Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just purchased a Paternless baby leopard gecko today at the IRBA show in San Diego California. I got him from Geckos Etc form Steve. They were great and their stock was fabulous!!! Thanks guys!!!

Anyway The little guy they said has smaller eyes and one eyelid is mis-shappen. They said it was due to the female having a vitamin defencicy. They said it was not genitic but due to the mom haveing this vitamin problem that was the cause. He is chowing down crickets to my suprise he ate two right when we got home from a bumpy car ride home!

Has anyone else experienced this or does anyone have any other info on this perticular problem. He looks completly healthy and is all normal excet his eyes. He can open and close them both completly. He seems normal to me except one of his eyelids is mis-shapen like it was slit in 3 different places.

I woul highly recomend Geckos etc., he was completly honestwith me, answered all my questions and like I said his stock and prices were exceptional!!

Thanks for the help, appriciate it greatly.
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i think i saw that gecko, was it $15? its gorgeous. don't worry about it, it sounds like its doing good, and if it's not genetic, it will still make a great breeder.
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your head will collapse, but there's nothing in it, and you'll ask yourself, "where is my mind"

if you have AIM, IM me at iluvblackfrancis

Yes I got him for $15.00!! So I hope it is not genitic!! Yes he is verry healthy all-round, they just said make sure I can monitor his eating and he already proved that right away.
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I saw that little guy too. I think he is going to be fine. Did you see the super hypo tangerine Steve has for $15 because one of the eye is smaller than the other and the other 3 baldies for $25 because of a small kink in their tails? Steve at Geckos, Etc. is awesome, super nice guy and he will answer any and all questions you have.

from him. The October Show is a lot bigger then the one today, but todays crowd was definitly bigger then past shows. I think this year they will be just as they were a few years ago.

I came home with a proven female blizzard from Snake Broker for $60! Geckosect had some awsome geckos this year as well. I was tempted to buy a female Tremper Giant Albino, or maybe some hets, but I passed.

Your gecko will be fine. As long as he eats theres nothing to worry about. I have a baby that has the slightest eyelid defect on one eye from a shedding problem, that I think is like yours, it looks like the eyelid got slit. The geckos fine and I'm sure you have nothing to worry about.
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Bradley Baquial

Most birth defects in leopard geckos are the result of temperature fluctuations during incubation. Regardless of the cause it's unethical to breed an animal with defects. Just because the offspring appear normal doesn't mean that the defect won't pop up again (recessive trait) in future generations. You also have no way of knowing if there are any internal deformities. To tell you that a deformity is not genetic is unethical, there is no way for them to know that for a fact.

Doesn't it worry you that a breeder would admit that their breeding stock has nutritional deficiencies?

I have never seen this breeder's stock nor spoken with him, but I do feel he made a mistake in saying what he did because I personally will never purchase anything from a breeder with malnourished animals or that encourages breeding deformed animals in order to make a sale, and that is exactly what you have told me he did.
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Steven Beckerman
E2MacPets

I agree with this, most of the deformities I've seen in hatchling leos are due to fluctuating incubation temperatures.

It seems a lot of people incubate around 79-80 for the first 4 or 5 days to temp sex for female, then ramp it up to 90 to make them hatch faster - which doesn't always produce the most desirable results, as you've found out.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

No it does not wory me that I purchased a gecko from him, he is a verry respectable breeder and his stock is always great. Almost every breeder will have little geckos that just do not come out perfect in which they will sell at a lower cost. There is nothing wrong with that. If you saw tha baby he is not skinny no missing parts, just his eye looks like it was slit in the lid otherwise he looks perfectly normal!

I was simply asking if anyone else had ever had this eye thing hapen to any of their geckos and alot of people saw this little one and agree by seeing him in person that it is nothing to worry about.

If In fact I do find out that is is genitic hay I just got a great paternless gecko that will make a heck of a great pet!!

So are you to say that if one of the people you purchase any of your leopard geckos from(even if you have known them for years) put up a gecko for sale and listed all that was wrong with it you would never consider purchasing from them again and would look down on them? That does not make any sense to me.
Like I said Steve at Geckos Etc. is a great breeder and alot of other think so as well.

Thanks for your opinion though, I appriciate all that reply.
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You should not be breeding an animal that isn't in top shape.
Do you disagree with that?

You should not breed an animal with deformities.
Do you disagree with that?

What did this breeder tell you?
1) The mother was vitamin deficient.
2) The deformity is not genetic.

Correct?

As for the practice of selling B grade animals as PETS I see nothing wrong with it, it is a common practice.

