Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Now I know ya'll are probally tried of hearing about this snake but I have been gone and I just now looked at the pictures, so forgive me. I haven't read all the posts about this snake so I'm not sure if this point has been made or not, but it would be cruel to pass this gene on. Scaleless snakes do exist in the wild but they usually do not live long. They do shed like other snakes but their skin is also very sensitive. Snakes have scales for a reason! I say raise this snake and give it as much love as you can, but please don't breed it. If it is genetic then you're just going to have a lot of suffering snakes just so you can make a buck. Think about the animals. If you're breeding snakes for money, you're in the wrong buisness. Please think about what I said, and sorry if this point has been made already.
Thanks,
James

... a Red Husky is a "morph", a three legged husky is a deformity. Scaleless snakes have a deformity, not the next big money maker. Please don't "experiment" with this gene.
Thanks again,
James

This has nothing to do with your post....im just replying to everyone in general.........so no offense....

Ok.........so obviously everyone either likes or dislikes this snake.............its quite obvious....as it seems to be the biggest attention getter on K.S......and it hasent even been posted recently....and were all still talking about it............anyway.........

As for it being a "Weak Genetic Deformity" I beg to differ........this snake is the equivalent of Hairless aniamls....i.e. hairless cats/rats/dogs etc..........Yes it may have soft skin.........so what........how many of you have seen scaled snakes with scars..........stuff happens.........

You dont hear PETA telling breeders to stop making SPYNX cats or hairless rats..........they dont have problems.....As a matter of fact..i also breed hairless rats........and they are quite strong aniamls................

Anyway./.......enough ranting.........

I love that snake.............and id love to see soem scaless color morphs to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jared H

Sorry to argue but peta want all captive breeding ended!
Anyone catch there recent advertising for the nutering of all cats and dogs?

How about Nutering PETA instead?
-----
Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

Actually I disagree. I have also been breeding hairless rats for the last 8 or so years and they are significantly weaker than their haired cousins. Strong hairless rats in my experience are only produced by hairless to het or het to het breeding. I know several people that work with scaleless albino western diamondback rattlesnakes and they are not equally as strong as their scaled counterparts. As far as if they will be big sellers, who knows. None of the other scaleless snakes have ever become a big deal, just oddities. It is sort of cool and sort of gross all at the same time. Douglas Beard / Flora & Fauna

The reason they are weaker is because of the inbreeding. Thats why het to het are stronger....

Raul

The genotype of all Douglas' hairless rats would be the same as far as the hairless gene is concerned. It wouldn't mater if they came from het X het, or het X homozygous, or homozygous X homozygous - all the hairless ones are homozygous hairless. If the hairless rats from out-breeding projects are better it's because of other genes they either got rid of or picked up through the out-breeding - not the hairless gene.

Now if the hairless gene does have some secondary ill effect then it could get a little more complicated. While you would expect to see the problems in all hairless rats regardless of their pedigree you might eventually accidentally pick up a separate gene to compensate in out-breeding. But if you are consistently seeing better results with out-breeding then the problems in the original colony where almost certainly due to more than just the hairless gene.

I did read about hairless Syrian hamster female's not being able to nurse their young as an apparent side effect of the hairless gene it's self. For this reason they use only het females and probably do a fair amount of incidental out-breeding but I don't know if they still see other problems associated with the hamster version of the hairless gene or not.

I did find an interesting (but old) article today about a scaleless snake being found not to cool/heat convectively or dehydrate quicker than a normal one. Maybe the scales are primarily to protect against rough environments or (since their bodies are down in them) or even ants or biting flies or something in the wild.

It’s also interesting to see the variations in scaleless snakes and to note that none of them have become common place yet. It may be like albino in that a number of different things can go wrong producing slightly different scaleless versions. Maybe some of these have had problems that have held them back from becoming popular in the pet trade.
Article

It's definately unusual.

My only concerns would be it has no pits?

and I would only feed dead prey to it, a mouse
or rat bite to the skin could cause serious damage.

would love to see a scaleless piebald though.

-karl

How do you know their skin is sensitive? Do they tell you that? J/K

If this snake is eating then its happy! Albinos dont live long in the wild either.

Granted alot of work needs to be put in to make sure the animal will reproduce/eat/and most of all live a comfortable life.

Its great how EVOLUTION works isnt it!

off topic, but you started.. this is a deformity, loss of information and far from being something that is supposed to "progress" the animal to anything better.. it is actually much worst.. in the wild, being scaleless is by far a disadvantage... this mutation has nothing to advantage the animal's well being or survival as with all other mutations...

Best Wishes,
Bristen.

>>How do you know their skin is sensitive? Do they tell you that? J/K
>>
>>If this snake is eating then its happy! Albinos dont live long in the wild either.
>>
>>Granted alot of work needs to be put in to make sure the animal will reproduce/eat/and most of all live a comfortable life.
>>
>>Its great how EVOLUTION works isnt it!

