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After getting permission from the photographer who took these, I decided I would post them here. Not many believe that a ringneck snake can, or will eat a kingsnake, though some know first hand. It seems ringneck snakes eating kingsnakes has gotten just a tad bit more interesting. As most of you know, kingsnakes often eat other snakes, even venomous ones, and are not affected in anyways by the venom. But it seems that is not the case with ringneck snakes, it seems as if their venom, does infact paralyze or kill a kingsnake.

When the photographer came upon the scene, it was in the middle of the day, he stuck around for an hour to photograph the event. When he got there, the kingsnake was not moving at all. I'll sure those of you that have fed snakes to non venomous snakes, know that the prey snake will go down "kicking and screaming". So why was the kingsnake not fighting back? Paralyzed? Dead? It almost has to be something of that nature.

20" Coral Belled Ringneck Snake, eating a 14" Mountain Kingsnake. Photos by Gerold Merker.

No need to post bad comments about me or about this post. I warned you ahead of time...

Mike

Michael's Place

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Thats pretty interesting. I dont mind seeing pics of snakes eating other snakes as it happens in the wild. Im just not a big fan of catching snakes and feeding them to ones own snakes. But coming across a snake eating one in the wild does make for a nice set of pics, and it happens more often than one would think.
Brian
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Wow how neat maybe the ringneck killed it first thats why it wasnt fighting back.

I would have stomped that Ringneck, cut it up, and used it to scent pinks for baby kingsnakes.

Michael, just so you know, when Blueking, WesternNC, and I went field herping last month in the Sandhills we did something in your honor: We caught a bunch of Ringnecks and fed them to our Eastern Kings.
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com
peterjolles@eastcoastcolubrids.com

...if you did this, it would be most interesting. Others have reported common kings being kiled by consuming ringnecks...I doubt that is true....as enough time has gone by that kings would recognize that scent as being a non-starter. Id really like to know how Micrurus responds to S ringnecks...
I do know & will share this...getulus neonates are fearful of adult regalis.
I also know how [limited by a small sampal size] regalis act when scenting neonate getulus.
I also have a minimal data set for what happens when a getulus is envenomated by a particular opisthoglyph....all good stuff for a future pt in time...

.

I've witnessed firsthand a ringneck bite a Florida kingsnake on glottis (air passage) and the snake being unable to free itself. I ended up pulling the ringneck off the king after I noticed, but the king was in pretty bad shape as a result. Crimsonking told me a similar story, but the king involved was a Cal.

Thats anecdotal and I dont buy it . Think about the accuracy a Ringneck would have to have to nail a glottis when its about to be eaten. I just think that was circumstance unless there is evidence Ringnecks have evolved a higher intelligence in that they can nail a throat like a Lion hunting a gazzelle. I had a Outer Banks that was near death from not eating . At the same time I had a Yellowtail Cribo that only wanted snake to eat. So I gave him the doomed OBK and what happened was the OBK bite the cribo on tne top half of his head and wrapped around his neck. He was literally taking down a snake 5 times bigger than himself.If I hadnt stepped in he may have killed the YT. Now does this mean all baby Kings will go about taking down a bigger predator down this way ? No way it got lucky and thats all just like the Ringneck you saw.

Keith
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Be careful feeding ringnecks to kings, as Nick stated they can kill a bigger king in the manner he mentioned. While I don't have pics or literary documentation, I do know a guy that had his prized coral snake killed by a "feeder" ringneck. (I know, not a king snake but thought it might be relevant here.)

Personally I would never attempt to feed a ringneck to any of my prized kings. Anecdotal or not, I just wouldn't take the chance.

kk

I have never witnessed the ringneck/king feeding but I have witnessed a cal king killing and eating a rattlesnake a couple of times here in Arizona. Not in the wild, but rather putting both together. And both times the rattlesnake was extrememly nervous and wanting to run as the cal king came up to the rattlesnake and grabbed the rattlesnake under the neck, preventing the rattlesnake from biting the cal king. The cal king also put numerous coils immediately on the rattlesnake.

