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Many people believe that hog island boas are hypos just in the sence of color not like a "co-dominant" morph type hypo.. I think that the hogs are hypos in the morph sence and work similar to the classic hypo gene you see around.

Here is why..

Hogs are obviously hypo looking. They don't look like a salmon or hypo in the classic sence but either does a hypo nic or a hypo sonoran. Actualy a hypo sonoran is almost identicle color wise to a hog. Just a different pattern due to their own evolution and locality.

Have you seen a cross? Not a hypo x hog cross but just one of the accidental type breedings. There are usualy at least half a litter that are hypo looking to a point.

hypo X hogs, they are quite nice looking. I have seen the litters that are produced with boas that should be "co-dominant" and they are getting 75% of the litters showing as hypos. This is the same ratio that an F1 hypo to F1 hypo breeding should get. Some of those hypo hogs that are sold are probably supers.

A friend of mine just produced the very first litter of 75% hog hypos.. They are very nice looking but lack reduced saddles like your classic 50% hypo hog. I am geussing this is due to the hog blood and their saddles being of a color other than black so there is nothing to reduce.

Sunsets, these have extremly reduced patterns because they are a 50/50 cross. The dominance in the classic hypo type reduces the black pigment that the boa would have in it's saddles from the colombian blood, and leaves only bits of hog color along with hypo color.

Central american hypo locality boas are not as "clean" as both types of classic hypo ( salmons and Gee line) many think this will change with selective breeding. But have you knoticed the closer you get to Colombia the better ( more like a classic hypo) the locality hypo's get? Look at a Sonoran, then Nicuraguan, and then a Panamainian Hypo.

I think all of these locality boas hypomelanisim works the same way to a point. Of course they all have their own local genes to add to the mix, but the actual hypo genes work the same way in my opinion. Hypo being a dominant trait has taken over many island populations with Cayos De los Cochinos being one of them. It also seems that the hypo population of each island can be dated by the amount of hypo to non hypo boas that are on it. It seems in these bottlenecked and isolated eco systems hypos take over, maybe that a is like window into the distant future of the mainland populations of boas..

Any thoughts to add to this?
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

and I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE HIS PICS!! I don't have any answers to your questions above, in fact, most of them I've pondered myself. Another thing I was wondering is....whether the Salmon hypo gene plays a part in pattern reduction in the offspring of this cross? I believe in his recent litter that hypo gene was from an orange tail??? We talked about so much stuff. I can't remember now.

All I really know is that I love looking at, and smooching my little ones.

Mz Peach, the Mom, is cavorting with a *maybe* Super Ghostling right now, so my fingers are crossed....of course I'm looking forward to doing a trade or two with him...I hope

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Linda Hedgpeth
lindafh@frontiernet.net
Sierra Serpents

"There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it".

It's not so much of a question, but an observation. I don't think the "classic" hypo gene can reduce anything on a pattern if theres no black in it.

Anyway, I'm just waiting to see his babies shed to get a better idea of whats going on..

good luck with mrs peach and the ghostling!
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

Maybe I worded it wrong. What I was referring to is how the Salmon hypo works when it is used to make Ghosts, for instance. The markings become smaller, extreme and distorted in some animals (which I think is waaay cool!). I have heard that the Orangetail hypo does not do it, either, at all - or to that extent.

Another analogy might be: Jeremy Stone bred his male Motley to a Salmon-hypo Motley female and the resulting hypo offspring had these really whacky patterns....very impressionistic and abstract . I don't know if they were all like this. The ones I saw, were. Maybe Jeremy will chime in here, if he's around Chris Nicholas' beautiful hypo Motley female is from an Orangetail-hypo and her pattern remained very symetrical and "Motleyish".

That's what I was wondering about. I think Kevin said his babies were from orangetail-hypo lineage. They had wide traditional markings. You can see on my Ghost x Hogs, how the patterns are distorted and minimalized on some of the babies. I have thought that might be from the Salmon-hypo influence.

But then.......I may be totally wrong.....
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Linda Hedgpeth
lindafh@frontiernet.net
Sierra Serpents

"There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it".

I will have to agree with you, at least till evidence proves otherwise. This girl is 50% hog. She will (if ready) be bred to a non hypo (of any type) this winter. When the babies are born it should shed more light on the theory.

