Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Bruce and I took Four Dots, our female ornate, up to the falls in the Ortega Mountains (So. Calif.) to enjoy a natural setting of sun and water. She was hatched on Nov. 2, 2000 and is the only remaining ornate we have left after Nessie and the others were wiped out by an airborne virus in 2003. Here's a pic of she and me. - NessiesMom

Here you can see why she was named Four Dots. Where her tail begins there are four yellow "dots" running across her back. - NessiesMom

Yes, ornates can swim - quite fast in fact - just like a snake.
- NessiesMom

You think thats swimming? And I think thats sorta floating in a general direction. (for water type monitors)

Like I have tried to explain, I am at the misfortune of having seen wild monitors swim and there is no comparison to what your posting. Not when running for us, just when they are being themselves.

I would think a normal nile would swim away very fast, walk around the bottom investigating monitor interests for a long period of time.

And Please do not give me the "but my monitors are tame and like me" Monitors tame or not, have a mind of their own, and interests of their own and when they see an oppertunity to have fun and fullfill their interest, they will. They are also not bound to humans or even other monitors that they have to stay within a few feet. They can see for miles(like birds) and consider themselves next to eachother, even when a couple hundred meters apart. They also have a highly developed ability to smell and locate. Niles can travel a couple of hundred meters in a couple minutes, on land and in the water.

You must understand, that if you have a goulds that cannot or does not run, something is amiss. If you have an alligator that only dog paddles around in the water, something is amiss. If you have a human that cannot run and can barely walk, something is amiss.

So I ask, whats amiss? if a human cannot run, they may be fat and out of shape, old, decrepit, or sick. So why can't your monitor swim normally? Well it could be for the above reasons or it may only be its not at its operating temperatures. Please consider, its very stressful for monitors to operate at temps below whats needed.

For instance, if you come upon a goulds or Flavi(racehorse monitor) and its not up to its operating temps, it will not run, but instead choose to go criptic(lay low, freeze, go unnoticed) The reason is does not run is, it cannot run. Its not able to run without the proper temps. You should understand, its risking its life on this decision. So it could be "only" that. Or it could be sick, either mentally or physically. It surely is something.

So forgive me if I see monitors that cannot or do not, do what they are suppose to do and are designed to do. Forgive me for asking why. Forgive me for making you think in a way that may be uncomfortable for you. Consider, when you allow them to run and swim, in a somewhat normal way, it may also allow a normal immune system to develop. Also consider, in all the years I have been on this forum, ALL the walkers(tame monitors that did not run) have died. Again, that is all the ones that were really tame. OK, not all, yet, just most. I do not know what that means, to me its only something to question.

I understand many of us "want" our captives to be happy and perfect, but to look the other way and rationalize is not the way that happens. You see, there are some basic truths in life, and monitors running and swimming is one of them. Running monitors run(really well), and swimming monitors swim(really well) so forgive me for asking why yours don't? Remember, its something I do not understand. Cheers FR

P.S. its also not about tame or monitors liking you or I, its simply about monitors being monitors, which I hope is the goal of people who keep them. And no, I am not saying, our captives should swim or run as well as wild monitors, but they should be in the ballpark.

xxxYou think thats swimming? And I think thats sorta floating in a general direction. (for water type monitors)

***********How can you say that from a single still photo? Which I’m sure was chosen for beauty (and it is) I think you are trying to stir the pot…lol

xxxLike I have tried to explain, I am at the misfortune of having seen wild monitors swim and there is no comparison to what your posting. Not when running for us, just when they are being themselves.

************Misfortune? Yeah right. Why are the monitors you see running? Also, what makes you assume Four Dots doesn’t run or swim very fast for that matter?

xxxI would think a normal nile would swim away very fast, walk around the bottom investigating monitor interests for a long period of time.

*************I bet that does happen.

xxxAnd Please do not give me the "but my monitors are tame and like me" Monitors tame or not, have a mind of their own, and interests of their own and when they see an oppertunity to have fun and fullfill their interest, they will.

**************Of course they will. And you’re absolutely right. But considering all your monitors in reference are mentally primitive or wild you just can’t understand they can and do adapt. Relaxed and ill look very similar in any species of creature, and I would agree that relaxed isn’t a monitors norm. But once a big chunk of the fear they carry around is gone, some actually relax more often. I think you do monitor’s an injustice by assuming they cannot learn, adapt, and rely on humans. You have not invested the time it takes to build that kind of trusting relationship it takes to accomplish this. I have always been more interested in monitor’s capacity for thought than for its wild habits, but I have learned that living environment and treatment play a huge part in how they develop as an individual.

xxxThey are also not bound to humans or even other monitors that they have to stay within a few feet. They can see for miles(like birds) and consider themselves next to eachother, even when a couple hundred meters apart. They also have a highly developed ability to smell and locate.