But to admit to malnourished breeding stock and to sell deformed animals without discouraging breeding (and in this case it seems like breeding was being encouraged) is not a good practice in my mind.
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Steven Beckerman
E2MacPets

Well no one said he was selling it as a future breeder! All that is wrong is his eyelid is slit.
If a baby came out with a foot twisted are you saying it should never be breed? No there is nothing wrong with that gecko. If the gecko came out being totally deformed or something then yes I would not breed it!

People say it was an incubation temp problem, he from others say the mom had a vitamin problem. Not all the eggs hatched by that mom had this problem, only 2 out of all her eggs.

If all this guys stock was this way no I would not have made the purchase.

It is posible and likly to say that he himself did not know what happened and others told him it was a vitamin problem in the female, Who knows we may never know. If in fact it does breed and the babies do come out looking like him at birth, then we will know for a fact the true findings of it being genitic.
Just my opinion though! You take your chances and you see what you get, not all reptiles are perfect but that does not mean they are not breedable in most cases.
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When I asked Steve why the 4 super hypo tangerines were going for so cheap he told me the reasons why-the kink tails and the small eye. He told me he didn't know whether it's genetic or not therefore he didn't want to breed them himself. He wants to sell them cheap so someone out there can get a leo as a great pet. I don't think that's irresponsible of him to do that as long as he tells his customers.

That's fine and I do not find fault in what you just stated, but that's not what reptilehouse is saying.

reptilehouse stated that he was informed the deformities were from vitamin deficiencies in the mother and that it was not genetic. reptilehouse also has gone on to say that he will be breeding it because it's only a minor deformity. I find all aspects of this to be reprehensible.

If in fact the breeding stock was malnourished, obviously that's horrible. Of course it's always simply possible that some eggs were not provided with the proper nutrients needed to develop properly for other reasons then that.

To say that any deformity is minor and would not take away from the potential for breeding is absolutely immoral. There is no way of knowing that a visable deformity is not indicative of internal deformities as well. It is also impossible to determine from one generation of breeding that a deformity is not genetic.

Again, from what you say I do not find fault in Steve's actions. It is reptilehouse's statements that I find fault with and am trying to address.

>>When I asked Steve why the 4 super hypo tangerines were going for so cheap he told me the reasons why-the kink tails and the small eye. He told me he didn't know whether it's genetic or not therefore he didn't want to breed them himself. He wants to sell them cheap so someone out there can get a leo as a great pet. I don't think that's irresponsible of him to do that as long as he tells his customers.
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Steven Beckerman
E2MacPets

and that should be enough to say that theres nothing to worry about. Especially when the reason for the deformity is one that in no way can be genitic. There is no reason not to believe what he said, he is not an unknown breeder, and has a reputable reputation.

With such a slight deformity, I see no problem with breeding this animal. I can name a breeder that has bred at least a single male with a slight eyelid deformity caused by the same reason and a person we all respect and know, Garrick at CrestedGecko.com. The male albino's mom had a calcium deficincy and he ended up with a slight eyelid deformity and Garrick sold the gecko with a group of het females a few months ago and stated that the deformity was not genitic at all. I beleive it was someone on the forum that bought them.

Again there is nothing wrong with breeding animals with the slightest deformities caused by deficienties or temp fluntuations. If the breeder is reputble, it was caused by a non-genitic reason, the animal is healthy, and the deformity is the slightest thing then whats the problem. We see that large and expeirienced breeders have had expeirience with these and handled them just as regular stock, have bred them, sold them and proven that there is nothing wrong with them, so what do we have to worry about.
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Bradley Baquial

Most problems like that ARE NOT GENETIC, and if he is a reputable breeders he wouldn't risk himself in saying anything that wouldn't be true. Just keep an eye on your gecko.

and that should be enough to say that theres nothing to worry about. Especially when the reason for the deformity is one that in no way can be genitic. There is no reason not to believe what he said, he is not an unknown breeder, and has a reputable reputation.

With such a slight deformity, I see no problem with breeding this animal. I can name a breeder that has bred at least a single male with a slight eyelid deformity caused by the same reason and a person we all respect and know, Garrick at CrestedGecko.com. The male albino's mom had a calcium deficincy and he ended up with a slight eyelid deformity and Garrick sold the gecko with a group of het females a few months ago and stated that the deformity was not genitic at all. I beleive it was someone on the forum that bought them.

Again I see nothing wrong with breeding animals with the slightest deformities caused by deficienties or temp fluntuations. If the breeder is reputble, it was caused by a non-genitic reason, the animal is healthy, and the deformity is the slightest thing then whats the problem. We see that large and expeirienced breeders have had expeirience with these and handled them just as regular stock, have bred them, sold them and proven that there is nothing wrong with them, so what do we have to worry about.
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Bradley Baquial

Appeals to authority are an invalid form of argument, but if we were to continue using it then we should cite Ron Tremper who actively supports the practice of culling deformed animals.

