Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was somewhat dissapointed at the lack of detail of this aspect in the "reproductive husbandry of pythons and boas". Lets just say you walk into your room- and you see her laying eggs.

Can you begin to just grab them without her freaking out? Ive seen it done before, and it seems to me that the python goes into a "Trance" like state of being.

Lets just say you walk into your room, and she wrapped tightly around her eggs. "Reproductive husbandry" simply says, they're technique is to Place two hands on the female, one by the head and one by the body supporting as to not be able to strike...and another person removing any loose eggs. What can you do?

Bloods are huge thick snakes, so in your experience, how does this sort of thing go down? Will the female destroy her eggs by stricking? Typically, when my snake(s) is angry at me and in the strike position, all I have to do is mist him/her and she backs right the hell down. CAn this same trick be applied to a brooding female ready to strike and destroy her own eggs?

I just thought I would gather some information on an under-discussed topic. Please share your experience!
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Everything I saw was a terrible bore because I'd seen it all before

The Civil Surface, 1974

A Female is not going to destroy its eggs. She will protect them, but not harm them. It is up to you how to get it off its eggs. Some Females will be absolutly viscious, others may be relatively calm. Just be careful that YOU don't harm the eggs. Thier really isn't a standard way to remove them, that is going to depend on your setup and situation.

in the reproductive husbandry, it says that females destroy their clutches many times (keep in mind this is like 1990). They arent smart thinkers; they *think* they are protecting their eggs but inadvertantly destroying their eggs by striking
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Everything I saw was a terrible bore because I'd seen it all before

The Civil Surface, 1974

Don't take this the wrong way, but the animal knows a whole lot more about itself than what we think we know. A female is not going to invest the time and energy just to destroy a clutch defending it. These animals have evolved to overcome that, or we wouldn't see the numbers we do in captivity or the wild. These animals aren't stupid, and people don't give them the credit they deserve. Like I said in my previous post, we ( humans ) are the biggest threat to a clutch, especially when it comes to removing and incubating eggs. A book is only a guide; The animal will teach, show, etc. you what it needs, and often those needs are totally different than what a book will tell you. Every set up is different and you have to adjust and adapt to your situation.

Hey,
Most females whose eggs I have harvested for artificial incubation, have never resisted nor offered to bite or strike if you will, ever! Most are just too lazy and tired to even attempt or are just plain use to my intrusion over all to care. At any rate, I find that lifting a female with very little strong-arming and a lot of care and finesse is all that is needed when removing her from her clutch. Care must be taken to ensure that all of her weight is secured while removing her and that the eggs are not being lifted off of the surface of the container as these eggs are very likely to drop and roll with possible dire consequences.

The use of a towel is recommended, but like you, I found that just working with the snakes without a towel, was all that was needed with my particular females. They were all very amenable and offered no resistance during the process, thus making the experience uneventful in a good way. Some eggs will be found to be loose whilst others will be found to form a large cohesive mass that is best to work with as is, and any attempts at separating be abolished as the process of separating is too risky. I have done so, but in the end it is not worth the risk of losing eggs to it.

I hope this is enough. You must exercise patience and practical know how, what ever that is in your experience and take your time. Have your holding cage or other container ready to put her in and keep her calm. Good luck!

-Angel
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In life you can fall many times, but you're only a failure, if you don't try to get back up!
Evil Canevil

I would have to agree with Angel. I have taken a lot of eggs from female bloods/borneos and never really had a problem at all. If you catch the female as she is laying or right after, she is so tired she really has no fight in her. Maybe I should
"knock on wood", but I have never had a female fight me right after laying her eggs. I always feel sorry for them when I take their eggs from them. You can walk in a couple days later and they will still be coiled up wanting to protect their eggs. Great little spirits in bloods, so respect them and they will respect you. Best of luck with all your animals... jody

Could there be a market for artificial eggs to keep a broody mom happy while the real eggs are being artificially incubated??

Great idea, but I find it doesn't work out for the best. The female will take the artificial eggs pretty easy. I have even seen a female take a rat that was offered as food and wrap around it. I walked in and was shocked thinking she had another egg a week later, instead it was a day old rat. The problem is, that as long as your female is wrapped around the eggs she won't eat. She is off her food while setting her up for breeding, then while carring her eggs, and then while she wraps around them to incubate the eggs. I find that even if you let her wrap artificial eggs for a short time she will still go through the process of missing her eggs when they are removed. The only way I have seen a female without that short time period of missing her eggs, is when she was able to hatch out her own eggs. I didn't think my girls needed to go the extra time without food, and I don't get as many bad eggs if I incubate them myself. I find if you have another cage to move the female into after you remove the eggs, this helps her recover faster. If you can't offer another cage, then taking her out and washing down her cage really good to get out all them smells of birthing also helps. I guess it's funny that a guy worries so much for the female after birth, but hey I do all I can to make sure my girls are happy, and my boys feel like studs, lol... Sorry for the long post, hope it at least gives you something fun to think about... Jody

Hey,
I don't find it necessary to further confuse or traumatize females post parturition, by introducing artificial eggs. Once the experience is over for her, the best thing to do is to get her back on track and on a good feeding cycle. Females will lose up to 30% of their body weight during the process and the best thing to do is get them back to eating as quickly as possible. I've had females take food in the first week and even days after egg laying with no problems associated from harvesting their clutch of eggs. Even females still exhibiting brooding tremors will ususally eat within their first or second week following egg laying.

