Reptile & Amphibian Forums

4 years ago I sold 1.2 baby prasinus to a well known woman in the pet industry, she followed her own experience and designed a very complex caging system, with an automatic shower system on timer and all the goodies one expect to find in PNG rain forest. The monitors grew slowly and eventually one died, then only then she called me. (I have to say every one calls when its to late) anyways the cage was very nice but useless in my opinion, but the major problem was the water system, it was connected to bucket with an automatic fill system like household toilet refill, this was hooked on the cold water outlet, therefore every time the system ran the entire enclosure became really cool. Once the system was shut off and a few nesting site supplied, the monitors grew well and produced. This lady hatched 3 prasinus last year, she called me because they hade stopped feeding, so I went to see the problem, guess what? They where installed exactly as the parents was before, with the same shower system. Someone advised her to keep them this way. I shook my head in disbelief and asked why, she tot that it’s ok in summer to be showered with cool water, and she was not going to use this system in winter.

I don’t see any logic in this behaviour, and believe me it happens way more then expected.
I see a similar pattern happening on this forum, monitors and there needs have not changed these 5 years iv been here, its really concerning that keepers have not changed there husbandry to fit the monitors needs, and its unfortunate that when we post to help, we have to be cautious not to offend, otherwise we are perceived as rude and arrogant. Its also frustrating when peoples who don’t have a clue about what they say interfere, often just to cause disruption.
These last 4-5 years iv sold about 30 monitors to peoples visiting these forums, and all except the above haven’t got a single egg, all hade properly sexed animals (no exceptions) with all available information, this shouldn’t be an issue.

The problem I keep seeing is everyone wants a bigger and better cage than everyone else. They have to make it fancy and pretty. I beileve in the "KISS" method. Or as Frank says, "why reinvent the wheel?"
I find out what my lizards need and start there. I make changes slowly and watch.
I give them what they need and they grow, dig, eat, lay eggs, yes even the female without a mate. I hope to be able to produce some good eggs in the future since my known critters now have mates.

Scott
-----
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

You know what your saying is important, because these no magic, it only takes common sense and consistence to properly care for animals. And you right I don’t say it often not to embarrass the peoples I know, but females lay eggs with or without a male, if she doesn’t your husbandry needs tuning. A friend of mine lost a male dumerili 18 months ago, I originally sold him 1.2, I have a replacement male for him (free!) all I asked is for him to get the females to drop eggs before I send him the male, its been a year now. Meanwhile I enjoy his male. I hope if he reads this he will confirm my story.
And not be offended about his lousy husbandry

whats lousy husbanry? for the male to die.

I really don’t know? Haven’t seen him, I remember one of the females to be very dominant. Usually monitors don’t die over night, it’s a long process, however we never know with WC? I too lost a few monitors without knowing exactly what happened.

Not all female monitors lay eggs without males, its not a guideline for proper husbandry. I have lots of females, and they didnt lay eggs until i introduced a male and breeding occurred. not only did it occur it was sucessful with good eggs.

So does that mean my husbandry is improper? im allowing them what they need minimally apparently for them to cycle and breed. but they dont do it without a male? so am i still doing something wrong, or am i doing something right?

It’s a problem only if your intention is to reproduce them, in my friends case that’s exactly his intention.
All monitors iv sold to private keepers, they obtained in this regard (breeding) the fact that none even got eggs, clearly demonstrate a lack of commitment. It’s not fun to point this out, but it’s a fact. The monitors are not at fault here.

hi all.
one 12 year old female salvator i have recently laid her 5th infertile clutch since august 04. i didnt even feed her that much and she laid more infertiles this year than any in past. all attempts at introducing her to my male have been violent on her part, even when she cycled. thinking of changing my male for more assertive one.

another smaller 2.5 year old female i have has not laid 1 egg despite seeing her cycle. she was housed with my male. the first female which many on here know as "cody", is very tolerant of people. the smaller female i call "tiger" is shy and not secure in my presence. all my salvators are housed similarly in all aspects of heat, temps, substrate. your comments welcome.

regards,

-john
cybersalvator.com

This is just my beliefs others may have a different approach. So only use what works if it doesn't work then keep looking for what does. I could be wrong a bit looney perhaps? the verdict is still out on that one haha

The problems your seeing are seen most often when animals are raised seperatly to adulthood then introduced later on. They simply haven't had the chances to learn anything. Any squabbles or other ways of communication are over acted in these type of adults. They never had to learn how to get along with others. In some cases they look to us as the others sadly it is not the life they should of learned or grew up in. I have yet to have these problems with any I have raised together.