As for the breeding group sold recently with a deformity:
Have you seen every offspring produced from that group? How about every one of their offspring? How about the number of eggs that didn't hatch?

I assume the answer is no? Well then what is your basis for believing that it was not genetic? The breeder said so. What was the breeder trying to do when he said so? Sell the animals.

So you are using anecdotal evidence; appeals to authority, specifically argumentum ad verecundiam; and so on.

Of course you could say this entire dialogue has been an argumentum ad logicam, since I have done more to prove the errors of your own arguments than I have done to prove the conclusion false.

However when you make a statement such as "Especially when the reason for the deformity is one that in no way can be genitic." to rebuff my statement that is is unethical to breed unhealthy animals or the resulting unhealthy offspring, I would hope you have SCIENTIFIC PROOF to back up your claim that not only is it not genetic but also minor in significance.

I would like to see SCIENTIFIC PROOF that a deformity caused by outside factors can not possibly be genetic. I will simply ask that you do research on alcohol consumption during pregnancy and the possibility of cerebral palsy being passed on to future generations, before you answer this.
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Steven Beckerman
E2MacPets

I AM IN NO WAY AND DO NOT BREED BAD OR DEFORMED REPTILES. I GUESS I DID NOT MAKE IT CLEAR THAT STEVE SAID IT WAS NOT GENITIC. HE SAID WHEN THESE TWO CAME OUT HE HAD TO CALL SOMEONEELSE TO FIND OUT WHY THIS HAPPENED, THEY STATED THAT IT WAS DUE TO THE MOTHER HAVING A VITAMIN PROBLEM, BUT IF IT WAS GENITIC WOULDN'T ALL THE BABIES HATCHED FROM HER BE THAT WAY? i DO NOT KNOW ALL THE SCIENTIFIC PROFF AND WHY ALOT OF THINGS HAPPEN, I AM SIMPLY JUST STARTING TO BREED THESE GREAT LITTLE GECKOS AND THERE IS ALOT OF INFORMATION OUT THERE, MAYBE I JUST GOT CONFUSED.

STEVE WAS NOT SURE THAT WAS THE CAUSE AND THEREFOR I WAS SIMPLE ASKING IF ANYONE ELSE EVER HAD THIS PROBLEM AND WAS IT DO TO A VITAMIN PROBLEM OR SOMETHING ELSE.

IS THE ONLY WAY TO FIND OUT IF THIS PROBLEM IS GOING TO CONTINUE IS TO BREED IT? I WON'T KNOW TILL I DO SO THAT IS WHY I STATED I WAS GOING TO LET IT BREED. I WILL NOT KNOW FOR SURE TILL THEN, NOEONE WILL EVEN THE PEOPLE THAT PURCHASED THE OTHER ONE OR EVEN THE ONES PURCHASED WITH OTHER SLIGHT PROBLEMS AS WELL.

IF GOING AGAINST WHAT YOU SAID AND PROVING IT TO BE GENITIC WELL THEN THAT WILL HELP OTHERS IN KNOWING NOT TO BREED THEM. AND IF SO WELL THEN HAY I WILL HAVE LITTLE ONES THAT WILL REQUIRE MORE TIME AND CARE, AND I HAVE ABOSLUTLY NO PROBLEM WITH THAT, THEY WILL MAKE VERY WONDERFUL PETS TO ME.

THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP AND OPINION IT IS APPRICIATED BY ALL, THATS WHY I'M GLAD THE FORUM IS HERE!!!
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First off, dont type in all caps, it is very annoying. I hope when you breed this deformed leo(which I agree with Steven, a.k.a Waxwormfan, that it shouldnt be bred) are you going to tell all the people who buy its offspring that its parent had a deformity?? Another thing, just because the guy told you it wasnt genetic you are suddenly going to believe him?? You said yourself that he told you wasnt sure what caused it so how can he be sure that it isn't genetic?? You are just being gullable. You go ahead and breed it, but I hope that everyone buying your leos know that its mother had a deformity. That would certainly throw a red flag up to me, to not buy the animal.
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Josh
My Email

The fact that it didn't show up in all the babies does not mean that it's not genetic.

If I had two double het tremper albino leos, and only one baby out of a dozen hatched out as homozygous for tremper albino, is this also not genetic?

A lot of ailments in animals are also just recessive traits (such as the two types of diabetes in Campbell's Russian Dwarf Hamsters).

