Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We all argue the merrits either way
but stop and think
a child who catches a snake, takes it home keeps it for a while then kills it from lack of knowledge
is he bad has he really hurt the snakes population as a whole ?
i will say that as a whole hands down he did not effect the populattion and he probably did a service to the reptile world.....! (and is guilty of nothing we all haven't done)
how you ask..ok ok lets start by saying any reptile dying is sad
but he in doing this has sparked a interest (probably a life long one at that) therefore he will learn and in turn educate others who have a different point of veiw.
i think many who post here have way to high of a opinion of them selves as i've hunted w/ a good many people and all i can say is for the most part people are lazy and search w/ no real facts
i've watched several guys walk past a snake inthe open,pass up tinn in briars look at tin thats way to hot on and on and on
yet post here that a givin reptile population is in dire straits
and no collecting should be done (do they have the real facts ? doubt it)
ok onto facts most snakes at any givin time are undergrond or hiddin in a unseen place. therefore 1 snake caught or molested does not represent a givin areas population by much. many more facts are needed i.e. total population,sex ratio,breeding output,food supply and area/range needed compared to avil land without these (which is for the most part impossible) you can not honestly or morally tell some one there doing something wrong!
case in point where i live they just cleared 80 acres for new homes (out of personal curiosity) i talked w/ the developer before the project got started myself and several buddys hunted the land catching a wide range of reptiles yet after everything was said and done the new homeowners and the developer still see snakes (lots of them) without the total facts this sounds amazing but for the rest.... the land sits near 2000 acres untouched and i'm sorry to say but humans help some (underline some) snakes as we produce better foraging grounds like congrgated toads,rats,mice,etc.after 1 year since clearing hunting the border ares of this land i find more snakes than before emmmmm is the poulation higher now ? no way to know could be the snakes from the 2000 acres are taken advantage of the new feeding grounds or could it be the strongest always find a way (through out history) i honestly can't say
there was also a 2 acre pond on the 80 acres i never saw more than 13 turtles sunning them selves at any givin time! was that all there was ? wow.... after they started filling the pond in i went collecting 173 turtles later we could find no more (granted alot where the unseen turtles snappers,mud,baby ones but still to the eye the pond was home to only 13

all i'm trying to say is know the whole story before slaming someone we all have a lot to learn!
shrinking land,prey item reductions, ignorant people, religious extremist (snakes are the sign of the devil-you know them) cars,roads among other things all have to be factered in

each must live to there own standards
do this and sleep well as the ones doing wrong will pay a price

food for thought
dirtydave

ps. i keep some of what i catch and many more are never bothered
yet i hold no ill will to those who do

..for a child to take a snake. BUT, the large scale commercial collecting(i.e., timber rattlesnakes, Grey banded kingsnakes,etc) does likely have an effect on populations.

In terms of developers, again, there is likely a major effect on snakes that are communal denners(again, timber rattlesnakes) and more so, turtles that don't necessarily move that fast(though they can cover quite a bit of ground in a days time) that are more likely to be at risk. Given that, still, with all the bickering about "Endangered Species" in many states, you surely don't see most Encon departements PUTTING A HALT to developers, because that would be political suicide. There are many armchair conservationists out there....just too few with any BA!!S to put their foot down.

Just curious but, how did gray banded kingsnakes make your list? Studies etc..
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Steve W.

Nah, just hearing stories from others who've gone down and hunted them, and mentioned the number of people they've encountered hunting them. Maybe its not as crowded now, nor it is probably any worse that the vehicles I've seen in Florida, collecting every snake they find(ribbon, water and every other colubrid that they can get $2 for).

I've never seen any studies done, specifically to determine the effects on grey band populations. It would be interesting though.

>>Nah, just hearing stories from others who've gone down and hunted them, and mentioned the number of people they've encountered hunting them.