Many see this as only a problem in social animals. If you really think there is such a thing as a solitary animal then this may be ok. But even so called solitary animals need to learn how to go about the day by day activities. Not necassarily from parents. This could be from bumping into its siblings, other animals, or even adults of its own kind. Growing up alone in a cage cannot teach you awhole lot if you ask me.

I also think they choose who they like or wish to be with rather then just being with them because they are their. So it could be your female doesn't like that male or the other way around. Knowing how they think would be a big help in this but sadly not much is known. I find sometimes swapping individuals around works.

jody,

i know what you are saying and believe it too. cody was alone for years and grew very much accustomed to me... even lifting her tail if i scratched it lol. i could do a few things about this, 1) try again with a different male. 2) work the young pair and leave cody alone. the young pair get along but i see the female gets suppressed when housed with him. she is 2 feet smaller than he. again, a side by side enclosure with partition might help and only introduce during the cycle. thanks all for the comments, advice. it hasnt gone unnoticed. -john

you already know many of the ways to do it. I don't think it is a lost cause or cody is destined to be alone. I just think you got your work cut out for you on finding the correct method or way to apply it.

For my big salvators it was simply putting them outdoors in my fenced back yard. They did much of the same as within the cage but with less hostility. The chasing went on for awhile but eventually things calmed down. In a couple days I will try to introduce them in the cage and see if it works.

The thing is when young they do this same behavior. But being younger it is less deadly. Once older it is alot more dangerous for each of the monitors involved. Cooling them as Steeve mentioned helps but is only an aid at fixing the problem.

I think you'll need to find the right combination of things in order for it to work. lower temps, bigger area, new male, etc. just keep trying things something is bound to work.

Hello John nice to see you

If you take a global view of the posts Iv been involved last 48h
You will notice its all about temperature, iv said it many time in the past and said it again last night. Cooled monitors are placid, even abnormally placid. You can turn this to your advantage in regards to Cody, even adult WC monitors can be matched this way, or WC to long term, long term to CB or any other combination. Just do it!!
But you already know all about this john, why it works for me and not for you is a mystery.

As for your other female maybe she’s stressed and needs time alone?
rgds

Are you still in China?

hi steeve, thanks for reply. im back from china. restaurants are full of herps to eat, saw bins of red ear sliders and cobras. ive only introduced cody to male when she's been heated up. she attacked the male over the weekend and he fled the scene. i can surely drop her temps to mid 60s by unplugging all bulbs and pig blanket. maybe be all the difference i need?

as for the other female im consistently interacting with her to get her more accustomed to me. i put her in a high traffic area, and she now takes food from tongs. she will allow me to go in cage, but in some angles she inflates and whips. thanks and best regards, -john

Many species hibernate-aestivate communally, even mixed specie and genera are documented. They share this resource as a tool. Why cant we as keepers use it also?
Use common sense and don’t bring your temps up to fast, take your time and do it slowly bit by bit, see how they react to each other when allowed brief basking periods, if they start acting up! Shut down till next try, eventually they will better tolerate each other.
Then come the part for witch most keepers have problems, (resource sharing) this seems easy enough for monitors raised in groups or pairs, but strangers!! Do not starve them ever! I mean in every way possible, water, shelter basking are monitors belongings, they are possessions worth fighting for. Especially with a stranger.
One last word, if Cody is cycling forget about cooling her.

Ps. Have you tried any snake meat? Or other weird foods?

This is about matching monitors not about breeding. Once they tolerate each other then your chances are looking good.

hi steeve, i will take that into concideration. when i first introduced them, they were in a room sized enclosure, with 2 basking areas, 2 mixing tub conatiners, a nest box, levels for climbing out of ones way, daily feedings. one day she would actively search for him and attack him. other days they would be lying next to each other on a pig blanket like nothing was wrong. then again the fights continued where eventually they had big lacerations on their limbs and tails. cody lost a back finger, and the male lost about 4 inches of tail length. both healed so fast and clean, you cannot tell they were torn up at all. i remember reading a post from frank a year ago about letting them work it out, by my own damn thinking led me to separate them again. i lost that room enclosure space to my sisters expanding family. about food, its summer now. the east coast of america is home to a non indigineus species of japanese shore crab that are so plentiful, i could easily feed my 30 lb salvators for the season. i contacted some top people who are working to eradicate the crab and i found out they are safe to feed- no mercury levels. usual diet for my waters is rats mice and chicken. they go for the chicken faster than anything else. i mean they will go out of their way to take it from my tongs and even leave the enclosure to eat. cody, although tolerant of gentle handling (rarely do so these days), has a dangerous feeding response and i am extermely careful when feeding and cage cleaning. regards, -john

