born unique i'm just grateful to have encountered it. and it is an awsome feeder totally healthy and normal in everyway (other than the fact it is partially scaleless) but i didn't mean to insult anyone but i thought that was a good retaliation for the ignorant comment, and i don't care who you are ,you also would have bought this animal if given the chance, and don't lie youd be flaunting too.
a trip to the fridge why don't you come over here a stick it in the fridge the second you saw it in person you'd relize you'd be killing the mutant of mutants the whole premise of this all. you get kinked caramels handicapped super cinnys and retarded pearls none of which end up in freazers but displayed proudly (which all have scales), this my friend is a natural occuring morph and is perfect in everyway

p.s i got mom too so it is genetic

later

Awesome snake.

Don't worry scaleless, your identity is safe with me.

Arrogance only bothers the weak!!!!!

What does the mother look like? Is she completely scaless or partially like the one in the photo on vpi.com? Do you have photos of the other babies from the clutch that produced this one?
Also, haven't about 90% of all ball python mutations originated in the wild? I know the "man-made" animals (2 genetic mutations showing in the same animal) are not included, but I thought very few morphs were originally produced in captivity. The deformities of some of the morphs you mentioned (caramel, pearl, etc.) didn't really pop up until people started reproducing them in captivity. You can see why some people are skeptical. They may not see the scalelessness as a "morph" but as a deformity. Like the difference of you being born with purple hair as apposed to no thumbs.
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Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile Breeders
sonoranreptile@cox.net
"As we wait here for a sign, we are greeted by the end of time." --Zao

All mutations could be thought of as deformities, just some have significant negative effects and others don't. Heck, the "normal" is just the collection of the best deformities for living in their home range so far. Maybe one of our morphs will actually be a beneficial deformity and some day become the wild norm.

For a specific morph like the scaleless it comes down to weighing any difficulties against the desirability of the mutation. I've got a normal that I have to soak most every shed for some reason but since she doesn't seem to have any desirable trait along with that I don't think I'll breed for it (not sure it has anything to do with genetics) even if it isn't that big of a drawback and is quite manageable. Time will tell how well this little one grows up and if there is a down side to being scaleless and how bad it is. All we can hope for is honest reporting and I'd expect we'll get it. It will also be cool to see what can be deduced about the genetics from info about the reported mother.

well I for one have NO problem Culling bad adn deformed animals...I dont care its a $20 animal or a $2000000000000 animal...a deformed animal is a deformed animal...

I guess we should all jump on the band wagon and lets try to get some more one eyed or no eyed Albino Boas produced!!! cause it could be "the next big thing"

well Gib, I got to tell you something you may not like.

You said you have no problem killing deformed snake right?

I guess when you get an albino, spider, pied, what ever, you kill it right? I mean they are all DEFORMED!!!!!!!!

I realy think everyone needs to sit back smoke one and RELAX !!!!

We all love snakes, we are all in it for the fun RIGHT?
This sure does not seem fun to me.

Have a good day!

Why would just about everyone see an ad for a Burmese python with no eyes for sale for $4000 bash the heck out of the person selling it, but on the other hand we should be bowing down to the almighty scale "less" heat-pit-less ball python? Is this a double standard or not? And why or why not. Over the past 10 years I have seen various examples (not in person, but photos) of scaless snakes. I can't ever recall them reproducing and being proven "genetic". I also haven't seen those animals around lately either. Don't get me wrong, I e-mailed the guy with the eyeless Burm and told him that I thought he was doing a disservice to the reptile community and told him to expect about 100 e-mails just like mine.
I think that maybe sometimes we, as reptile enthusiasts, get a little caught-up in a trend (i.e. new ball morphs.
This kind of trait may not be one that you want to pass onto future generations without careful consideration. Just my $0.02
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Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile Breeders
sonoranreptile@cox.net
"As we wait here for a sign, we are greeted by the end of time." --Zao

I hatched this little het granite back in 01. I gave him to a friend to keep as a pet. He named him "Ojos" and he is still thriving.

Thanks,
Chris DeLay
Stellar Constrictors

cris i got an eyeless jungle ball as well this year give me your e-mail i'll send ya a photo it'ss pretty cool
later

I've tried dling it from VPI, I'm not seeing it here. Can someone kindly email me the photos. I'm very excited to see this new animal. I've heard so many comments about him. I appreciate it.

shakahnsgrove@comcast.net
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Violette Garcia
www.shakahnsgrove.com

Hey scaleless,

How's it going? I saw a picture of the Derma look very interesting. It will also be interesting to see the other snakes you mentioned you got from Africa. Take care.

