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Yes I'm a happy camper..all three were on the move in 82* and between 9am and 10 am weather. cloudy and humid night befores low was 73* but the timing was just right.. the first humid warm hight in may to see more pic go to the hogs fourm

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Why would you collect a species that has been documented as declining? Just wondering!

Zac

I thought they were protested in all of their range now.

sorry if your offended tom but the sad reality is that if people keep building on the limited land that these snakes need to survive they will all be gon in 10 -20 years but also fier ants are decimating there numbers as well as cars dogs and people that think they are pigmy rattle sankes, so I thing that it should be the objective for every snake lover to find there rare species and make more because their decline has gone from 0 - 60 in the past ten years....

It's easy to justify your collecting declining species. "If I don't get them, somebody/something else will!" I hope we can do something to change that attitude - education is the only hope I suppose.

Taking herps in areas that are already under pressure is no excuse. You may have collected the genetic maaterial that would have survived. I know you paint a pretty picture - that your doing it for conservation's sake - but one thing you have to keep in mind - NO herps raised in captivity ever make it in the wild - never happens.

When I was young I heard this excuse frequently - we're collecting to learn about the species, so we can captive breed and maintain a captive breeding colony. I know now its just an excuse we tell ourselves in order to defend our selfish behavior.

Snake people don't care about conservation until it interfears with there selfish desires. Thats just the way it is I'm afraid.... too bad to.

The argument can also be said that if "none" are collected and being bred then even more will be aquired by collecting from the wild. I'm not going to agree or disagree on the subject. But it does seem that some of you are actually mad about his success.
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Steve W.

Oh heavens... I certainly don't feel in any way competitive. I think people pursue rare snakes because they themselves feel somehow more important because they have "important" snakes in their possession. To me it's a type of ego disease, nothing to be admired!

But to snatch a threatened species out of the wild is the epitome of huberus. Really unforgivable unless your a child, which may be the case here.

It has been years since I have posted on this forum but your statement that no one releases herps raised in captivity back into the wild has promted me to do so. I do not know what the intentions of the guy that found the southern hognose is or what he based his judgement on. I do know there are those like myself that have been breeding locality herps and releasing the resulting offspring back to the field for years. I could sell these offspring but that is not my interest. All inclusive statements like yours are both erroneous and an insult. - Phil

Phil, let me add my experience to yours. There is a captive hatch head-start program being performed by F&W in my state (see photo of hatchling below). I would say that wholly discounting the value of captive populations is wrong. That being said I think it will be a long time before re-establishment programs become widespread. There is definitely a scepticism out there about them and alot more has to be done to show their value. Which means the sooner it gets evaluated the better!

Regards
John Firneno

... that in some states/locales it may be illegal to release ANY animal into the wild. I realize that some are working with F&W or whatever and have the necessary documents and permits, but for the "average Joe" it maybe not feasible.
One of my fears is to have someone release a strain of hypo Florida kings (name any other species/morph here) near his place with the intent of being able to find them in the future.
Don't think for a minute that hasn't occurred.
I have heard of releases all over including some that are hybrids.
If this hobby ever takes a big hit, I feel it will be because of similar stunts.
It is sad that the good work of many may be done in by the antics of a few.
:Mark

Good for you for trying Phil. Do you do any follow up surveys to see what survival rates your getting? Studies I've seen show abysmal results. I think there is promise in this area - but little research currently makes it less than impressive. I hope you did better.

But my over all point is simple: People have made conservation excuses for many decades as to why they are taking herps from the wild. I had to listen to these non-sense arguements back in the day gecko import days - as if any extracted from Madagascar would ever make it back to the wilds there. But hey, it made people who were raping the wilds feel better, so we had to listen to it a lot!

Keep in mind that releasing captive snakes back into the wild can also whipe out wild populations. You may be doing more harm than good.
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Steve W.

