Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anybody out there use high pressure sodium,metal halide or mecury vapor lamps?My guy's have acess to lots of natural sunlight in the spring-fall (5-7 months) but would like to start experimenting with these types of lights this upcoming winter.
I havn't had any problems with regular bulbs but wonder how benificial(besides heat of course) they really are?
I am familiar with the logistics of these bulbs(balast etc)but was wondering if anyone is using them and what sort of result you are getting...if any?
Cheers Ben

Why fix what aint broken?

Scott
-----
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Well, that was some helpful insight.

Hi Ben, lighting is a complicated question. Its complicated because its normally more about the keeper then the kept.

For instance in your case, you build exhibits. An exhibit is normally veiwable, which means it has height. So lighting is normally from the top of the cage. You need an entirely different type of lite to accomplish this, then to heat the monitors.

For instance, your dum cages have more height then depth. Monitors of all types use depth more then height. In the case of monitors, depth is inside, inside the ground, inside trees, etc. Most of their life is in these places. In the case of Dums, most of their life is in bogs, wet, swampy, mud holes, hollows of all sorts, mud tunnels, etc. I would think this would amount to over half of their cage, not just the very bottom.

With this in mind, I chose to keep monitors in what they do, not in an exhibit. For this, we needed lites that fit this. Lites we could put in the cage and heat particular spots, lites that did not waste finite resources(energy) Lites that could produce a heat range and include the most important part, the cool part. In order to do this, we chose to use low wattage bulbs and place them as needed, while still keeping cool choices.

Also, you insinuate that a certain kind of lite may be of a health benefit to monitors. I have not seen this in any way. I have kept monitors outside in real sunlight for 14 yrs now and at the same time, kept monitors solely inside under litebulbs. Both indoor and out have gone generations and generations without any difference and no health problems. So I have to feel that this UV thing is a little blown out of proportion. I actually feel they, the monitors, avoid direct Uv exposure whenever possible.

A couple of years ago, I did some field work with the Seri people. I got to talk to Seri medicine men. The project was desert tortoise. Their name for the desert tortoise was, the one who walks with his back to the sun. Which means mourning and evening. Low sun angle. This is very true for wild monitors. They are out mostly in the mourning and late afternoon, when the sun and its UV is at its weakist. This is important to understand.

My first attempt at outdoor cages resulted in some blind monitors, not enough shade.

Which leads to high intensty bulbs, be careful, read the warnings. Then somehow teach the monitors to not look at the bulbs.

I will end this post with what Scott said, why fix what ain't broken. The insight is, its been shown that regular incandesent and halogen bulbs work very well in providing heat and temp choices. They are also relatively inexpensive and very available. After many years of using lite bulbs, availability is very very important. Also after replacing thousands of bulbs, cost is also important. After all, a machine(your cage is a machine) is only as good as its ability to be maintained. Also I did not know all posts are suppose to have insight, why can't a post just be a post? Thanks FR

Hi FRank
First off my enclosure is an enclosure not an exhibit,the only people who view it are me, my girlfriend and now ks because I decided to share.It is made to be functional not viewable!!!!!!!!
If you look, the large tree on the right is hollow,and all the branches are climbable(not to mention the walls),my monitors use all the cage all the time.Come on by if you dont believe me,Ive got a spare room and make a damn fine "beer can chicken".
Dum's are arboreal/aquatic and as you said no such thing as a arboreal cage,just verticaly oriented.This cage isn't even vertically oriented,all I'm doing is using my space well and letting my guy's move around a bit.Do you think 8 ft tall is where the bog stops and arboreal starts?Why dont you tell this to my monitors,they seem to have it all wrong!As far as cool space goes I have a great thermal gradient70-80 on the cool side and all the way up to 130-140 whenever they want 24 hrs a day.I do provide a photoperiod but run the same wattage 24/7.Lots of low watts, always have done it that way.Multiple daily mistings a large water container under the lights and the right kind of ventilation help me to maintain 70-90% humidity.I also have a large outdoor enclosure (with shade)I agree that there is no such animal as a permenant cage,and some day will provide much more depth than heigth.Many zoo's use the lights I mentioned without ill effects,but I also questioned their efficiency,that is why I asked.
later B.A

Thanks for the offer Ben, sounds great.

