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I have been reading about both King and Milksnakes as of late, but I cannot come across anything that describes the fundamental differences between the two. Scale counts, location, behavior? If a new species was discovered, what would determine whether it would be classified as a Kingsnake or Milksnake?

Thanks
Jeff

Kingsnakes include all species of the genus Lampropeltis except L. triangulum. The milk snakes are the various subspecies of L. triangulum. Though this is not 100% true because the scarlet kingsnake is in L. triangulum.

If a new Lampropeltis species turned up, it would probably be called some kind of a kingsnake.

Paul Hollander

those are only names that we (humans) assigned to them. If you found a snake that looked like either would you be able to classify it into one of these groups using specific criteria as a guide?

ex. The average person would probably think an ETB is the same as a GTP, but there are obvious differences (i.e locale, birth vs hatch, size and many others that I am not aware of)

To me Milks and Kings seem to be the same except that at one time specific breeds were classified as such and it stuck.

those are only names that we (humans) assigned to them. If you found a snake that looked like either would you be able to classify it into one of these groups using specific criteria as a guide?

Actually, just the opposite is true. Things are different species simply because we can tell them apart. In fact, many species can't be told apart by simply looking at them (Slimy Salamanders, certain rodents, etc). These are real species and they are as different as any other two species but we can't tell them apart by looking at them.

To me Milks and Kings seem to be the same except that at one time specific breeds were classified as such and it stuck.

Milksnakes and and the different species of Kingsnakes have long been recognized as separate lineages of snakes. Here's an analogy:

Red Milksnakes and Mexican Milksnakes are like siblings. They aren't the same, but they are closely related and share a lot of common characteristics.

California Kingsnakes and Speckled Kingsnakes can also be seen as siblings.

However, a Red Milksnake and a Speckled Kingsnake are more like cousins. They are related, and share some similarities, but the Red Milksnake and Mexican Milksnake share more similarities than either does with the Speckled Kingsnake.
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Chris Harrison

those are only names that we (humans) assigned to them. If you found a snake that looked like either would you be able to classify it into one of these groups using specific criteria as a guide?

Actually, just the opposite is true. Things are NOT different species simply because we can tell them apart. In fact, many species can't be told apart by simply looking at them (Slimy Salamanders, certain rodents, etc). These are real species and they are as different as any other two species but we can't tell them apart by looking at them.

To me Milks and Kings seem to be the same except that at one time specific breeds were classified as such and it stuck.

Milksnakes and and the different species of Kingsnakes have long been recognized as separate lineages of snakes. Here's an analogy:

Red Milksnakes and Mexican Milksnakes are like siblings. They aren't the same, but they are closely related and share a lot of common characteristics.

California Kingsnakes and Speckled Kingsnakes can also be seen as siblings.

However, a Red Milksnake and a Speckled Kingsnake are more like cousins. They are related, and share some similarities, but the Red Milksnake and Mexican Milksnake share more similarities than either does with the Speckled Kingsnake due to more recent shared ancestry.
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Chris Harrison

....This is why I am asking the question.

There are many different types of Kings and Milks and for the most part they all look and behave somewhat differently. Take Gray Bands, Californians, Sinaloans and Pueblans. Each are different than one another, but two are classified as Kings and two as Milks? Why? Why do they lump them together in the classifieds?

I'm not trying to be a wise guy or pretend that I am an expert. I'm just trying to understand why they are so closely related, but stilled classified differently. What do Kings share with other Kings and Milks share with other Milks?

thanks
jeff

The name kingsnake is generally applied to any snake of the genus Lampropeltis. The exception is the species Lampropeltis triangulum, which are generally referred to as milksnakes. The reason they are referred to as milksnakes has to do with them being found in and around barns in the eastern/midwestern US, and because of that, being given a reputation for sucking milk from cows. This is just how they happened to be named, and it doesn't mean that they are any less closely related to a Cal king than a Grayband king is. When further subspecies of Lampropeltis triangulum were described they were given the common name milksnake because they belonged to the same species of snake that were already called "milksnakes". The exception to the rule is the scarlet king from the southeastern US, which, while being called a kingsnake, is still a subspecies of Lampropeltis triangulum. There is no physical difference for it be called a kingsnake, that is just how it was named. The classifieds group kingsnakes and milksnakes because snakes bearing those common names belong to the same genus, Lampropeltis.