Best Wishes,

Tony Pappalardo
Living Art Reptiles

That is one crazy looking animal! =)

However, I am concerned about the lack of heat pits. How does this affect the animal? Is the animal still able to sense temperature fluctuations of /- 0.003 degrees? How does this affect the animal's ability to distinguish a prey item? How would this affect a female's ability to regulate the temperature of a maternally incubated clutch? How do other (normal) animals react to this particular animal? Do they point and laugh?

Just A Thought,
Chris
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"You find that crazy typewriter...and you'll have your kidnappers."
-- Harry Crumb, Private Investigator

>>here he is he's a male and is doing awsome and those pits he don't have obviously don't mean a thing cause he's on his 6th pup and won't stop and the scales you see are beaded its like holding a heloderma it incredible and the lucy witht the deaed end gene not no more now you can make a scaleless lucy think of that this is a true key animal and hate all you want you just won't get one ...lol...
>>
>>enjoy the pics i will reveil myself soon
>>ps its not the only new morph i brought in from africa wait to you see the other stuff WOW.
>>

Dub, dat snak is so incridible i woods spens al i gots to hav it so amazen yo is the gretest man to eva live what a neet new morf every1 is pee compaired to yu i think you are the greetest promota to eva liv we r nutting when put next to u
i bets you mades it al de way to 3 grade befo you quits sCOOL to be so frigen COOL tel me sumting what is be de geniticks???
you is the MASTER

wow BATOR tel us mo'

Lucky Leroy
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www.newenglandreptile.com

My thoughts exactly.....

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Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile Breeders
sonoranreptile@cox.net
"As we wait here for a sign, we are greeted by the end of time." --Zao

THAT WAS HILARIOUS..........ONLY WE ALL KNOW FULL WELL KEVIN IF THAT WAS YOUR SNAKE YOU WOULD BE DOING NO DIFFERANT.........SO LIGHTEN UP AND CUT WHOEVER HE OR SHE IS SOME SLACK........REMEMBER NOT EVERYONE CAN BE KING

If it is real ... I don't like it, wouldn't buy it, I think it's pretty sad to try to reproduce such an animal. My opinion has nothing to do with jealousy - has everything to do with not wanting a snake that looks like it's been in an accident.
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Tosha

"Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed." Don Wood

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

So I shaved my cat. He is pissed but looks really cool. Not genetic but fun!!!! I am going to shave my girl friend next and put her on display. Should bring a few bucks.

Kevin

Ugly snake, but that's just my opinion.
I am not jealous either. Not even close. LOL

I am no more jealous of that snake than I am of the bug-eyed (see 'expolthalmia') Leucistic Texas Rat snakes.

And who knows, maybe with a little inbreeding some expolthalmia will pop up in the 'Derma Ball' line too. Scaleless AND bug-eyed?? Wow, that would be dreeeeamy.****

Go ahead and breed the scaleless 'trait'; you'll find your buyers. Some people like an obvious, immediately recognizable physical birth defect. Afterall, we do have bubble-eyed goldfish and floppy-eared rabbits.

A scaleless Leucistic?? Just what I've always wanted, a slithering tubesock!

BB

****sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm.

I'm not sure what to think of it. It is pretty cool. But is defiently weird. If it is healthy whats the problem? Now for all the people bashing you. What is different about what he plans to do than what others did with carmels, spiders, etc? They all are genetic defects(mutants). They all have something thats wrong with them. Look at spiders alot of them spin. And still we breed them. What about carmel albinos? They have kinks that can affect them. And clowns have big/weird shapped heads.

Not all spiders spin, not all carmel are kinked, etc. those that are are outbred in an attempt to eliminate the problem, yes it is a problem. We don't breed them to try to see if we can retain the kink and make it a "morph" in and of itself nor do we inbreed spinning spinders to see if we can get the ultimate "spinning top spider".

To breed a scaleless, pitless ball (IMO) would be like hoping that your children are born without arms and legs. But this is my opinion I'm sure there are those that find this attractive and will pay money for it. Personally I think it looks like the snake has been in an accident, probably requires a bunch of extra care and for what? If you like the look spare the snake and buy a naked mole rat. LOL
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Tosha

"Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed." Don Wood

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

I know I should keep my mouth shut, but.....