But please do not be so sensitive. The post is about lites, lites are about they type of cage involved. So this is not about if your cages work or do or whatever. Its merely about how the lites work with a cage. For instance, if your liting a cage with lots of air space, like yours, and you do not want lites in the cage, it will take an entirely different type of lite. On the other hand, if you are liting a cage that is 50/50, air space to subterrrian, and you want to use lites in the cage(not good for exhibits) then again, it would be a different choice.

About an exhibit, its does not matter who or whom views the cage, if it has designs to exhibit, then it is one. For instance, your cages exhibit your artificial work. They do not have lites in the cage, the reason is, that would interfere with the exhibit qualities of the cage. Of course I can only go by what I see, you may have lites in the cage, but chose not to show them for exhibit reasons.

You insinuated the type of lite may have something to do with health, then that would be a totally different discussion. In may experience, the type of lite is not important, its the effects of the heat that is. I could go farther into that if thats the direction you want to take.

So please Ben do not act like others here and make all about you and right or wrong. Your post was about lites, I responded in that direction, as best I could. I do not have to be right or wrong, neither do you. Its merely discussion.

Whats sorely missing on this forum is discussion between successful keepers and other successful keepers. Discussion on our different approaches and why we choose them. You should understand as a successful keeper, there are thousands of right ways and thousands of wrong ways. Why on earth do people think there is only one right way? I know as a successful keeper, that I incorperate many right ways and a few wrong ways as daily practice. I also change day to day and year to year, using and experimenting with other right ways and in doing so, expose many wrong ways.

I have to believe that folks are so sensitive because they do not understand, the previous paragraph.

So if you want to make it all about you and if your wrong or right, I will do like I do with so many others, avoid your posts. FR

I can not address that post,you have made so many assumptions that it would be impossible to respond to without it sounding defensive.
Cheers-Ben Aller

I have nothing else to go by. A couple of pics, thats it. So yes, assumptions is all the rest. I have to wonder, doesn't discussion help clear that up?

For instance, Why do you use artificial wood instead of real? I have ideas why you may, but I do not know. The truth is, whatever reason you do that, is fine. Theres nothing wrong with it. Even if you use your work in your cages to sell more of your work. Thats great. Theres nothing wrong with it.

The same goes for the lites, without more information, I can only shotgun responses. I have no idea what your intent is.

For instance, if your going for a better exhibit cage, that M/H or M/V lites are great, they show off colors well. But if your looking at the health of your monitor, or the availability of the lites. Then thats another story.

I do wonder about about posts that ask how something works and when you get the, " I did that and it was great" response. Then you are happy about that. I get the feeling one should ask, how, where, why, what, etc, in order to make it worthwhile. Thanks FR

Well, lets see if we can staighten this all out.
my main problem is what you assume.
1st about lights,if you read my post I simply ask about results and do not imply anything-you assume I think they are benificial,why?You say I insinuate this, how?-please answer.
When someone tells me their experience I thank them and ask follow up questions and you accuse me of being a yes man and not asking questions.Huh??
2nd the pic's you have to go off clearly show the lights INSIDE the enclosure!You of all people should know how hard it is to get good pictures of these enclosures,exhibits, whatever you want to call them.
3rd I use lights to heat my enclosures,no pig blankets heat tape or any other heat element.The sun heats from above and so do my lights,good enough for me.
As far as cage props let me make this clear...my cages are designed to allow my monitors to display natural behaviors.They are made for my monitors not for me.Trust me if this were an "exhibit" it would look a lot nicer!
I use artificial wood because it is easily cleaned/disenfected,does not rot or decay,does not need pest removal,never wears out and most of all because I can manipulate the shapes and textures to resemble what would be available to wild monitors(never seen a flat plywood shelf in the jungle!)
-Dont get your panties in a wad over that one.-
This coupled with proper temps and humidity allows my monitors to function as naturally as possible.That I get to show my work is a secondary benifit.Again my monitors use these types of enclosures to the fullest extent-climbing,basking,digging,foraging,mating,laying-all of it,it's really fun to watch!
Mostly what gets under my skin is that i come here to discuss and am labled and dismissed.When I ask a question about an artical or lite,somehow i'm telling every one they are wrong and I'm right-I have never said anything even remotely close to that!When I ask a question it is assumed that I have a pre-concieved idea of what the answers should be.That could not be farther from the truth..Why would I ask??Re-read my posts,I have never suggested anyone do ANYTHING!I just asked questions,guess I'm just to sensitive and defensive.
I could go on for hours.
Frank-my interest is in providing exellent homes for my charges.
Not into telling you or anyone what is right.
I dont care what you do-it's cool with me,but discussions should be discussions not lectures-if you have questions just ask,don't assume,I will be happy to answer.You would be supprised how much we have in common(besides bad spelling).
If you are ever in Nor Cal you are always welcome-there is a hot meal and a cold beer waiting....if you please.
Cheers-Ben