So, although the cal king may be immune to the rattlesnake's bite, the cal king still preferred to hunt like a lion LOL

Kerby...

Michael, that may be good - neonate kings may "fear" ringnecks but I bet that baby Rodan's good beat up baby Godzilla's.

Just food for thought.
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com
peterjolles@eastcoastcolubrids.com

Michael, just so you know, when Blueking, WesternNC, and I went field herping last month in the Sandhills we did something in your honor: We caught a bunch of Ringnecks and fed them to our Eastern Kings.

I hope you got pics!

If you don't care that ringnecks are feeders(I don't), feel free to send about a hundred to a friend of mine in Florida with a hungry coral snake.

Mike
Michael's Place

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well let me first say ringnecks are what they are($#!tsnakes) on the other hand kings are royalty so now with that said im not real familiar with ringneck toxicicty and i dont beleive its a venom per'se so much as a toxic enzyme they secrecte(like toads) in musk and possibly by mouth but i will say the ones here in e.tx (mississippi ssp. i think) are toxic to kings ive done it(fed) 3 times and all 3times the kings easily took the ringnecks down no problem but all 3times within 48/72 hrs. had regurged the rings and were deadfor no obvious reasons 2where l.g.splendida and 1 l.g.holbrooki all 3 kings were very healthy prior to feeding sad/strange but i dont/wont do it anymore whats really bizarre is ive seen a l.g.splendida eat a tx.coral and lived/thrived for manymany years.,but venom,in ringnecks HA just toxic comparable to poison ivy or frog/toad secrection ,,,,,,,dream-on
thomas davis

Go get a regal ringneck snake, and a similar sized garter snake. Put them together, get a stopwatch, and when the regal bites the garter, start the stopwatch. Watch what happens to the garter a couple minutes after the bite. You'll be amazed...

Mike
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look micheal i understand you like ringnecks but to think they are venomous is ok to i guess since ALL snakes have some venom per'se but think its there venom that killed that lil pyro is rediculous im sure it was strangulation or the pyro was already sickly/wounded or dying, you have to admit thats possible if this was indeed a wild situation captured on film, the regals out west are much larger than ours here in houston&e.tx. and are powerful predators, but come'on whats that a 20 inch ringneck to a 15inchpyro yeah,,,so,,,,any GETULA ANY ONE of equal size will take a ringneck down and eat it. plain and simple but like i stated earlier the kings ive seen do this w/ mississsippi ssp rings anyway did die within 3days but also as i stated its MHO its cuz they are toxic like toad or frog secrecions and kings maybe nothin is immune to that again,,,so,,,
toxic maybe to an extent but venomous no
and if they are venomous explain the l.g.splendida eating a coral w/ no side effect aside from red/yellow/scales in its scat
are you implying that they are more or comparable in venom potency to coral snakes????
thomas davis

look micheal i understand you like ringnecks
Thomas, that really has nothing to do with this thread. I like kingsnakes just as much as I like ringneck snakes.

but think its there venom that killed that lil pyro is rediculous im sure it was strangulation or the pyro was already sickly/wounded or dying, you have to admit thats possible if this was indeed a wild situation captured on film

Yes that is a possibility definitely. But you are speaking about something you lack - experience with regal ringneck snakes and them eating.

the regals out west are much larger than ours here in houston&e.tx. and are powerful predators, but come'on whats that a 20 inch ringneck to a 15inchpyro yeah,,,so,,,,any GETULA ANY ONE of equal size will take a ringneck down and eat it.

Would you like to bet $$ on that?

and if they are venomous explain the l.g.splendida eating a coral w/ no side effect aside from red/yellow/scales in its scat
are you implying that they are more or comparable in venom potency to coral snakes????

There is actually something interesting about coral snake venom compared to regal ringneck snake venom. Not going to post it here though.