Now I don't much like the attitude of this guy but,

He is doing nothing different then any of you morph/mutant breeders. He is breeding mutants just like you!

You can say what you want about it, "it doesn't hurt a snake to be an albino", "but they look soooooo cool", what ever you want to say. THEY ARE ALL MUTANTS!!!!!

That said I don't realy like this snake, and the person who has it could use better people skills, that goes with out saying. I just don't like it when someone puts down someone else for doing the same damm thing they are doing.

Would I breed it? no, I don't like it.
would I buy one ? no, I don't like it.
Would I put down anyone who does? HELL NO, not my place too.

Bottom line ALL morphs are mutants. There is NO DIFFERENCE!

Have a good day!

Actually it's not the same - we breed for different phenotypes (looks) - no different than breeding for blonde hair and blue eyes in humans. This guy is breeding for a physical deformity like no arms or legs. A snakes scales and heat pits are necessary for their survival. Big difference.

But you ar right about everything else.
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Tosha

"Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed." Don Wood

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

We don't know for sure what all the effects of deformities like lacking the chemicals to make dark pigment are. At this point enough people have bred albino ball pythons that we would probably know if there was a big negative effect on their health but not for sure. The big difference is that based on looks we tend to guess this deformity MIGHT be more detrimental than say caramel but we really don't know yet. I personally wouldn't invest a money in this project without more info but then I tend to be pretty conservative to start with and am getting more and more that way the more I learn about this industry.

We don't know, but just as there are some illnesses, anomolies, etc. that are more prone to certain races or sexes in humans I'm sure that would also hold true for snakes. But we don't know for sure. Maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't a snake without scales or exposed skin be more prone to skin diseases, blisters, irritations, etc. I can't imagine that thier skin could provide the same protection for them as scales, against rodent bites and scratches, parasites, etc. I would also assume they would be more prone to burns than a snake with scales. Their belly scales are a huge part of their locomotion, are they able to move normally? Are they able to properly grip their prey? I can't even begin to think what else their scales would be used for holding in heat or keeping out moisture or for their metabolism????? And what about the lack of heat pits, are they able to identify prey - probably by smell but would you want to put a live rat in with something that has so little protection against possible bites or scratches that wouldn't be able to properly judge the prey? Will it recognize F/T by smell alone?? Are they able to properly thermoregulate without pits? Too many unanswered questions.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but it seems to me that your putting the snake up to bat with two strikes against him.
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Tosha

"Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed." Don Wood

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

like I said I never thought about a snake without scales before.

But that is a damm fine point, I am sure a rat will do way MORE damage to a snake with out scales.

Have a good day

For now we are going to have to guess how this anomaly might affect this snake. I suppose other species with the scaleless mutation might help to make the most informed guess however it's still a guess until someone works with this animal and probably a descendent or two and reports back. One of my points is that a few of the supposedly harmless color and pattern mutations apparently can have deeper impact and after years of breeding the public is only just finding out about those so we are way too early to really know much of anything about the effects of being scaleless.

Those are good points in your first post. We dont breed to reproduce the spinner trait nor the others. But we do reproduce them and they are sold usually. But you have some bad points in this reply. It is way different than breeding for hair or eye color. Blonde hair and blue eyes is a natural thing in humans. In ball pythons an albino, piebald, or spider isn't common. And most likely wouldn't survive long in the wild. And regardless of how you want to think about it. The phenotypes you breed are no differnet than the scaleless trait. They are all mutants. What do snakes in captivity need there scales or heat pits for? Will it hurt them not to have them?

It is way different than breeding for hair or eye color. Blonde hair and blue eyes is a natural thing in humans. In ball pythons an albino, piebald, or spider isn't common.

Just because it isn't common, doesn't mean its not natural. Those two terms are NOT mutually exclusive for oen thing, and for two thing, all the traits originated in nature to begin with.

Did I say it wasnt natural? I said not common. I was just making a point that its not that same as breeding for hair color. How many humans do you know that are trying to reproduce sickle cell, dwarfism, or albinism?

I kind of agree with you, I do think not having scales or heat pits is a BAD thing, in the wild. I have no idea if it is in a cage, I have never even thought about it to tell the truth.