That every type of "Kingsnake" I knew (4 or more) was more active and aggressive than every type of "Milksnake" that I've known or heard of. Even in their cages at pet stores, Kings seem to be more active than Milks.

Behavior seems to be a salient factor; Kingsnakes seem to be less timid and more confident. Go figure.

Besides, if the subcategory Triangulum exists, this implies that there is a definite reason for it, separated by some specific, likely physical trait. Maybe someone who reads Latin can embellish??

The species "triangulum" DOES exist. Members of this species can be distinguished from other species in the genus Lampropeltis by scalation, morphology of body characters such as spination of the hemipenes, gene flow and shared genetic material, amongst other things. The species "alterna", "getula", "mexicana", and all other species in Lampropeltis can be distinguished from one another in the same manner. All milksnakes belong to the species Lampropeltis triangulum. Milksnakes are one SPECIES of kingsnake.
-Cole

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Ok, I have a question to add to this then. Are you able to breed a kingsnake with a milk snake?

~ZF

I think your asking about such things as general shape, scale count, rib and vertabre count, tooth count and structure, etc. Yes there are differences, but unfortunately, sometimes they overlap. You can look up the differences, its been so long ago, I forget.

Sometimes with new types of reptiles, there is no way to really tell which group they fall into. So they are thrown into the most logical group, based on the above and locality. Later research will often reclassify them.

This was common back in the late sixties and early seventies, when we worked on many of the mexican montane kings. We would find questionable snakes and take them to the university to have them key them out. They often failed. For instance, we could find milksnake Tharyi and a from of milksnake in the exact same place.

After awhile we learned some very basic differences. And these had to do with behavior in captivity. For instance, montane kings copulate for 8 to 15 minutes(average) milksnakes copulate for 30 to 45 minutes, and getulus for over an hour up to 3 hours.

I am sure that now with all these crosses, this can be totally mucked up. But it served us well with wild caught kings and milks.

There are also types of kings and milks that were and are mis-identifyed. Again for instance, I had the first world Quererro king breeding. Except for the L.A. zoo, they had bred a snake they bred they called L.t.arcifera, which was not really arcifera, but instead ruthiveni(sorry for all the mis-spellings) Dalles zoo, was breeding the real milksnake, V.t.arcifera. They bred theirs before I did, but called it something else.

Also, the first Ruthivens king was discribed as an intermediate between milksnakes and montane kingsnakes. In reality is pure mountain king. By the way, I found the fifth thru the 27 ruthenvens king in 3 hours. Odd how animals can go unnoticed for so long. I hope this helps. FR

Initially, I thought that there was an obvious difference that just eluded me up to this point. Compared to most on this site I know very little beyond the care requirements of my reptiles which is my main focus. I thought that it was odd that everyone seemed to support that there is a difference, without knowing what they were (or at least one).

If you get Ron Markell's book, "Kingsnakes and Milk Snakes" 1990 TFH Publishing, it has a list of defining characteristics of all the species of Kingsnakes (which includes Milks). I'd list them here, but I'm not sure how copyright laws would apply. So, look up that book and you'll find your answer
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Ace

Did I ask a taboo question? Why should I have to buy a book just to find out some simple facts? I hope you weren't serious about copyright infringement? I'm sure the author doesn't own this information. If that was the case they should close all forums b/c I would guess that just about all the info passed on is written down in some book.