Ben said,

Well, lets see if we can staighten this all out.
my main problem is what you assume.
1st about lights,if you read my post I simply ask about results and do not imply anything-you assume I think they are benificial

I did not assume anything, I said, if health is a concern. Thats not assuming anything. Its a possibility. I asked if that was your concern. After all you must have SOME concern or you wouldn't have asked. You asked if they work, would work mean, to lite up, or effect the monitors in a certain way. All lite bulbs are suppose to work.

Then you went on to say, When someone tells me their experience I thank them and ask follow up questions and you accuse me of being a yes man and not asking questions.Huh?? I do not believe I accused you or asked about your experience. I simply asked what are the intentions of the lites. I am now sure you have lots of preconcieved thoughts. I never asked what the temps were nor do I care. After all, you already explained how well your doing with dums. So forgive me, I believed you and I did assume no matter what kind of lites you use, you will obtain the right temperature range. Lites are only a tool, and you can use lots of different tools to do the same job.

Then you went on being defensive about all things on earth, flat plywood, who the heck mentioned flat plywood anywhere in any of the posts in this thread. You also mention "panties in a wad" its very clear, your the one with panties in a wad.

You insulted Scott for not offering any insight, Yet he offered a very simple insight, "if its not broke don't fix it". That my friend is insight. You could of asked what that meant. I then asked questions to allow you to offer your insight. Why you use artificical materials, etc. What are the intentions for the lites, etc. And all you do is become defensive. All you are suppose to do is offer your reasons. Its not about right or wrong.

Truthfully Ben, I do not care how you keep your monitors or why you keep them the way you do, I don't care if its right or wrong. Or if you think its right or wrong. I only offered you a chance to offer your insight. After all, thats what a forum is for, isn't it????????????

Let me think, if you posted a pic of a box with a hide, a water bowl, and a litebulb, someone will, no better yet, someone "is" suppose to comment on that. If you posted a pic of the best most natural cage is the world, someone again will and should comment on it. I believe thats the nature of forums, that is their purpose. I would think you would feel bad if no one said a stinking word.

If you truely understood monitors, and the right way to keep them, you would clearly understand, its not about A right way, or A wrong way. It is without question(OK theres lots of questions) having the right ways(many many ways) slightly outweight the many wrong ways and do so only for periods of time. ITs this period of time that tells you how well your doing. If you think about it, thats exactly how it works in nature. Most in nature die, but as long as enough survive and reproduce, then monitors in nature are succesful. Even in nature, there are many many wrong ways and poor decisions. Simply knowing when to cross a road is a chance to make a bad decision. Or monitors living and nesting close to a creek. It rains the water raises and both the monitor and its eggs are dead. That is a bad decision. In captivity the only difference is we make the decisions for the monitors. As long as our good decisions outweight the poor ones, monitors and by assoiation, the keepers can be successful. But for both, its only temporary. So Ben, is that insightful enough for you?

In the end it boils down to my first post, I love your cages and I love your montiors, but I have a few questions. ONly now i know not to ask, because your too defensive and insecure about them to actually comment about them. FR

"I use artificial wood because it is easily cleaned/disenfected,does not rot or decay,does not need pest removal,never wears out and most of all because I can manipulate the shapes and textures to resemble what would be available to wild monitors(never seen a flat plywood shelf in the jungle!)"

Sorry, but this struck me as hugely funny!
Your fake wood may resemble "what would be available to wild monitors" but you're only fooling yourself.
Do you think the monitors are fooled?
Do you think for one second that the monitors see those 'branches' as anything other than man-tainted resin?

Think for a second, Ben, they live in a world of darkness. Below ground. Smell and taste is everthing in their world. What can be seen matters little.

Relax a little. We all appreciate anyone with an interest in these animals and who makes an effort to make them happy. You have put forth a big effort...but who is it for? Those fake branches for example, please YOU and not the monitors. Be a big man here and admit that.
They know what wood is.
At least my plywood shelves contain some real wood, hahahahaha.