You don't see people euthanizing albinos and piebalds and other mutants, just because they are deformed.

I want to produce the first scale less, glow in the dark, albino piebald.

How do you know its not a new evolutionary route? Playing "god" arent you......passing judgement like that.

Even though I do not agree that this animal should be considered a desirable morph...

Everything I read on Ball Pythons mentions they are considered a "primitive" snake. Who knows? Maybe the lack of heat pits is a leap forward in evolution...and not a step backward.

Just A Thought,
Chris

PS -- As I've said before, isolate the scaleless gene and I'd love to breed the animal...as long as the heat pits are normal. =)
-----
"You find that crazy typewriter...and you'll have your kidnappers."
-- Harry Crumb, Private Investigator

Why aren't all ball pythons albino's? Leuistics? Piebalds?

Why are most ball pythons, most snakes for that matter, darkly colored with a leaf like pattern?

It's all about survival of the fittest and more importantly reproduction by the fittest (or those that appear to be the fittest). If, for a reason we can't fathom, being scaleless has some advantage, then they will reproduce more. Why aren't all ball pythons albino's? Because they are more easily seen by predators. Why then has the gene survived? Either it is, evolutionary speaking, a rather new gene or it survives because a few male albino's survive long enough to mate with females. I say males because they reproduce at a much younger age.

If you think it is so terrible and unhealthy, then why are you not up in arms for Pugs or dachshunds or teacup breeds of dogs? Each of these breeds has been modified through selective breeding to have traits that we find desirable yet are quite unheathly for the animal itself.

Matt

(steps off his soapbox)

As environments change so do the animals.

I think of the captivity as just a new environment - with new selection pressures. For example, the spider gene has been wildly successful in the captive environment and has been propagating exponentially.

If scaleless ball pythons are fit enough (and genetic) to reproduce at all we’ll find out if they are well fitted for the captive bred marketplace or not (hardy and desirable etc.).

So you base an animal's "happiness" on its readiness to feed? Do you really think it is that simple?

For the most part yes. When im pissed of i dont eat!

Of course its not that simple, but when you cant hear the animal scream then you have to go by what you can see.

I am simply amazed at the number of responses concerning the lack of scales. Doesn't anyone care about the lack of heat pits? The lack of scales seem rather inconsequential compared to the heat pit issue.

The lack of scales does seem to compare to a hairless cat. Okay. Fine.

The lack of heat pits seems a bit more serious.

Maybe I'm missing something here...

Chris
-----
"You find that crazy typewriter...and you'll have your kidnappers."
-- Harry Crumb, Private Investigator

np
-----
Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

In my post below I address both issues and I do think that they are both problems, until research (on this species) proves otherwise you have to address it as a problem you cannot go on speculation.

I dont think not having scales is the same as not having hair - scales have much more use and are much more important to a snake than say hair does to a cat or person. It'd be more like missing your upper dermal layer (the top layer of your skin). How would you feel without it? The pits or lack there of is another issue which I also addressed and spare you that again.

Fact is that no one really knows what these deformities actually do to the snake. I keep reading "Does it eat s**t and shed?" Is that really all you are concerned about? What happened to quality of life?
-----
Tosha

"Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed." Don Wood

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

Alas, no more signature quote by the infamous CJBianco.

Me =/
-----
"You find that crazy typewriter...and you'll have your kidnappers."
-- Harry Crumb, Private Investigator

Yeah why did you get rid of his quote?... no whoops wrong question- Is there ANYONE that can tell us if this thing is eating/shedding, etc? I mean maybe other senses can cover the lack of heat pits but do we know if they are or if this thing is even still alive? It could still could be a photoshop trick - but so could all of us for that matter.
-----
Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

I am bald and it is not easy in cold or hot temps.
But I have hair on the sides.......
I know who my dady was.
-----
RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

>
>>
-----
Tosha

"Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed." Don Wood

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

So what are you saying? So what if I don't know who my father is??? What does that have to do with the pitless snake? (said with complete jest)
-----
Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

Look I am overweight too!
Wear glasses. Had my teeth capped too!
But I am so happy I was permitted to breed!
-----
RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

np
-----
Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

thats a good one

The scales where the pits should be are missing. But I think it still can feel heat.

This snake is just as wierd as a lucy....

There are people that wont buy spiders cause they spin.

There are people that wont buy womas cause pearls are screwed.

There are people that wont buy caramels cause they are kinked.

There are people that wont buy black pastels cause the supers are deformed....

But there are people that still do buy these mutations and still love them. I am one of those people.

If you dont like the scaleless dont get into the project. But dont hate on the people that do get into the project.

The only thing that I disagree with in all this crazy crap is how this guy presented himself. He came off like a jerk and he didnt have to...