Mike
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QUOTE aWould you like to bet $$ on that? anytime,anyplace,anytime,anyplace,anytime anyplace any getula ssp. of EQUAL size anytime,,,,,,,,,

one more thing your old pics of the 20 inch ringneck eating the lil caliking that was maybe 15inches AINT gonna cut it equal size 20 inch getula to 20inch regal,,,,,,,,

I don't dislike ringneck snakes and think this is quite interesting.
I would like to see is SCIENTIFIC studies that back up your claims about the ringnecks venom and how it appliciable to their prey items.
Without these scientific studies to back your claims about ringneck snakes, it's all purely SPECULATION and not based on facts.
Can you please back up your claims about these ringneck snakes or base them on true actual scientific facts.
Uncloudy

Uncloudy, right now there a couple people working with ringneck snake venom. The data will all be published sometime in the near future.

Mike
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in 1985 or earlier Robert Stebbins recognized that Diadophis MAY be VENOMOUS to small animal prey and that they have enlarged rear upper teeth, so until they are PROVED NOT to be venomous the possibility is there, information source is WESTERN REPTILES and AMPHIBIANS,Robert C. Stebbins, pg. 175

Ok dude... i'm not trying bash you but that last post got me a lil upset... you posted earlier that you have facts but you won't bother posting it here, then when some requests some facts to back up the claim you say it's a work-in-progress

come on man... i wanted to see some facts, i just didn't wanna concern myself with this whole discussion

can you shed any light on the whole thing (facts pure facts) not speculation???

~ZF

according to Robert Stebbins professor of herpetology

western Repties and Amphibians pg.175 (field guide)

Jetzen anything is possible but that statement by Stebbins doesnt mean diddily squat without proof. There are no harder SOB's than the Scientific community when it comes to proof. So until some proof is posted or a study then its just idle speculation.

Keith
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may be "TOXIC" and possibly acts as an aid in subduing struggling prey" Alan St.John, Reptiles of the northwest.

I also read that the ringnecks cloacal contents are toxic.

Could this be why common kings croak three days after eating Diadophis?

More info will be posted in the correct forum.

>>Jetzen anything is possible but that statement by Stebbins doesnt mean diddily squat without proof. There are no harder SOB's than the Scientific community when it comes to proof. So until some proof is posted or a study then its just idle speculation.
>>
>>Keith
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>>

Not that I really want to support HerpHelmz in his little fight he instigated but I do have this to offer:

Snakes of the United States and Canada
Carl H. Ernst, Evelyn M. Ernst
2003, the Smithsonian Institution

This is an updated and expanded edition of Ernst's original (long out of print) Snakes of the Eastern North America, 1989.

Diadophis punctatus

page 96, 2nd column, lines 18-32:

"This snake is mildly venomous, with the enlarged posteriror teeth used to introduce toxic saliva into prey. The saliva is produced in a Duvernoy's gland with mixed serous and mucous cells (Taub 1967) and is 100% protein (Hill and Mackessy 1997). Typically a snake will produce 5-20 (mean, 10) ul (two samples pooled totaled 2.88 mg dry yield) (Hill and Mackessy 1997). Lizards usually become paralyzed in a few minutes; a Urosaurus ornatus bitten by a D. p. regalis stopped breathing 71 minutes later (Anton 1994; see also Predators and Defense). Myers (1965) and Shaw and Campbell (1974) reported bites of humans (perhaps from large D. punctatus) produced a burning sensation, but Henderson (1970) was bitten several times without experiencing discomfort."

page 97, column 1, lines 23-30:

A D. p. punctatus attacked by a captive Rhinocheilus lecontei remained motionless and allowed itself to be almost entirely swallowed before turning its head 90 degrees and biting the floor of the predator's mouth. The Diadophis held on for over 16 hours, during with the Rhinocheilus died, and the ring-necked snake emerged and crawled away on the 17th hour (Rossi and Rossi 1994).

Make of it what you will. I have always found Ernst's work to be a trustworthy source of natural history information.