And as for decay, pests and bacteria, that is a part of their natural world too. Why on earth do they need 'disinfection'?? You're destroying all their smells...their home...
D.

You Said:
Your fake wood may resemble "what would be available to wild monitors" but you're only fooling yourself.
Do you think the monitors are fooled?
Do you think for one second that the monitors see those 'branches' as anything other than man-tainted resin?

I say:

I am aware that the artificial tree is not an exact replica of a piece of their natural environment. But,yes, I do think they are fooled. They use these branches as they would a real tree, because of it's textures and shape. This has nothing to do with smell or taste.

You Said:
Relax a little. We all appreciate anyone with an interest in these animals and who makes an effort to make them happy. You have put forth a big effort...but who is it for? Those fake branches for example, please YOU and not the monitors. Be a big man here and admit that.

I say:
Now, how is this not an attack. I address this issue in my previous post. You really believe that I built this JUST for me to look at and for my monitors to hang out on the floor. I am not going to continuously answer this question. You have obviously read the other posts.

So suggesting I be a "big man" and titling your post "hee hee hee", is that discussion or name-calling?

More to add:
Yeah monitors don't see but they can identify man made resin.
Is that what your saying?
Are you suggesting i should keep my monitors in a dark box?
Do you think they hang out on the bottom of the cage all day?
Ever heard of termites?
Do you think monitors feel texture?
How would you improve?
Don't tell me not to "reinvent the wheel", give me some of your own ideas if you have any.
Why do you think I care how you keep your monitors?
How is building a structure for my monitors to climb and bask for me?Is it because it looks appealing?Tell me why asethically pleasing and funcional is a bad thing?

What makes you think this cage does not function?

Cheers-
Ben Aller

Come on Ben take it easy. Who gives a flying mormon cricket what you use(people in Reno). If you like your artificial stuff, then by all means use it. In fact, maybe you can make it better. Even better suited then it is now.

I agree with Goon, monitors know its not wood, and for some things they could careless. If its a road, use it. They will climb up anything they can climb up, it it gets them somewhere they want to go. In Goons cages, she made a wood jungle gym, and her monitors use it. Sir, thats all its about.

Also, artificial materials do not smell like wood, feel like wood and for monitors who knows what it looks like to them. I imagine it looks like a means to a place.

What is different, first monitors in nature do not pick any wood or any branch or any hollow, they pick the ones that supply their needs. The first most important feature wood offers in nature is hollows. Does yours offer that? I believe monitors mainly live in trees that have hollows. They may hunt trees or branches without hollows, but they don't live there. These hollows must have the temperature ranges needed. Cool and hot. Which usually means these hollows have sun exposure. These hollows must also include a thicker part of the tree to insulate against that same sun.

Real wood has moisture and that is another reason monitors use hollows, it allows control over hydration levels. Real wood hollows, contain all sort of insects and other food items, geckos, frogs, lizards, snakes, mice, sugar gliders, So food is another reason they use wood(trees). The hollows they pick are also about security, that is, they pick holes they can barely squeeze into, this hinders predators. Please consider, monitors in nature are rarely far from a hole. In this case, holes in trees.

If I may make a silly statement. In the top end of Australia, most all holes and hollows that fit the above have monitors in them.

You should understand, I started with all sorts of artifical tools, wood, rock, etc. As I too had my own artificial enviornment company. But I soon learned, it really was only an interference. I even made soft wood and hollow logs. About the only serviceable item was rock water bowls and hide rocks.

Can you have healthy productive monitors and use artificial materials, of course you can. And I am happy you do. But please don't fool yourself into thinking the monitors are fooled by them like you are. Remember, this is a monitor forum, not an exhibits forum.

About Dums, I don't believe they are truly climbers, of course they are monitors and all monitors can and will climb. I believe they are a bit like american watersnakes, Nerodia sp. in that they climb to bask and dry off. I think dums are like mud snakes too, they live in bogs and swamps and burrow in the muck. But indeed climb to dry off and heat up. Again, very much like watersnakes. I believe they use a similar habitat as these two snakes. Also, its not about right or wrong, its only about what we think. The right or wrong part always comes later and smacks us right in our face. FR

The picture is a gravid wild Lacie by its hollow, possibly its nesting hollow. Enjoy

Monitors seem to love them. Any cage they can eat through is going to have problems with rot anyway.