***************I’m sure that’s true in a world of familiar natural smells, but in the hodgepodge of domestic smells It must be more difficult for them. I would like to agree with you that monitors never become attached to humans, but I think some must in their own way. I don’t understand it as well as I would like to. If well-adjusted monitors are so sick and unhappy why do they approach their humans out in the open and not just run away? I wish I could ask them, then I’d let you know.

xxx Niles can travel a couple of hundred meters in a couple minutes, on land and in the water.
You must understand, that if you have a goulds that cannot or does not run, something is amiss. If you have an alligator that only dog paddles around in the water, something is amiss. If you have a human that cannot run and can barely walk, something is amiss.
So I ask, whats amiss? if a human cannot run, they may be fat and out of shape, old, decrepit, or sick. So why can't your monitor swim normally? Well it could be for the above reasons or it may only be its not at its operating temperatures. Please consider, its very stressful for monitors to operate at temps below whats needed.
For instance, if you come upon a goulds or Flavi(racehorse monitor) and its not up to its operating temps, it will not run, but instead choose to go criptic(lay low, freeze, go unnoticed) The reason is does not run is, it cannot run. Its not able to run without the proper temps. You should understand, its risking its life on this decision. So it could be "only" that. Or it could be sick, either mentally or physically. It surely is something.
So forgive me if I see monitors that cannot or do not, do what they are suppose to do and are designed to do. Forgive me for asking why. Forgive me for making you think in a way that may be uncomfortable for you. Consider, when you allow them to run and swim, in a somewhat normal way, it may also allow a normal immune system to develop. Also consider, in all the years I have been on this forum, ALL the walkers(tame monitors that did not run) have died. Again, that is all the ones that were really tame. OK, not all, yet, just most. I do not know what that means, to me its only something to question.

***************Not sure why you are stuck on “not being able to or wanting to” when you have no personal knowledge of Four Dots capabilities. So are you saying it’s impossible for a monitor to have the mental capacity to adapt it’s life to include humans and still be successful? A person can never be accepted by a monitor? Unusual yes but impossible?

xxxI understand many of us "want" our captives to be happy and perfect, but to look the other way and rationalize is not the way that happens. You see, there are some basic truths in life, and monitors running and swimming is one of them. Running monitors run(really well), and swimming monitors swim(really well) so forgive me for asking why yours don't? Remember, its something I do not understand. Cheers FR
P.S. its also not about tame or monitors liking you or I, its simply about monitors being monitors, which I hope is the goal of people who keep them. And no, I am not saying, our captives should swim or run as well as wild monitors, but they should be in the ballpark.

************ I think after my monitors pass I may switch to birds. You make me worry about Scooter a lot. That sucks. –H-

No Holly I am not trying to stir the pot. Just read the post and try not to think its a problem about you. Just try to think of it as about monitors and what they are or suppose to be.

Again, its not about tame, remember me, I am the one that has a wild lizard that will come and sit in my lap. I think monitors are naturally tame, that is, they quickly get over their fear of you. But that does not make them obedient. They are suppose to have a mind of their own and do monitor things.FR

Few years ago I stopped sheltering reptiles for peoples on vacation, one of the reasons was relevant to this post. In my care these animals quickly became defensive, usually within a few days, this resulted in many arguments from the keepers. Most didn’t or refused to understand that there very placid animal, is in fact a wild animals with little use for human companionship. One can assume many things, the animals didn’t know me? I was unrespectfull? I mistreated? I fed it live foods? Or anything they want, but the fact was only about heat and allowing them to stay warm. In nature water monitors be it salvator, indicus, nil’s or mertensis, these use water as a tool. To feed or escape and thermo regulate, they will not use this tool in any other ways. Theirs no real benefit for any monitor to enter water below body function temperatures, so they do it only when needed. This alone answer your post on how can we see a problem with your monitors.

I can assure you for having been there already, your indicus in my care would change dramatically, this would be very hard for you to accept. And you’d probably hate me in the prose’s.

Hello Holly,

I have known several keepers in the 25 years I have associated with many many keepers who have had similarly tame and healthy monitor lizards = a water monitor (V. salvator) that would take regular swims in San Francisco Bay, and upon a whistle blow, would return to his (then) 15 year old keeper; another keeper who allowed his 8 foot female V. salvator routinely walk through the city park go for a swim in the city pond, and feed on city ducks too! She was absolutely dog tame, and could be handled by anyone anywhere anytime - except when she was in estrus 2x/year when she was dangerous for a few weeks time; another was several savanna monitors (V. exanthematicus) that would hang out in the garden and watch airplanes, eat rose petals, and just hang out - and I did with them every chance I had on a day-to-day basis.