Thanx for providing some facts.

~ZF

Thanks for the info dr.pepper, now the non-believers have something to think about.

Thanks for the info. Thats all I asked for was some proof or citing of some research. Thanks again.

Keith
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.

Some people got offended with the ringneck eating the zonata but it did have alot of crossovers. LOL Cool pics.

I dont doubt that every now and then the sun shines on a dogs ass but a ringneck eating a hatchling Mt King isnt that impressive when mountain Kings are lizard eaters and the one getting eaten is a juvenile. They are Kings in name only and are more like Milks than Kings. It aint like its taking down a Big Cal King or a Eastern King. Also that hatchling might have been dead when the ringneck came upon him ? Its a possibility and I would like to know how toxic ringnecks are and what tolerance do Kings have to their "venom" ? Any research at all ? I realize you like Ringnecks and I think they are cool as well but you seem to be trying to sell the fact that Ringnecks are tougher than Kings. To think that is silly as Kings could eat a bunch of Ringecks like a bowl of Pasta ! lol Im just kiddin you a little here man but seriously Ill put up a hatchling Eastern King to a ringneck anyday. When I worked at a petshop long ago we got in an order of Reptiles that werent ours but I had to house them over the weekend at the store. In the order where some adult Ringnecks. One of my guys put the container they were in inside an enclosure that housed a 20" Desert King. Long story short the Ringnecks got out (3 of em) and ended up in the belly of the Desert King as he looked like a stuffed sausage the next day. To wrap it up Ringnecks while neat little snakes are not bad asses nor are they in the same class as a King as far as snake eating ability.

Keith
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Keith,

I understand, people like you and Peter, and the other kingsnake breeders are going to be upset over the pics, and for some reason the fact that a ringneck snake can take down a kingsnake upsets you. Not sure why though?

It was once thought that the kingsnakes(hence the name, king) were the dominant snake eaters in a wild population of snakes. But it's not like that. In the deserts of AZ, a regal ringneck snake can and will take down prey larger than itself, just like a kingsnake would.

Ringneck snakes(certain sub-species, such as regals) have a remarkable venom considering they are classified as non-venomous. I am not willing to share times and feeding trials on the forum, but if you want to continue on that note, feel free to email me.

A kingsnake in the wild would eat a ringneck if it came across it, and a ringneck would do the same, of course, if the king was sizeable. Someone once asked me if 2 small, hungry snakes, 1 regal and 1 king would come across each other, what would happen. Honestly, it's about whoever hits that first strike. Once a ringneck grabs another snake, it's on the neck usually, and it doesn't let go. After about 2 minutes of the prey snake struggling, the teeth usually cut the scales, and the venom sinks in, and it's over for the prey. All kingsnakes can is constrict, a technique I have witnessed ringnecks using as well.

Remember, I have had snake-eating eastern kings before, I've watched them feed on other snakes. I've watched regal ringneck snakes feed on other snakes. Eastern Kings are nowhere close to regals in how fast predator attacks prey.

Mike
Michael's Place

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:h

Supporting what Keith said, this same thing would not happen on the East coast (or at least far, far less likely) The Ringnecks are much smaller here and the Kings much larger. I have caught both...when I lived in Monterey 20 some years ago, I had a large Ringneck there (Pacific? Monterey?) and it ate a Sharp-tailed snake within an hour of being placed in the cage after being caught. Back on the East coast, I had a hatchling Eastern King not long after that, and it was a picky eater. I found an adult Ringneck in Connecticut and the baby Eastern King immediately grabbed it and killed it. The Ringneck was actually a bit longer than the King. There was no question which one was more dominant there.

as for mtn.king, well only the strong survive, one thing tho, in one of the pics the king looks to have his vent blown out like maybe a road kill? GREAT PICS ANYWAY!