Introducing unknown adult animals is nothing new, zoo’s and farmers do it all the time. It doesn’t matter if they are Siberian Tigers or domestic pig’s (this case varanids) they are likely to fight. Sometime even kill each other, I have witnessed successful introductions of the above species performed by knowledgeable peoples using different approach and technique, with same results. The primary goal was to reduce stress prior introduction.
Gees I really feel like having written this before (sure I did) anyways!
I did use cooling to introduce a few monitors and pythons with good results, in one case a female captive raised croc who killed the first introduced male and almost killed the second one also, I lowered the temps in her 6by6by6feet pen to a cool 67f and introduced the male she almost killed, they shared a hide box a full week without any hissing and puffing, then I slowly got my temps up. It was scary when she first started to walk the enclosure, often smelling and scratching at the male then returning to investigate surroundings. That was my first try, sins then I did it with tri colour, nil’s, retics, rock pythons, with the same results. When dealing with younger monitors, I do as RSG and frank suggested, let them sort it out.
Frank says some monitors just don’t get along together, this may or may not be correct.
In my opinion (just an opinion) timing really maters, captive or nature doesn’t matter to some extent. A monitor prowling for food encountering an other monitor is very likely to engage in territory dispute and run the intro away, not possible in captive (=danger).
Same animals meeting in other circumstance may behave with none aggressiveness, sharing shelters or feeding on carcass. In any case I could write pages of anecdotes with my captive but it will not change a thing for you, I really think this can help, otherwise id shut up!
Let me know how it works out with Cody if you try.

Talked to my vet, doesn’t matter if you cool Cody now, it happens all the time in nature. Cycling reptile are often disrupted by a cold front in every corner of the world, they simply resume cycling when condition permits.

your females probly did cycle without the males you just may not have noticed it. They do not need to drop eggs to cycle.

i think so too. the small female cycled, but didnt lay. -john

I was clueless when my little girl cycled. All I knew was she got fat real quick and wouldn't eat anything. Then a few days later, she wasn't so fat anymore and was eating anything offered.
The next time she blew up and refused food, I ended up finding eggs in the water, eggs on the dirt, eggs on the basking site.
I think I found 17 of them and boy was she hungry.
Maybe one of these days I will figure these critters out.
My little girl now has what I believe is a nice fella.
My big male albig now has a girl to meet just as soon as I fatten her up a bit.

Scott
-----
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

A couple of things, first how many successful clutches have you hatched?

I ask that not as an insult but as an example of lack of experience. Having a clutch or two, does not give enough data to really make any kind of judgement.

Its most likely better if Jobi would have used the term, "cycled" as normal healthy females should indeed cycle. To cycle is to develop enlarged ovum.

I agree that most normal females will develop enlarged ovum(cycle) and if not presented with a male, absorb the enlarged ovum, instead of dropping them.

I am not sure what causes a unmated female to drop enlarged ovum(infertiles) But they often do. I do not think there is that waste of energy in nature.

There is a difference between eggs and ovum. I believe its about being shelled. Eggs have a calicum shell, enlarged ovum are not calicfied. So to say infertile eggs is most likely not accurate.

The point is, healthy females normally develop enlarged ovum, whether they drop them or not. Healthy females cycle without the presence of a male.

It does boil down to the exact definition of healthy. I believe healthy should mean, able to carry out lifes functions. Reproducing is amoung lifes functions. It can be said that reproducing is lifes main function. Particularly with animals that feed other life forms(support the ecosystem).

On the other end, you could say its healthy if it lives until tomorrow. Thanks FR

hi frank,
my female lays infertile shelled eggs. im trying to figure out a way to introduce a cycling female to my male without her attacking / chasing him off. yes she was raised alone for years, so she lacks interaction with her kind. you once told me if she cycles everything will change. nothings changed and she is as feisty to him as ever. now, im concidering a few things: change my male. also introducing her when shes cooled down. my other option would be to leave the old broad alone, and work with another young female with this male. they might be better candidates in long run.

regards

-john

A couple of things, first how many successful clutches have you hatched?

I ask that not as an insult but as an example of lack of experience. Having a clutch or two, does not give enough data to really make any kind of judgement.

Its most likely better if Jobi would have used the term, "cycled" as normal healthy females should indeed cycle. To cycle is to develop enlarged ovum.

I agree that most normal females will develop enlarged ovum(cycle) and if not presented with a male, absorb the enlarged ovum, instead of dropping them.