But an albino in the wild would be a BAD thing too, In a cage it's just fine(and very nice to look at too).

Yea there is a difference between not having scales, and not having the chemical to make black. But they are both snakes that are MISSING something.

Like I siad before I wouldn't have it, But I wouldn't put down anyone who does.

Have a good day

I always thought that all boids had thermal receptor cells imbedded in the front of their faces and most of them were NOT covered with scales so that they could sense temp changes without the scales getting in the way and damping down the reception (which is why they are called 'PITS'). SO, why is everyone considering this mutant to be thermally challenged because it doesn't have scales where every other normal ball python in the world ALSO does not have scales?????

Just wanted to bring that up.

Mark

>> SO, why is everyone considering this mutant to be thermally challenged because it doesn't have scales where every other normal ball python in the world ALSO does not have scales?????

Mark ball pythons have heat pits (the crevices around the upper lip) this snake does not have any heat pits. This may interfer with it's heat seeking needs.
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Tosha

"Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed." Don Wood

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

OK, maybe I'm not being clear? Why do people think this snake does not have any heat receptor CELLS just because it doesn't have the 'pits' that usually surround them?

Its not clear as to whether or not he does have any heat receptors, or if (in the case that he does) they work with the precision and accuracy that would be needed to survive. It's my understanding that the heat signals are funnled through the pits and then sent to the brain (I could be wrong I'm not an anatomy expert) if this is the case that would be greatly affected by lack of the pit. Like I said I could be wrong but it would be something that I would be concerned about. But I still think the darn thing is photoshopped.
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Tosha

"Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed." Don Wood

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

I guess I've always understood that the thermal receptors in boids were in the skin of the nose and the pits were a way of uncovering those portions so that there were no scales blocking the heat. In a scaleless snake the thermal receptors may be even more sensitive since larger areas are uncovered. If you look at the picture, you can clearly see where the snake has a series of ridges and valleys on it's nose where it would normally have pits and scales. Personally I doubt that the loss of it's head scales would have any effect on it's heat sensing ability.

As far as the looks of the animal. I've seen scaleless snakes before, they really do look that weird so I doubt that it's been photoshopped. As far as keeping a snake like that myself, well, I can't really see spending any kind of money on it, but I'd probably take one if someone gave it to me. (of course we all know the likelyhood of that happening) It would make an interesting project strictly for my own amusement.

Mark

>>Its not clear as to whether or not he does have any heat receptors, or if (in the case that he does) they work with the precision and accuracy that would be needed to survive. It's my understanding that the heat signals are funnled through the pits and then sent to the brain (I could be wrong I'm not an anatomy expert) if this is the case that would be greatly affected by lack of the pit. Like I said I could be wrong but it would be something that I would be concerned about. But I still think the darn thing is photoshopped.
>>-----
>>Tosha
>>
>>"Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed." Don Wood
>>
>>
>>7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
>>1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
>>0.0.1 Green Tree Python
>>0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
>>0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
>>2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
>>0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

Just think if Justin found an eyeless Ball in Africa. Mix the Derma ball with an eyeless, then top it off by breeding it to a Leucistic. Big BIG Money!

/end sarcasm

Honestly, I think think the Derma ball looks pathetic. I imagine a few people would want one, but I don't see a huge market for it (thankfully). Now if he found one that could grow hair... THAT would be cool.

is for this animal to end up in the hands of a responsible breeder. There are a lot of questions about its health that need to be determined by careful observation.

I wish this little cutie (yes, I think he's adorable) had been born to better circumstances than get picked up by an importer who wants nothing more than a quick buck and a big name....

Yes, I think it should be bred, but it should be bred to determine if ALL the deformities are genetic. If it was a heat stressed egg, are all the deformities heritable on the same gene? I think ALL the babies should be kept by this "responsible breeder" (is there one out there?) until these questions, and the ones brought up by previous posts are answered, so that a possibly detrimental defect isn't passed on to future generations without careful consideration.

Very well put Alinda! I agree 100%

www.jasballpythons.com.

You probably saw that the post was anonymous so you thought you'd take it upon yourself to claim it as your own....
Unless I see some other pics to prove its yours...I'll keep believin that you're just tryin to make a name for yourself with someone elses snake that chooses to remain anonymous....
have a nice day
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Luke Martin
Bronze Serpent Reptiles