This post isnt directed to just Chris. So please dont think im trying to bash you buddy...

Raul

"The scales where the pits should be are missing."

The scales? The heat pits themselves are missing! LOL =)

Chris
-----
"I'm funny? I'm funny how? Funny like a clown? I amuse you? I make you laugh? I'm here to f***in' amuse you?" -- Tommy DeVito

Maybe it's just all one pit now? I wonder if the scales are to focus the input to the sensors at the bottom so that they can best pick up on the direction by comparing the heat sensed at the bottom of adjacent and slightly differently aimed pits. I also wonder if they mainly rely on heat pits when feeding in total darkness at the bottom of a hole and perhaps some of the more modern snakes that don't have them tend not to feed this way as much.

pro choice or pro life?.....

........point has been made

breed the snot out of it....

make a lot of money

$
$
$

you would too....................
-----
wow.....did you think of that all by yourself?.....
better take a break ................

"breed the snot out of it..."

LMAO

Thanks for the chuckle...

Chris

(RANDOM MOVIE MEMORY: "I'm funny? I'm funny how? Funny like a clown? I amuse you? I make you laugh? I'm here to f***in' amuse you?"
-----
"You find that crazy typewriter...and you'll have your kidnappers."
-- Harry Crumb, Private Investigator

n/p

But does it have nostrils to do such a thing?

LOL!

All about the moolah$$, I agree. Funny thing is though, given the reaction of a GOOD percentage of people here, I would think that there are PLENTY of other morphs that would be a lot better investment than a scaleless Ball. I wouldn't sink over $500 into a snake where over 1/2 the customer base is disgusted with the product. Right or wrong, I ain't passing judgement, I see it as a poor investment, relative to all the other morphs out there.

Have fun though. You should be able to hook SOMEONE with more dollars than....

You make a good point -- but it appears you left out a group, I'd say it's split 3 ways - 1/3 like it, 1/3 think it's ok but wouldn't want it in their collection and 1/3 are repulsed by it. How good of an investment could a snake be if 2/3 of it's target audience wouldn't buy it for cheap. Maybe if Paris Hilton were holding while washing a Bently!?!? I don't know. I fall into the category of thinking it should be raised by a compentant breeder until it dies, not bred exploited and god forbid those genes passed down to something I might buy.
-----
Tosha

"Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed." Don Wood

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

May-be you should stop looking at a living thing as an invstiment, and enjoy just having it, Just an idea.

Have a good day!

Stop telling people what they should and should not be concerned with and just worry about the stuff that affects YOU. The guy came on and said this such-and-such Ball, and its like this, and like that, etc etc, He gave his opinion, and so did everyone else (although a lot of people were a bit rude I think).

But who the he!! are you? The forum police? The content of the thread includes both ethics and economics. I don't discuss ethics with people online because its a dead end, so I commented on the economics. What's wrong with that forum Nazi?

"But who the he!! are you? The forum police? The content of the thread includes both ethics and economics. I don't discuss ethics with people online because its a dead end, so I commented on the economics. What's wrong with that forum Nazi?"

"No snake for you!" ..."next!"
-----
Charles Glaspie

Helllllo Newmannnn..

:-0

No definately NOT the forum police, I wouldn't want that job!!!!

and I did say it was JUST AN IDEA.

Have a good day!

I didn't mean to stur up this much emotion, sorry. Now someone mentioned that hairless rats are weaker due to inbreeding, the way I see it these "new" scaleless snakes ain't going to be any different. He's going to bred to a normal, then he's going to bred to his daughter... or maybe a son to a sister, whatever. The point I'm trying to make is that this is a bad idea. I'm again line breeding. I don't care if I just imported the greatest morph in history, I would not breed it until another one was found. As far as I'm concerned the snakes come first. Money is no reason to put snakes health at risk. If I owned this snake I would not breed him. If another was found I MIGHT think about it. Don't get me wrong, the snake is cute. But there is way too much line breeding in his future. I really hope this post dosen't end up like my last one.
Thanks,
James

Of course first he has to prove fertile, then the scaleless has to prove genetic (sounds like there might be precedence for this), and then it would need to be recessive for your inbreeding argument to come in to play. There is probably a fair chance all of those will fall into place but then you just have the same situation as with every other recessive morph. I think almost every one of them has been started with at least one generation of inbreeding. Piebald might be an exception as I think the first cb piebald was from wild caught adult piebalds but for all we know they might have been related and I'm sure some line breeding has been done by someone by now.

I'm not saying inbreeding is good but it's done a lot and almost always to see if a new morph is even genetic. He'll probably start off by breeding this guy to his reported mother and some presumed unrelated normals. If this does end up being a recessive morph I suppose the mixed feelings of the public as to it's desirability might encourage inbreeding of a by a small number of breeders to work with it but I really don't think the inbreeding argument differentiates it substantially from any other recessive morph.