--Robert

n/p

I have used mercury vapor lamps in the past. They gave off a more pleasing light, the extra blues helped to offset the orange and red heavy halogens and incandescents. It was nice for viewing my lizards, it seemed to bring their colors out more.

I didn't see any obvious health benifits, though.

The only problems were with the self balasted bulbs, which all burned out within three months. The externally balasted fixtures lasted quite a while.

Luke

Hi Luke!
Thanks for the response,what species did you try this with?
Did you attempt to grow plants in the enclosure with these lights?have you tried this with other reptile species? One of my customers uses M.V lamps with all his dart frogs with exellent results.thanks for your time.
cheers Ben

>>Hi Luke!
>>Thanks for the response,what species did you try this with?
>>Did you attempt to grow plants in the enclosure with these lights?have you tried this with other reptile species? One of my customers uses M.V lamps with all his dart frogs with exellent results.thanks for your time.
>>cheers Ben

Hi Ben,

The monitors I used mercury vapor lamps with were argus, Nile, ornate, and a salvator. I once looked after a young dumeril's for about a week, and I might have used a mercury vapor light on its enclosure in the meantime, but I had so little time with her I doubt it counts. Some of the argus and Niles had mercury vapor lights for long term durations (I installed a fixture, so I wasn't using those burn-out-all-the-time self balasted lamps).

Trying to grow plants with argus, Nile, ornate, or salvator monitors is pretty much an excercize in futility and frustration. Argus especially, they happily dig up any plant they can get to. The others mostly just break the plants by climbing on or over them (although they will dig them up, too). Maybe a very sturdy woody plant (like a large sago palm, perhaps) could do okay in a monitor enclosure if you could keep it from being undermined and having all its roots dug up. Maybe dumeril's monitors are less destructive, I don't know. On the other hand, giving them a plant every so often to demolish is probably a nice form of environmental enrichment for them.

I will add that there was one young argus I was growing up. My wife kept a cockatiel cage on top of its enclosure. The bird seed kept falling down through the crack where the door hinges were in the argus enclosure, and I kept getting seedlings sprouting. None of them ever lasted long, though.

My wife kept some young sulcata tortoises for a while with a mercury vapor lamp. They seemed to do okay with this setup. My main interest is with the monitors, with a passing side interest in the bull and gopher snakes, so I don't have much experience with lighting on different types of reptiles. If my objective was a nice diplay to show off pretty looking reptiles, I would happily use mercury vapor or metal halide lamps on any of them, though.

BTW, you mentioned sodium vapor lamps earlier. Ugh. The ghastly yellow light they give off looks horrible. I would rather use incandescents or halogens - not only better lighting, but a lot cheaper.

Good luck,

Luke

Thanks for your response.
I was hoping to start an enclosure 6mo to a year before moving my animals in there and trying to establish stong plants.
I do provide some real plants in some of my set-ups,and they do get dug up occasionally,but agree that this is good environmental enrichment.I just buy cheap plants.
Did you purchase your lights from hydroponic store or staight from distibutor?I realize some of my ideas are unpopular but I enjoy experamenting.thank you for your input!
cheers -B.A

I see nothing wrong with expermenting with cages, I do it all the time. I add stuff, remove stuff, move things to different places. I have tried a few differents lights and heat sources.
My conclusions always come back to one thing.
The K.I.S.S. method always seems to work the best.
I think your set up looks nice. All mine are very boring to look at if it wasn't for the lizards.
I don't have dums, so I can't comment on them, I keep argus, savs and albigs.
They seem to use simple things like alot of deep dirt, driftwood and logs and a nice size water bowl for depositing their waste.
I have about give up on making anything nice in the argus cage.
The crazy critter digs and digs and nothing stays where I want it. About all I can do is stand a few pieces of driftwood back up.
So my advise is to go get some cold beer, try those differnt lights, and tell "US" how they worked.
Like I said in an earlier post, nobodys cage is perfect.
We can all make improvements.

Scott

-----
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Yes a cold beer would do me good.
It's funny because my cage set up is exactly the same as yours(simple things like lots of dirt to dig in branches to climb on/hide in and a large water bowl for bathing/poo-ing)it just looks different.I wll take some time with new experements and get back to "you".Good luck to all of you.
Cheers-Ben