Do a little looking-into the number of hunters who make the trip every year (sometimes several times a year!) vs. the number of snakes actually taken! Graybands are probably the most commercially-collected herp (as far as numbers of people hunting them) yet their populations seem to remain consistent (because they're so secretive, few are collected at any one time).
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Are there any statistics on the number of gray-bands collected? I don't know the bag limit off the top of my head.

How does it compare now, to say 10-15 years ago?

The reason Texas Parks and Wildlife delisted the Gray-banded Kingsnake in 1987 was that it occurs (in the US) in an area about the size of South Carolina. This area is almost entirely private land and the areas that aren't private land are protected so there is no land on which "the public" can hunt these snakes other than roads and roadsides.

However, in that area there are very few roads, and most of those roads don't go through the correct habitat so there are only a few areas that people hunt.

Most alterna are collected from about 50 miles of road in that thousands of square miles. And even in those areas where they are "common", few people find more than 1 or 2 in a given year of collecting and that usually takes them 10 nights of 8 hours of hunting. Based on that information, it became evident that collectors were not going to be able to make any sort of significant impact on the wild population of alterna.

Some sleazy hunters do, however, collect other incidental species while hunting alterna to try and pay for their trips. You can see this by watching the number of things like Trans-pecos Rats, Mottled Rock Rattlesnakes, Trans-pecos Copperheads, Bullsnakes, etc. that show up on pricelists in May/June. The people that do this are a-holes, but most collectors don't take anything other than the occasional alterna.

These incidental takes might have more impact because they are more common and therefore taken more often, but still the area available to collectors is just the tip of the iceberg of the species range. Also, road hunting and checking cuts is a relatively habitat friendly way of herping, when compared to flipping rocks, stripping bark, setting out trash, etc.

I am a huge opponent of commercial collection, but I have witnessed and been involved in alterna hunting and see that it isn't going to impact the populations of these snakes significantly (clearly this type of collection is a sustainable yield).
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Chris Harrison

in a person that collects 12 or more altena than one that collects everything. ( Yep, probably will get arguments here directed at me but I don't care ). I mean what is the ultimate goal of collecting lots of alterna ? From most people that i know , same goal as to make monies and ultimately justifying lots of trips down to west Texas ( apply this to other regions of specific herps as well ). We all know of a person that has collected over 40 alterna all wild caught in X amount of years. He keeps collecting them even now ! WHY ? While he is a friend of mine, I don't just understand the validity of him justifying his continued efforts to collect wild alterna ESPECIALLY when he does not breed a lot of his formal wild caught for what ever reason nor gets the market price due to the ever popular spiraling prices that alterna went through some years ago. I've even directed this thought to him with him not really given a valid answer other than maybe " I just like them " ? Or " I just like the challenge " ? Or " I just LOVE west Texas, Gods place/country " ? Believe me, if you all know who or whom I'm thinking about, I mean not to CHASTISE anybody . Also , as much as a very BIG controversy and maybe illegal practice, what DOES people do with an access of like the alterna if they can't sell them or won't take a certain low price like > " I won't give them away " !> ? I wonder, going with this line of thought, if they release them in the wild ? There has been a few rumors around to this effect.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

land, in relation to say, Arizona, so I could how the collecting is somewhat limited.

What I'm wondering, is how do you quantify the total numbers of greybanded kingsnakes? I see too many biologists trying to take the arm chair approach of saying everything is declining, due to collecing, when in reality, they don't have a clue. Its all to easy to blanket protect things, based on scant, shoddy data. What we are seeing in NY is that some species, thought to be rare, may in fact be more common BUT only a few biologists actually get out to study the species and even then, they do so, in areas where the species are already known to occur!!! Thats great, if you just want to slap together a paper on some study(that in all likelihood, is too short to tell you anything anyway). Very few people get out and look in habitat that COULD be ideal for habitat, to see if there are more animals than we realize.

IF there were ANY species that were being hit hard from collecting, alterna would be one of the species that would be good to study. Probably Eastern diamondbacks, red pygmy rattlers and a maybe Florida kings as well.