I am not sure what causes a unmated female to drop enlarged ovum(infertiles) But they often do. I do not think there is that waste of energy in nature.

There is a difference between eggs and ovum. I believe its about being shelled. Eggs have a calicum shell, enlarged ovum are not calicfied. So to say infertile eggs is most likely not accurate.

The point is, healthy females normally develop enlarged ovum, whether they drop them or not. Healthy females cycle without the presence of a male.

It does boil down to the exact definition of healthy. I believe healthy should mean, able to carry out lifes functions. Reproducing is amoung lifes functions. It can be said that reproducing is lifes main function. Particularly with animals that feed other life forms(support the ecosystem).

On the other end, you could say its healthy if it lives until tomorrow. Thanks FR

Is it possible you are trying too hard? It can be very difficult for someone to know exactly when a female is receptive (cycling). In my experience by the time I realize something is happening it's already too late. Maybe by the time you recognize the signs she is no longer interested?

One of the reaons I build large cages is to allow the monitors a chance to get away from one another. I know that folks advocate all kinds of tricks to introduce monitors, but I believe you should get them healthy and add the male to the females cage long before she cycles. You may be in a different situation because of the size of your monitors, but I think you may be contributing to the problems by always fiddling with them. Introduce them and hope they don't kill each other is sometimes all you can do.

Good Luck

maybe i am butting in too much. when they would go at it, i was there to referee when i could have left them to work it out. separating them just got them no where, and so i begin again. when 2 6 foot salvators fight, theres alot of power and speed involved. lots of biting and shaking, lots of twisting and running. i could risk it by walking away and letting them duke it out, but only in a larger enclosure than i currently use. two 8 foot enclosures attached isnt enough, as theres really no where to go to get away. -john

I've never kept animals that grow that large so it's hard for me to imagine the intensity when they fight. I try to keep monitors that max in the 4-5 foot range.

If I were you, I'd try and work on the caging situation before trying any of the other stuff. You may be able to add more cage furniture and duplicate resources (water,heat, etc) to limit the fighting. You are probably at a point where you need to decide if breeding her is worth the risk of her being killed.

I wouldn't cool a cycling monitor, in case something goes wrong she might need the heat.

Good Luck

A couple things, first you need to take advice "in context" That is, when I or someone says, monitors do this or that, that means monitors normally do this or that, it does not mean your individual will do this or that. Think about this, monitors that have learned to be with other monitors are in a certain context, monitors that are loners and do not understand how to life with other monitors are not in the same context, they are out of that context.

With that understood, if you have a screwed up female that will not tolerate any males, then if breeding is your goal, get another one.

I said many years ago, the best way to get good pairs is to raise babies together. That still stands today. Its not the only way, its the best way. After doing that, the percentage of success drops quickly. Its always about percentages.

You must understand, that even individuals raised together may not get along. Again its about percentages. There are always rouge individuals that do not get along with many or any.

Also, as RSG mentioned, what you do may have a lot to do with it. For instance, when introducing monitors, they often fight. That does not mean they will not get along. They will always show their stuff when a new individual enters their territory. Its what happens after that, sometimes long after that. If you switch and change at the drop of a hat, you are not helping, but instead getting in the way.

Also you need to consider, your monitors are in captivity. What does that mean, it means they cannot get away from eachother if they want to.

I do not have any pairs of large monitors that "get along" each and every day. They may require time away from eachother every now and then. I mention this because of the weird way folks want all things to be black or white. They seem to want "bonded pairs" to be bonded 24/7, 365. Guess what, they don't. Back to captivity, captivity means, you the keeper must recognize what they are doing and respond to it.

Now back to you, the problem with not having experience is, you do not know what to look for to make those decisions.

As you know, I believe monitors to be very social, in fact I believe they have a very complicated social system. But they are not suppose to be glued at the hip in a small cage.

After all that, its plain, you know what your options are. You are the only one to decide what direction to take. Good luck in that decision, FR

Frank is there any good reason not to cool a cycling monitor? I mean its not like if the ovum’s where fertilised, how can it harm a female? or can it harm a female?
Just curious

Hi Jobi, I don't cool any monitors, I give them choices and let them do what they want. As you have heard in the past, I do not believe in cooling. If you have or need to cool any reptile, your not giving the right choices. So I offer choices.

So, with that in mind, I have no idea what it would do, you know, cooling a cycling monitor. I can't believe its a good thing, but who knows. FR

I understand and fully agree with you, however given John’s limited space and very large monitors, it’s really all I have to offer him. I guess John will just have to take a gamble one way or an other, I wish him good luck.

Rgds