Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What's the best method and dosage per weight for the most common snake medications...

I read a lot about this, but that isn't the same as observations and practical techniques from our more experienced members...

Most folks say Panacur plus Flagyl makes a good treatment/prophylactic for internal parasites, but is it better injected or oral- and how do you accomplish each, especially on very large or small snakes...or even other herps, frogs, salamanders, etc

Thanks!!

Dosages of drugs are generally allometrically scaled by the weight & condition of the animal being treated. The prophylactic, aka "shotgun" approach is not recommended unless a valid problem can be confirmed via samples; ie.blood, salival, fecal,etc.

Well, that’s exactly what my question is, I thinks its fair to ask what adjustments one should make for circumstances- a more accessible way of saying "allometrically scaled".

Allometrically just means not dosed according to a simple linear formula like 1 mg per 100 grams of animal, but adjustments made for youth or age, very small or very large, sex, general condition of animal, type an habitat of animal…responding in consideration of many factors.

My question is meant to give those herpers who medicate or want to start medicating their animals some additional refinement to their techniques…

In a perfect world all vet care would be free, nearby and highly skilled in obscure exotics… but my question is meant to raise discussion of practical ways for effective and safe treatments to reach much further into the herp community than current avenues of treatment have.

Really, isn’t the shotgun approach a pretty practically useful one for parasite issues? Isn’t two runny, smelly mucousy stools in a row a strong indication of either microbial or worm infestation which merits further attention?

A combo dosage of Panacur and Flagyl is low in toxicity (although Flagyl should not be given to gravid females, it is causative for birth defects), forgiving for mis-dosage, and will work against almost all the possible culprits- pretty good first line of attack!

Coccidia (which don’t respond well to any treatment) and tapeworms (which require a rather toxic regimen) are about the only common things you won’t knock out this way.

If the situation doesn’t resolve with an inexpensive and safe first line defense, then expensive and possibly stressful tests can follow- usually the animal in question is in pretty bad shape by the time issues are raised, initially high levels of treatment are often what puts the nails in the coffin…

My intent is to point out that in real life, many more reptiles and amphibians would be saved if the knowledge how to figure (allometrically if you like) the proper doses of a few common medications and how to administer them, were more common.

Practically speaking, barking at someone to take an animal to a vet isn’t often very practical or helpful to the animal- like giving a quarter to a homeless person, the giver serves themselves by feeling like they’ve done something, but the situation really hasn’t changed for the one suffering.

The spectrum of interest in herps is far too broad for a rote answer…the small snakes and lizards and frogs I pick up in my backyard and keep a few days or weeks to observe and educate myself and my kid, are different than a person who has a corn snake as their cherished or not-so-cherished pet, is different than a breeder with a $9000 python morph. And newcomers, who often have taken on an animal without understanding what can go wrong, may be scared off from continuing to seek information by dismissive, hostile, or derogatory answers on forums…

Most people can figure out how to use Frontline type drugs, or even how much cough syrup to take themselves, so I don’t think that making a few simple meds more easily used for those who want to do it, would be a huge challenge.

And increased levels of treatment for parasites would mean much less transmission and carrying of sickness from collection to collection…how many of us have bought an animal only to see it suddenly die in a matter of days or rapidly decline, with no fecal production for testing? I’d like practical approaches, I’d really like to see that occurrence reduced…

Anyway, after a long and verbose journey (LOL) I come back to my original question, how do folks generally decide what meds to use, how do they figure the dosage, and what tricks and techniques do they then use to administer the dosage to the animal?

Thanks for your clarification. Here is my synopsis; however, I am an amateur and someone else that has a knowledge of treating reptiles &/or amphibians can add to this:

1.Purchase one or more books on reptile &/or amphibian medicine and study symptoms of illness, verification of the cause of illness-(samples/specimens taken & viewed under a microscope), and treatment.
2.Look at the book's formulary for the drug(s) required to cure the illness. Some of these formularies can be found using a search engine on the internet.
3. Have a scale & oral syringe or other measuring device available to measure your medication & if necessary, dilute, the correct tools and knowledge for administering the medication to the particular animal in question.

PS-Flagyl can be a very dangerous drug. It can be nephrotoxic if the animal treated is not kept properly hydrated.

*An experienced vet should be the first step of treating an ailing animal; especially for the in-experienced amateur* This is the main point that I, JoeysGreen and many others who post agree upon at all times.