Greenman, said it best. By removing females from the associated container, you remove her from a recognizable environment and all scent associated with parturition can them be wiped clean. Normal behavior will usually resume within the first to second week.

-Angel
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In life you can fall many times, but you're only a failure, if you don't try to get back up!
Evil Canevil

So, first of all, are you guys incredibly positive that the female is too tired to fight back? Can anyone here attest to having a female blood python attack while trying to defend her eggs? Or is it every single time....she is simply too tired? If so, that is very good news as I imagined a striking blood python on a clutch of eggs must be very harmful to the eggs. The blood pythons have a very STRONG strike I've noticed...maybe not as fast as Scrubs, but they pack a very muscular punch...and I imagined a female coiled around her eggs would inadveretantly crush the eggs while striking with all of her force. I guess anyone here with a *bad* experience romoving the eggs from a female is highly encouraged to post, and to include a personal remedy they think to have made..?

I'd also like to ask a few opinions on breeding. I know a lot of publications glorify the blood python as a very simply bred snake, often not requiring any NTL temp changes at all. What are your opinions on that? I personally feel that cooling would be beneficial...as it really cant hurt anything to try. After the cooling period (or not), how do you guys go about the physical breeding?

I would imagine the female is introduced into the males cage? Is there a certain way you should do this? In my experience, the bloods are ALWAYS sleeping, and never moving around. So if you introduce an awake female into a sleeping males cage, does he typically wake right up and start flicking? Or does it typically take hours for courting to occure?

One last question I always wondered to ask actual hobbyist breeders was; how long do you keep them together? After you put the female into the males cage, do you keep them togther for 3 weeks straight? Or do you separate them after a week to "freshen up" again? Or do you simply wait until the male has lost interest?

I appreciate all of your cogent responses as they have been very helpful to the questions I have had regarding breeding blood pythons.

Thanks

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Everything I saw was a terrible bore because I'd seen it all before

The Civil Surface, 1974

I will never say Never, so no I don't think you could ever assume that any animal won't strike. I stated that I never had that problem, and the reasons why I felt I never had those problems. I know my snakes very well, and my animals are also my pets. You may find a wild female will bite. I have a couple of wild caught females, but "knock on wood" still no problems. If I was dealing with a wild caught female that showed that she was going to put up a fight, I would wear gloves and a heavy shirt to help protect myself I guess. Their are so many nice bloods out there, I don't see why I would even deal with such a mean one, unless she was a one of a kind animal. I am so happy that I have great bloods, and this has not been a problem for me. Who knows, maybe someone else has had a killer female, I wouldn't keep one like that. Best of luck with all your animals. When in doubt, play it safe. Jody

Here are some notes to your questions from my perspective and limited experience:

I've produced P. curtus curtus and Borneo's.

>>So, first of all, are you guys incredibly positive that the female is too tired to fight back?

In all cases, the females were defensive, but none ever made a HUGE move to nail me. I believe the concern for the eggs is greater than the defense in most cases and they parry more than strike. I'm sure there are Red Blood keepers with different stories though...

>>I'd also like to ask a few opinions on breeding. I know a lot of publications glorify the blood python as a very simply bred snake, often not requiring any NTL temp changes at all. What are your opinions on that? I personally feel that cooling would be beneficial...as it really cant hurt anything to try. After the cooling period (or not), how do you guys go about the physical breeding?

I cool mine exactly as I do with my Ball Pythons. They are all in the same room and Freedom Breeder rack system.

You can actually read more about it at this link (scroll down the page). It's nearly identical for the Borneo breeding:
http://www.monkeyfrog.com/ballpythondatapage.html

>>I would imagine the female is introduced into the males cage?

The exact opposite here. The male is 'the wanderer', so I only place him in her cage. Never the other way around. I do this with all my snakes.

>> Is there a certain way you should do this? In my experience, the bloods are ALWAYS sleeping, and never moving around. So if you introduce an awake female into a sleeping males cage, does he typically wake right up and start flicking? Or does it typically take hours for courting to occure?

If the male is interested, he will start spurring her immediately. NO delay! The courtship (tail slaps, urinating, spurring) can go on for hours and hours. Eventually, if he's 'lucky' they will copulate. This too can last a while.

>>One last question I always wondered to ask actual hobbyist breeders was; how long do you keep them together? After you put the female into the males cage, do you keep them togther for 3 weeks straight? Or do you separate them after a week to "freshen up" again? Or do you simply wait until the male has lost interest?

I wait until the male is no longer 'resting' on the female. If they are sitting apart, he goes back into his cage for at least 5 to 7 days. Then, back in. Repeat from December until March or whenever they truly show no more interest upon each reintroduction.

Bottom line: ALL bloods are great. My personal favorite are the Borneo. My adults are completely tame (although dangerous at feeding time). Babies are rough around the edges, but calm after a few months of work and wind up just like the parents... tame.

If you don't have any... get some! They are wonderful.

Included is a pic of 'mom' on her 21 eggs (deposited 05/06/05). All the eggs look good so far, so I'm keeping my fingers, eyes and toes crossed!

Hope this helps some...

Matt

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"Change what you cannot accept... do not accept what you can't change!"

Tod Ashley C.$.C.