So NO, you are not the only one to have a totally docile monitor, nor is it unique - I would say it is uncommon though. There are island forms of many monitor lizards (i,e. Varanus melinus) that have never seen or encountered humans, and have 150% no fear of them due to theur total unfamiliarity of them and our ways - being an apex predator, they rarely fear much - and if they have never encounterd a human, are sometimes fearless of them/us....this could explain your lizards behavior - and that it is perfectly healthy -

Hope this helps, enjoy your monitor,
mbayless

Melinus is one of the shyest species, it’s always hidden when given the means to do so, and will rarely feed from its keeper, in fact its reluctant to feed in the presence of its keeper. Sure after some time they come to trust, but still it’s a very shy species.
Do not confuse shyness with tameness.
Many other species are known for there natural tameness, dumerili is one of them, funny if I try to force handling on one of mine, it will tail slap and or bite for sure! Now if I lower my temps a little by 10-15f I can handle them at will. Is this supposed to be tame? Or is it dependence? Notice we aren’t talking about submission witch is an other story often confused with tameness. In my opinion a tame monitor is one that performs normal varanids activities in my presence, normal activities excludes anything they are dependent of, feeding water heat.

That the temps in San Fran bay are a bit lower(at the highest)(in most cases friggin freezing) then what is suitable for water monitors. Also, the San Fran area is not noted for being able to support large reptiles. Something about not enough heat and not for long enough periods. So people taking monitors for a walk in such an area is simply not a good example. Now if you had someone in northern Oz or indo, or africa that live where the monitors actually occur, take their tame monitor out of walks and swims, unattached to their human keepers, I would say that is a special monitor. I think they would simply climb a tree or swim across the lake or river, or go down a hole or all of the above, just doing what monitors do. Again, not about tame. FR

None of mine would stay, not because I don’t want them to.

I like that post Jobi. I see alot of comments being made about how fast and easy albigs tame. This confuses me, my adult male will allow me to change his water, offer food and spot clean.
But.... If I get too close to his burrow, I will get greeted by a loud hiss and followed up with a smack upside my head if I don't back up.
Maybe if I remove two of his basking lights I can tame him.
Don't you just hate it when a monitor acts like a monitor?

Scott
-----
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Would charge at me when I entered the room, then attack the wall of the cage. If I opened the door they sat still and waited for my hand to come in, then flew at me like something out of a horror movie. Mostly males now that I think of it. In fact all but 1 Ive been bit by were males, along with a female bosc that bit me so many times. Personality has alot to do with it.

Here's a close up shot of Four Dots' face. Looks so much like Nessie...I miss him so much.
- NessiesMom

Hey lady!

You guys look great! Life seems to be agreeing with you! I was scared to ask how Bruce is, I'm so glad you are vacationing, he must be much better. Four Dots looks great to me, but what do I know

Is it your only monitor right now?
Thanks so much for sharing!
Holly-

Beautiful monitor and equally beautiful keeper, I really like ornate's and nil’s in general, I understand about the red flag FR’s trying to make you see, I recall him trying on many occasions (even before you lost Nessie) The message is clear! It’s about allowing your monitor to reach thermal functionality, temps that promotes growth, digestion, and allows the immune system to fight off disease (air born or other)
I have many tame monitors of many species, no dough as tame as Nessi or this little girl, however the difference lays in thermoregulation, most of the time they will not allow me to pick them up and will flee if given the chance, this is only because they can do it, there body functions permits them to take off. Lower there body temps and you have a very different monitor on your hands. Theirs an important physiological factor we as keepers often don’t consider the amount of days in a year that our monitors reach maximum body temperatures, often we take for granted sins we provide them with basking that they get all they need, however its not always the case. Lets say our monitor basked at 130f this morning for 20minuts, then retreats to his den after cruising his enclosure a bit, what is the dens temperature and what’s the dens ability to keep temperature, our monitors body temperature after basking will be a few degrees higher then basking temps, a healthy monitor can generate higher then ambient temps for some time if his borrow allows it, in a large hide box body generated heat will rapidly dissipate, on the other hand in a more tight fitting borrow (well insulated) heat will be preserved throughout the hotter part of the day and even night. That’s how wild monitors preserve energy that allows full body functions. Now in our cages most monitors do not have proper shelter offering thermoregulation possibilities, most often captive monitors are forced to go back and forth between basking and (the other part of the cage) for those who keep them outside in most parts of north America, things get even more complicated, if not provided with a good borrow, often we need to supply big blankets or other sub terrain heat. Remember there are many possible borrows that we might think is ok, but the end story is it needs to fill the requirements of the specie not what we think it should.

Hope this makes sense to you, my English doesn’t seem to be improving one bit.

Rgds

They are large heat mats, they should be use above shelter not as belly heat.