First of all, I gave some mis-construed information re: side-effects of Metronidazole(aka Flagyl). As far as I've researched, it is not nephrotoxic, but can be un-safe if over-dosed and without supportive therapy. Some snake & turtle/tortoise species are sensitive to it & are usually given smaller doses or a different drug with similar action.

Side-effects from overdosing Metronidazole are:
head-tilting, ataxia,star-gazing, walking in circles, tremors, disorientation, seizures, etc.

Should be not be used or at a lesser dose for:
Certain species of turtles, tortoises and snakes, not used in gravid reptiles/amphibians, lesser dose or not used for any reptiles/amphib. w/ compromised hepatic(liver) function.

*Always work with a vet re: use and dosage.

I was interested to discover while reading up on this issue that the warnings about damage to unborn young are more suspicion than experience of such a thing in reptiles...Kaplan's site has a strong warning on this point but I wasn't able to back that up other than a general warning anywhere else... so I have to back away from my warning post above... does anyone have direct experience to this point?

Baytril I think is one drug that is strongly nephrotoxic in reptiles- different sources say IV hydration is recommended... that's beyond my resources!

It's very interesting that the blood/brain barrier operates so differently in turtles than other animals...rendering some drugs much more toxic to turtles...

I'm still learning a lot about this every day...

Instead of nephrotoxic you may have read neurotoxic which is definately a side affect of metronidazole overdoses.

For wombat, Baytril (enroflaxin) is more associated with tissue necroses at injection sites. The big killer to the kidneys is Amikacin and the hydration is definately important with this drug. Most drugs are nephrotoxic to some degree and the hydration and organ health in a patient is always a concern prior to administration. The pro's and con's of treatment and side affects are always a balancing act.

Great discussion!

Don't you hate it when you have a huge long response and your computer freezes!

Anyways, there's no way I'm typing all that out again, it must've been one of my longest posts ever, just wanted to wrap everything up nicely.

To sum it up (and you'll have to get the rest from reading previous responses)

1)no one is more qualified to treat your animals than a reptile vet. To go around this step is to add risk to your animals.
2)my position is for the best interests of the animals whether you have a thousand dollar snake, or a "free" wild caught garter snake, or hundreds of whatever animal
3)Self medicating animals on a responsible basis happens less than these forums may have you believe. Drugs are a presciption for a reason. For those that do this, they have first gained experienced, and have an ongoing relationship with a veterinarian.
4)Talk to your veterinarian, most are understanding enough to relate to your specific situation and IF they feel comfortable with your level of experience, maturity, and knowledge, they will often give you some lee-way on the drugs they allow you to take home.

I hope this helps you, and helps you understand my position.

I agree 100% with everything you’ve said here… I’d always take quality vet care as first choice, I don’t think there’s any possibility of arguing that at all…

I think the crux of the issue is in the question of how experienced an owner needs to be, and how accessible the treatment regimens are…and you make a very good point about having the close support of a really good vet, not just well-intentioned internet advice…

I think the discussion really concerns where along the scale from novice pet-owner to fully accredited DVM is right to try to diagnose and treat a pet…balanced against the scale of availability of outside vet care and the practical hurdles there are to using it.

My stance is that moving the critical meeting points of these curves towards it being easier for less experienced keepers to treat their herps will save herp lives and ease suffering.

One end of the spectrum is professional animal keepers: for example a dairy farmer: de-worming, oral antibiotics, vaccinations, treatment of superficial injuries, calving, many other veterinary tasks…all handled in house… I think they would fall well into the category of experienced, well researched and closely vet supported.

I think many experienced animal breeders from dogs and cats to corn snakes or geckos would also be along that end of the spectrum of qualified care givers…

Another idea is that of experienced keepers of traditional domestic pets- if my 0.3 felinus behaviorus terribilus get ear mites I don’t need to pay 3 vet visit fees to diagnose the situation… or treat it…

With mammals deworming or treating infected eyes, superficial cuts (can you tell I favor adopting from shelters?)…heartworm and flea medicines- these are all well-understood situations with easy to use medicines…

When you cross over into cold-blooded critters there are more complex considerations…it's much harder to diagnose and especially administer without stressing and harming the animal...

Take Japanese Koi… until very recently there has been zero veterinary care available for fish… now it is primarily only at research veterinary colleges.