I think Kevins are from an acual panimainian hypo x hog down the line.. but I am not positive on that they are F3's from D&M's line.

I think it's the hog that is making the pattern stay. The more hog blood the less the pattern is reduced. The reason why I think that is, is because hogs have evolved to have a pattern in a world of all hypos. Their pattern lacks black so how can hypomelanisim reduce it..

I follow you on the salmon line with the extra reduction of pattern and general aberrancy, I think that is just somthing inherent to that specific line.

Chris,
That is a great example of how hogs are hypomelanistic in the morph type sence. Nice looking too!

I think the hog island morphs will realy add somthing to a lot of projects down the line.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

Thanks, I like hat girl a lot. She has no Hypo blood in her from any line of hypomelanistic mutation. Just a Hog Isle mom.

Hypothetical: Breed that hog/col cross to a black argentine and I suspect it will yeild a varied litter of lighter 25% hog / 25% col / 50% argy .. breed them back to another argy and the offspring will continue darkening... do it again they will continue darkening .. etc (ie not even close to what happens with salmontines) Are hogs a dominant single gene hypo mutation that will continue throwing consistant 50/50 litters (50% obvious lighter 50% obvious not)? I seriously doubt it. Im fairly certain there have been F2 hog/col litters and if that were true, it surely would be widely reported that the hypo aspect of hogs is a single gene dominant mutation, as that would be big news.

What makes more sense to me is a polygenic trait. Like you would get from any locality cross-breeding.

I was thinking the same thing.
If the 'hypo'ness of the hogs was a legitimate dominant trait then how come there are not postings in the classifieds for hypo hogs and super hypo hogs? How come when you breed hog x hog you don't get half a hypo litter and half not? I would think because it's not a genetic trait in the way salmon is. I've heard people say all hogs are hypos? Is this guy a hypo? I wouldn't consider him a hypo because he is covered in black speckles even tho there is no black anywhere else in his coloration.

Let me clarify, whey I say hypo in reference to hog isle boas, I am not talking about just seeing the reduction in black which most hogs have but an actual dominant trait that removes all or the majority of black.

The one thing that makes me wonder on the whole thing was the fact that if you breed a hog to a hog there aren't 1/4 of a litters worth of normals (non hypos) Maybe they are just polygenicly hypo like a pastel.

April, your hog is hypomelanistic regardless of the speckles, I have seen stacks of classic hypos with tons more black than your hog.

New question..: So if some hogs were "classic hypos" along with being a polygenic hypo how would you tell?...LOL...
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

What if all of the hogs that are in captivity ( being pretty nice looking hogs) are super hypos.. Take a look at super hypo sonoran boas, they are identical to hogs almost..
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

That would be the likely scenario. As the original starting hogs on the island would have had to of been supers. Eventually creating an island of sole super hypos.

Which means hog x col would yeild all codominant hypo hog/col crosses. Breeding those F1's to another new (non-hog or hypo) bloodline would yeild distinct 50/50 (50% hypo , 50% normal) offspring.

I suspect this has been done and if it were true, it would be obvious that it is a single gene mutation. It would also be huge news to the community. Because of that I highly doubt it is a single gene mutation.

It all depends on the lenght of time the have been on the islands.. They all could be supers.. If they were breeding and living there long enough. Then you take them into captivity and the nicest ones get selectively bred, for better color, less speckles, and unknowingly all become supers..

Take a look at these super hypo sonorans here:
http://www.cuttingedgeherp.com/boaconstrictorimperator/item.nhtml?profile=boaconstrictorimperator&UID=105

Tell you what I have got 15 babies here that look identical.. and they are pure hogs.

The fact is, if a hog is bred to a normal you do get more hypomelanistic babies than if it were to just be normal x normal breeding. Now if these are bred together I bet you'd get "blonde hypos" or boas with classic hog colors. Probably the super form of this type of hypomelanism..
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

"It all depends on the lenght of time the have been on the islands.. They all could be supers.. If they were breeding and living there long enough."

If it is a single gene mutation, then they all would of had to of been supers. The reason being because all mutations are always 100% of the time detrimental in nature. There is not one instance where it is a benefit. If they were not all supers, the "regulars" produced would thrive and eventually the population of the mutants would die off.