The kings vent is like that because he is being eaten alive. I have seen a speckled king eat a garter in the wild, and the garter did the same thing. Probably pooing on himself!!! LOL
Brian

>>as for mtn.king, well only the strong survive, one thing tho, in one of the pics the king looks to have his vent blown out like maybe a road kill? GREAT PICS ANYWAY!
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

gonna retract my ridiculous statement just did'nt get around to it.

....People are usually surprised to find out that I own reptiles because I don't fit the stereotype of a reptile owner in their eyes. I usually end up explaining how rewarding and interesting they are to own and assure them that I am not just some sadistic loser that just likes to see a mouse suffocate to death. After reading some of the responses on this thread I understand where that stereotype comes from. I can see this juvenile "Superman can beat the Hulk" type banter coming from a 16yr old, pock marked, no friends looking to blow up his school teenager, but not from educated enthusiasts who can recite the scientific names and locales every species.

Who gives a sh-- what snake can kill another?? You guys should have an appreciation for all reptiles (all animals for that matter).

If this thread was a joke that went over my head, then I am the fool. If not, it may be time to sell my collection because the stereotype could be true.

take care
Jeff

I got the feeling some people believed the sizes of their manhoods would be determined by whose snake could eat the other. Silly stuff.

And for sure, there was too much "i'm sure of this" and not enough "i'm always willing to consider new ideas and willing to learn," which SHOULD be a part of any herper's attitude, if we're gonna move knowledge forward.

I thought the pix were interesting. I've expressed my opinion before that posting endless pix of snakes (always) eating while being held is sort of silly. But anything that happens in nature is worth observing, photographing, sharing, and considering. Thanks for posting them, Michael.

terry
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>>....People are usually surprised to find out that I own reptiles because I don't fit the stereotype of a reptile owner in their eyes. I usually end up explaining how rewarding and interesting they are to own and assure them that I am not just some sadistic loser that just likes to see a mouse suffocate to death. After reading some of the responses on this thread I understand where that stereotype comes from. I can see this juvenile "Superman can beat the Hulk" type banter coming from a 16yr old, pock marked, no friends looking to blow up his school teenager, but not from educated enthusiasts who can recite the scientific names and locales every species.
>>
>>Who gives a sh-- what snake can kill another?? You guys should have an appreciation for all reptiles (all animals for that matter).
>>
>>If this thread was a joke that went over my head, then I am the fool. If not, it may be time to sell my collection because the stereotype could be true.
>>
>>take care
>>Jeff

And I love mtn.kings more than any other snake.But this is nature at its best.Being able to see or come across something like this in the wild is very lucky. And also,thats not a pyro,its a zonata.And one of the better post I've seen on this kingsnake forum in a long time.Thanks Micheal for posting these pics and Gerold merker for letting him.Hey how abotu the suggestion it looks like roadkill..?,you think gerold Merker found a DOR zonata,took it hiking with him and found a ringneck and set them up..?,lol,come one.There will always be haters....
Jeff

You don't see that too often. While you know that I don't relish those types of pics, I will say those photos are pretty damn amazing. Thanks for sharing Mike.

Will

PS remember this pic of Whitey eating a baby eastern, er...just kidding, its a guppy.

Hey Will,

How's Whitey doing? I have an aberrant northern ringneck that hatched out around the same time Whitey did, eats like a champ. I'll have him on f/t mice in no time.

That eastern king is doing good. Shed, ate, still nippy though lol.

Mike
Michael's Place

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Also, you sorta confused the kingsnake issue. Pyros or other montane kings are not considered snake eaters. You sorta confused attributes of the getulus group with montane kings.

And boy howdy, Regal ringnecks are big time snake consumers. In fact, a friend of mine was looking for his first Querretto(sp) kings. He looked all day, then dejected he returned to his car. Then while sitting in his car, he spotted a snake, it was a large ringneck, he picked it up and it puked out his first Qking.

ALso, ringnecks and pyros only marginally overlap in habitat. In this case, it sucked for the pyro. You all understand, this is life and that is that.

Also, ask Gerold about the day I took him pyro hunting. Thanks for posting the pics, very nice. FR