For years koi keepers have relied on each other both for information and in hierarchies of expertise and equipment. Koi keepers share this information fully, from simple tips every pond-keeper can do to improve their water, to surgical removal of tumors in your garage… each keeper does what they are are comfortable with and relies on more experienced fellow enthusiasts if care is required beyond their abilities…

There are 2 or 3 guys in the regional koi club who have good scopes and are confident in IDing microfauna and comfortable anaesthetizing and injecting fish. There simply is no real koi vet in existence.

So the individual mostly diagnoses and treats their own animals- there really are a limited number of treatable conditions, and a limited number of treatments, most pertaining to infections or parasitizations, almost always secondary to poor water conditions.

See the attached photo of a fish from my pond- it was speared through the shoulder flesh, ripped out the gills and exited the gill plate- very serious injury! A combination of antibiotic-laced food, liberal application of Neosporin to the wound, and repeated mild potassium permanganate baths as disinfectant, pulled this fish through and it returned to full activity with very little scarring.

The downside is that some folks go haywire- folks forget that microbes are always with us, purchase megawatt UV sterilizer units to try to eliminate all micro-organisms form the water, perform drastic regular prophylactic permanganate treatments, obsessively scope slime scrapings, purchase multi-thousand dollar filter systems… and some fish get killed when guys miscalculate, multiply metric x English like NASA and overdose their pond by a factor of a thousand.

But in the end many more fish are saved and live healthier lives because the owners are educated in what treatments are available and can apply them themselves.

Now applying this experience to herps- I agree encouraging vet care should be apart of the advice for any sick herp- but wouldn’t our forums be a better place if that was done politely and encouragingly, as a matter of leadership toward better care, with self-help options as well as outside treatment, especially without bullying?

In reality there are many animals out there in the same boat as the koi- for whatever reasons there is not going to be vet care for them (I think a frank discussion of what the real hurdles are, and how to overcome them, is a good one and deserves its own thread…another night) … and like for koi the more information and accessibility to treatment of the commonest and most easily treated illnesses the more herps will survive.

This is a matter both of information and developing techniques for administering medications. As with fish, for herps there really are a limited number of common maladies, shouldn’t we be able to diagnose and treat them ourselves if we want to? Most top koi sites sell antibiotic food pellets, for example…very easy to dose. I’ve considered the merits of putting a dosage of those pellets inside a f/t mouse, LOL!!! But I haven’t done so…

There will be “casualties” with self-treatment but in net, way more herps will live than are harmed…and As I pointed out, the reduction in disease transmittal would be enormous…

With my experience in koi-tending I find it frustrating that there isn’t more practical discussion about home treatment, not to lead people away form vet care, but to give everyone more options.

WHAT AN EXCELLENT POST! I 100% TOTALLY AGREE ,BUT THE INFO IS OUT THERE AS WELL DR.KLINGENBERGS(SPELLING) BOOK HAS GREAT DOSING INFO
,,,,,,,THOMAS

Herp vet help is much closer than fish help, but generally it is the same vets. If your herp vet is ACVM accredited then he/she will be somewhat more experienced in fish as well.

Any type of surgury is off limits for any animal keeper. Anesthetics are not prescription medications. They are for clinician use only.

I say this because there is no gradual range from experienced hobbyist to DVM. There is a big jump, and believe it or not, an inexperienced herp/fish vet that is humble, and uses his/her resources appropriately (like the veterinary information network) is much better suited to treat your exotic pets than any hobbyist. When it comes to taking chances, this is still the way to go. I also am worried about pain management and animal suffering as opposed to death, which is again, why I believe there is a definate line that should not be crossed, in which a vet visit is the ONLY option.

Reptiles (and fish) have amazing healing qualities and most problems will eventually heal themselves with minimal support as you have mentioned with your koi. The vet visits recommended in these cases will serve to quicken this process, and minimize pain and associated complications.

If the illness or injury has a poor to guarded prognosis and euthanasia is not desired then a vet visit is the only option.

I won't even get into legalities here, other than practicing veterinary medicine is illegal both in Canada and the USA. I don't think this is unreasonable and the grey area is small. Like you said, some parasite control, and very MINOR wounds are in this grey area if you have a relationship with a veterinarian. To suggest that the grey area is any larger is against the animal's best interests, and that is #1 in most people's books.

I just wanted to finish this lengthening post with the notion that herps rarely need a vet visit if husbandry and care are top notch. Most of my animals have never seen a vet, nor will they ever need to.