...the opposite is true. The released c.b. cannot tolerate the wild conditions and exposure to parasites etc. and die anyway.
I would think there are times when release is a no win situation.
Much more research is needed to come up with good plans and protocol I guess.
:Mark

it works like a charm!!!! The best examples I can think of are the head-started sea turtles. From what I've read they've really boosted the survival rate for hatchlings in the wild populations

It's really a matter of scientifically figuring out what will work and then doing it consistently and on a large enough scale to make a difference.

And in cases like the California Condor it's the only chance for survival.

Think Positive!
John

I still think your a lil niehive as far as the rapid declining number of pinesnakes diamondbacks and southern and eastern hognose in florida. when I was kid all were seen often and now I go years without seeing them, their decline went from 0- 60 mph a longtime ago and you think their going to survive in the wild ...brother your mistaken! I spend alot of time in the woods and If you had seen what i have ( landloss , homeowners killing , and their worst enimies pigs and fireants) they dont stand a chance, and all you thought in the past has changed reguarding these species I've mentioned, and just so you know I only breed the snakes becouse there on the decline not becouse I want them as pets and i never let them go in the wild to be run over anyway, i give them to willing and educated folks that are concerned as i am and again I did not pick them for looks I collect them so they will still be around in 20 years because I know they will be gone soon.

I was not offended at all.I just thought they were protected thoughout their range.I guess that is not the case because I saw one for sale from fl today.I wish I could get san fran garters myself.I can't keep or breed them.But still to this day they will build roads over top of them.

Pastel perfection. Breed those. Be damned if you don't...

Excellent finds! Congrats!!

Much easier to keep than easterns (at least they'll take rodents easier

Chris

And even if they aren't...Why collect more than a pair, or even a pair?

The fact of the matter is that Heterodon are very sensitive species when they are on the decline, as simus are. They do not share the common ecological reproductive traits with other snakes. Simus are few and far between and their numbers are very low. Think about the three snakes that you took. They were all adults and represent a large chunk of the imediate breeding population of that area. They dont breed like other snakes, they have a much smaller chance to acutally find a mate than other snakes do. If you subtract a few adults from the mix, you will have just screwed a population.

Wow everyone is arguing here. I guess and argument can be made for either side. I agree that simus is on a decline. It's probably one of the rarest snakes in the country because of it. The hard choice is do we collect some so they will still exist in captivity just in case they can no longer be found in the wild? Or do we let nature run it's course and see what happens. If the contractors and developers would stop building it would help the cause, but we know they won't. If someone were to collect them for captive propagation they would obviously need sexual pairs. It would do more harm to collect just one in the hopes of finding a mate for it then to find them as the poster did.
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Steve W.

I am a 16 year old kid who as seen in just my life time a decline in all snakes in me area when i first moved here in 1994 i would see many more snakes ,snakes like hognose and diamond backed rattlesnakes. i would see 2or3 ayear hognoses or diamond back and now at has been 2or3 years since i have seen a hognose or diamond backed rattlesnake and i go looking with my friends every weekend for 4or5 hours and the last diamond back i found was at construction site not in a state park. i would like to here some ideas that some of you may have to help this snakes not just the ones by your house so any ideas
please take this seriously

You make some good points Steve. But I must disagree that in order to save the wild population of simus, we must breed them. There are already plenty of breeders with simus who can keep the species alive in captivity. The simple fact is that we as herpers must unite and use our numbers to sway our political leaders. History will show that no cultural minority achieves its goals without working hard to gain public support. If we were to start writing letters to our representitives, campaigning to gain public support, and educating people on the importance of herps, we would start to make a dent in the conservation of herps. In my humble opinion, collecting a trio of these snakes has no merritt and despite much effort to justify it, can only be passed off as one's desire to own a rare snake.

-dead

I agree with what you say. Unfortunately, most law makers are in someone's pocket. In this case the developers pockets. In my state (N.J.) this is certainly the case. If laws are made on a federal level the states have the ability to overide the feds, depending on the situation. This is rediculous in my opinion. Hopefully things will change some day.
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Steve W.