"Take a look at these super hypo sonorans here:
http://www.cuttingedgeherp.com/boaconstrictorimperator/item.nhtml?profile=boaconstrictorimperator&UID=105

Tell you what I have got 15 babies here that look identical.. and they are pure hogs. "

The sonoran's are a proven single gene mutation. Hogs are a polygenic form of hypomelanism. Just because the hog locality looks like other forms of single gene mutation that doesnt mean they too are a single gene mutation.

"The fact is, if a hog is bred to a normal you do get more hypomelanistic babies than if it were to just be normal x normal breeding. Now if these are bred together I bet you'd get "blonde hypos" or boas with classic hog colors. Probably the super form of this type of hypomelanism.."

Yep, hog x colombian will yeild lighter than colombian offspring. This is because of the polygenic phenotype that the hypomelanistic hogs posses (as with any locality cross, the phenotypes mesh together).

Super form (single gene) hypomelanistic? I highly doubt it.

Hypos are not weak gened animals. It is obvious just by looking at other island local boas that are predominantly hypo. If it works on an island it will happen on the mainland at some point. If you put enough hypos in an area they are going to breed out the normals over a long enough time span. Hogs, and hypo may be pretty colors in captivity but thow one on the ground in some sandy leaf litter and they'd blend right in..

This is all speculation either way at this point, but a friend of mine here did just produce a full litter of 75% hog hypos (the first ones done) and the results point in my favor.. The blonde type hypo that hogs carry seems to be dominant to some extent.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

I only stated all mutations are detrimental versus the wild type. Never .. ever .. are they beneficial. This is common knowledge. Define "weak". Mutants weaker than wild type? Of course.

Wild Type vs. Mutant - Wild Type ALWAYS wins.

Therfore it is most likely that if (big if) indeed the hog island hypo phenotype is a single gene mutation they would all be supers originating from the island (no wild types to contend with).

Wild type... gets changed.. it's called evolution.. It happens, and those "mutants" take over. It only takes 1 mutated animal with better color or somthing that gives it an edge to start the change in a population.

Your post says you don't think hypos are a weak gene, yet you do nothing but spout off that wild type rules basicly...LOL... You are wrong.. maybe not about the hogs, I was speculating there and I am not 100% positive.. But your outlook on the whole thing is wrong...LOL... Morphs or "mutants pop up now and then for a reason,it may be a freak occurance, but an island coverd in a certain morph type says a lot if you ask me..
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

Ed, check out this female that i produced in 03, she is from a pair of hog islands i bought directly from Lloyd Lemke 10 yrs ago from his pure hog island boa group, i have had 5 litters and always get a really clean low speckled female (never a male)this is the best example, and i am really excited about what she will produce someday, she is recently getting alot of pink orange and is just awesome! this pic shows her next to a sibling male for comparison

heres another that has greatly reduced black, this is the best female from my 02 litter

that was an old pic of the 02 female, heres a more recent pic taken last winter

heres a w/c pair of mine, the male (in the foreground) has almost no speckles, and is mostly a pastel pink as a base body color that really doesnt show up well in this pic, my jaw dropped when i pulled him from the snake bag at the delta counter, he will be bred to one of my very clean female Lemke line hogs.

sorry for being a proud poppa...this pic shows 3 holdback females the largest is the 03 female i already showed the hi contrast one (upper middle)is from a separate line then the lemke line, but the upper left female (again always a female and always just one really nice one...interesting....any thoughts on that?)is from the lemke female's 04 litter. i need to take an individual pic but you can see she has very minimal speckling. i will say that i am not really into crossing these with mainlands ( i have had offers )i am interested in keeping them pure insulars but seeing what will come of future selective breeding. i still think a hog is nicest with some bold speckling and with currently 23 breeders or future breeders my efforts will be mainly to keeping naturally occuring forms.

Hey I can appriceate someone who is proud of their babies, and they all are smokin! Those WC hogs look like my F3 babies, wait untill they get some size to them those will be outstanding Blue phase hogs!
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

Ed, check out this male, at his lightest he is sky blue with pink highlights,plus a nice orange color to his tail, really awesome, had a few problems with him but it appears i have turned him around with some flagyl treatments as he is now putting on some weight