Now I'm not saying that this necessarily is the cause, just that it can't be ruled out.

PERSONALLY, I think the deformity is probably due to fluctuating incubation temperatures rather than a deficiency in the mother.

Almost every leo I've seen that has eye problems has been due to the incubation temps.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

ermm.. regular het, not double het, lol.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

Thank you, I agree I myself do not think it was a vitamin problem with the mother. I have been making calls and doing research all day.

I did not mean to upset anyone. If and when I do breed this little one of course I will be informing everyone that this parent was born with this. I have nothing to hide!! I am completly honest with all my reptiles as with you hope everyone else is as well.

Out of everyone who responded back only one person has a problem with me breeding it. I'm sorry they are so upset with me.
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Yes, there deformites do seem to happen also from hyper or hypo vitaminosis. There is evidence (though not scientific) that vitamin a might have something to do with some of these kinds of deformities. I have switched from using herptivite which contians beta carotine, to using another supp. that has preformed A in it. I have had no such deformities this year. I know other breeders that have also added a supp. containing preformed A rather than beta carotine and have had similar results. I think this is what the guy you got your gecko from might be talking about.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

That definately goes against the more prevalent school of thought as of late regarding the vit A vs. beta carotine debates.

Thanks for the insight, Bill!

Regardless, that doesn't preclude this defect from being an inheritable trait, which is where my concern lies in this case. Certainly the breeder and new owner feel that quality of life is not an issue in this instance, so I'll overlook that concern.

>>Yes, there deformites do seem to happen also from hyper or hypo vitaminosis. There is evidence (though not scientific) that vitamin a might have something to do with some of these kinds of deformities. I have switched from using herptivite which contians beta carotine, to using another supp. that has preformed A in it. I have had no such deformities this year. I know other breeders that have also added a supp. containing preformed A rather than beta carotine and have had similar results. I think this is what the guy you got your gecko from might be talking about.
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>>Bill DiFabio
>>Azteclizard.com
>>Email Me
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Steven Beckerman
E2MacPets

I think that they may have used Tremper's Incubation method, as I did. Look how my gecko turned out.

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1.1 Eublepharis macularius
1.0 Uromastyx geryi
0.0.1 Phrynosoma platyrhinos
0.0.1 Kinosternon bauri

Answering your questions and being totally honest with you are two TOTALLY separate issues.

Say you ask me what color the sky is. I tell you it is green. Not only that I tell you it is green because there are so many more green trees. I have given you an answer and an explaination of why my answer is correct.

I have been totally honest with you, RIGHT?

I will let you deduce the premise here.

Steven
Royal Gold Reptiles

Patternless Leos are my favorite morphs, and I breed them very carefully. In my professional experience I am of the opinion that they can be a challenge to produce because of inherent problems most likely caused by past inbreeding. But before I get going here I'd like to make a point in the difference between inherent vs. congenital defects. Inherent defects are caused by genetic problems that are inherited from the parents of an offspring, and congenital defects occur during the development of the offspring either in the uterus or egg.

An example of an inherent (genetic) defect in Patternless Leos would be the commonly occurring "kinked-tail" that we all see way too often. This seems to be a genetic trait because parents with kinked tails will produce offspring with kinked tails. An example of a congenital defect could be a deformed eyelid due to some contributing factor during the embryo's development. It could be caused by some kind of nutritional deficiency in the mother while the egg is forming in her uterus, or temperature fluctuation during incubation, or the introduction of some form of bacteria or fungus during it's development. Since eyelid defects seem to occur randomly in all Leopard Gecko morphs, and parents that have them do not necessarily produce offspring with eyelid defects, it might be assumed that it is a congenital defect.

I cannot speak for all Leopard Gecko breeders out there, but I have a very strong hunch that very few of us (even RT!) have the time or inclination to do advanced genetic research of eyelid deformities, and exactly how or when they occur. I cannot speak for other breeders on the issue of ethics, either. But I do feel that if there is the slightest doubt that ANY defect could be genetic, the Leopard Gecko should NOT be allowed to breed and risk producing offspring that have the potential of passing those genes on to future generations. If breeders would stop allowing Patternless Leopard Geckos with kinked tails to produce offspring, the defect would eventually go away!

It sounds to me like this is not an issue for the thread-starter, and he is happy with the little Patternless Leo he has being just a nice little pet. It also seems that he is perfectly satisfied with the explanation the breeder gave him of the eyelid defect. I must say though, that I would not have told him the problem was due to a vitamin deficiency unless I knew positively that was the case, and I doubt anyone would know that for sure.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com