You know what? I think no one knows the answer(s)! Come on you experts

Take it easy on the "experts". This is a hobbyist site, and there's lots of very knowledgeable people here. Unfortunately the question of taxonomy is extremely complicated, especially when it comes to the differences between milks and kings. As has been already stated, milksnakes are one of the species of the genus lampropeltis (lampropeltis triangulum). There are about 25 or so recognized subspecies of milksnake and all types of intergrades. The thing most milks have in common is that most of them have a three color ring pattern (usually red, black, white). There are lots of exceptions to this rule. There are also several species of kingsnakes that have three color ring patterns (especially mountain kings, and some mexican kings) that are not considered milks. I suggest you research the official differences between kings and milks for all of us. I'm sure scale counts, external morphology, etc.. play a big part in the decision. You be the expert! Enlighten us. Greg

I appreciate your explanation. At least now I understand the need for doing my own research.

btw, I was only joking about the "expert" comment. If thats what motivated you to reply it worked....lol

thanks
jeff

>Did I ask a taboo question? Why should I have to buy a book >just to find out some simple facts?

You didn't ask a taboo question, you asked an invalid one. You're question is akin to asking what's the difference between apples and fruit. Apples are fruit, so there can be no difference, as Milksnakes ARE Kingsnakes, so there is no real answer to THAT question. However, there are definable differences between each species of Kingsnake that make them what they are. Which are all listed in Markell's book. Asking a vague question like you did, you should expect vague answers. Ask a more defined question, as "What's the difference between getulas and triangulum" and you'll get a more defined answer.

P.S.- What defines getulas (and calligasters) from triangulum are their maxillary (rear) teeth. Triangulum have longer and stouter rear teeth than both. But, it doesn't nessecarily define them from other species of Kings. There are other defining characteristics to seperate the remaining species from each other. Buy the book and learn more .
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Ace

>You didn't ask a taboo question, you asked an invalid one. You're question is akin to asking what's the difference between apples and fruit. Apples are fruit, so there can be no difference, as Milksnakes ARE Kingsnakes, so there is no real answer to THAT question. However, there are definable differences between each species of Kingsnake that make them what they are. Which are all listed in Markell's book. Asking a vague question like you did, you should expect vague answers. Ask a more defined question, as "What's the difference between getulas and triangulum" and you'll get a more defined answer.

Now, why could you or anyone just else have said that from the beginning? The question was valid to me because I didn't have this information.

>P.S.- What defines getulas (and calligasters) from triangulum are their maxillary (rear) teeth. Triangulum have longer and stouter rear teeth than both. But, it doesn't nessecarily define them from other species of Kings. There are other defining characteristics to seperate the remaining species from each other. Buy the book and learn more .

Once again, this is something that could have been said the first time around. I will take your suggestion and buy the book.

May not sound like it, but I do appreciated your time and info.

thanks again
jeff

I've had that book for years...it's a great one to keep in the library...Helane

The difference between kings and milks is a completely arbitrary naming convention that has nothing to do with morphology, or anything, really. The taxonomy is arranged pretty arbitrarily too... the Scarlet king, which others have mentioned, is the prime example of that. Also, Eastern milksnakes have more in common, morphologically, with common cornsnakes than they do with most other milksnake subspecies, and it's very easy to cross corns, milks, kings, and even gopher snakes, and produce fertile offspring. The ability to breed and produce fertile offspring is one of the main criteria for the definition of "species", yet these groups of snakes are classified as different species, different genuses even. So, apparently even the "experts" can't make logical sense of it.

Just my amateur "hobbyist" opinion of course!

Nate

Hi Nate, My "hobbyist" opinion isn't worth much, but I don't think it's a totally arbitrary decision to put some snakes into the species triangulum. Not once in this thread have I seen someone claiming to have some sort of herpeteology degree or background in taxonomy (this includes me). The original poster should take this question to the taxonomy forum on this site.
Center for North American Herpetology