Consider this for an example although way skewed... 32 hours of hunting garnered 1 suboc, 1 lepidus, and 4 G.B.'s on my first and only trip. But it cost me 11 days of driving, 5 nights of hotel/meals and the gas bill....let's just say it wasn't worth it for profit....likened to a big money big game hunt with no guarantee...I gave all my animals to the local zoo, but would have kept a G.B. or Bairdi's if found...I went for the experience alone and will again. It is an astounding amount of habitat that is unhuntable and I personally believe that most of the snakes reside in the boulder fields above the fence line and are unreachable until they expand their territory. Just an educated guess but of the 4 alterna found 2 juvies were 30' above the road and going up, 1 adult was 3' off the ground resting, and 1 subadult was 4-5' off the ground going up. Granted, this was an unusual # of G.B.'s found in a 24 hour period, but I believe I heard of someone finding 8 in a 48 hour period recently? Also heard of 5 other alternas found at the time of our trip, actually saw 3 of them and have no reason to disbelieve the other party's report.
Add them #'s to the rest. I must also say that without the info garnered from the Alterna page, none of this would have ever happened...I just think most herpers can't really afford to hunt them....It's a Texas safari...suboc, bairdi, splendida, annulata/celaenops, alterna, and lepidus!
Todd Hughes
P.S. I flipped a Hypsiglena!!! Yeah!!!LOL!

I have been going down to TX for 2-3 weeks every year for 9 years. These trips cost me about $900 to $1200 each and I have seen 12 alterna, including the ones found by a partner when I was travelling with one. As another poster said you cannot impact the population because these animals are taken only from the roads which are surrounded by vast areas of alterna habitat. Compare these numbers to zonata a species with an even lower reproductive output (at least in captivity) and I have seen about 30 so far this year alone. This is because zonata can be found under rocks while alterna can't.
Texas Department of Parks and Wildlife does take numbers on alterna from those who buy commercial collecting permits. The numbers taken were so low compared to the numbers produced in captivity and the estimated wild population that TXP&W no longer requires a permit to sell captive born offspring. At least this was the case last year when I asked TDP&W if I need a permit to sell my captive born alterna when I was in TX.

My opinion;

We should first pass the herp version of the Fedral Migratory Bird Act. This protects all birds other than game birds - period. The herp version would protect all herps - period.

Then we would issue licenses for the collection of non- thtreatened species if the sale of the licenses was sufficient to pay for population surveys and monitoring, habitat improvement, etc - the same sort of attention paid for by hunting/fishing licenses.

If the money raised from herp collecting licenses wasn't sufficient to pay for population monitoring, the herps would remain protected - period.

The question is whether you think herps are more like "game" and therefore harvestable, or more like song birds, and therefore protected. But even if you believe they are game, they should never be collected unless somebody (the collector) is willing to pay to have the long term health of the population monitored.

Thats my opinion...

It depends on the species.

Some regulation as to the number of wild-caught in a person's collection should be enacted.

Common stuff such as plains garters don't need a great deal of protection but something like and eastern indigo does.

Habitat destruction is far more detrimental to snake populations than collection. It comes down to this, 0 recruitment = population declines, breeding habitat must therefore be the top priority when considering protection for any given species herp or otherwise.

For the record i've killed four snakes, they all became sick at the same time, due to collection for my own enjoyment. I like to think that i've learned from this. With the people that i talk to in the field i believe i've perhaps saved a few dozen individual snakes.

one snake here one snake there be for for you know it no snakes any where

in till we know how many herps are realy there i think it would be best to just take a pic, or buy it form a breeder if you most have it not take it from the wild

you think it's only one snake but the next person will think it's only one but now it's really two, soon to be three,then four;and so on maybe it will not do anything until the number gets to 100 but no one really knows how many. the idea with what they did with the birds i like but it will only work if everyone who collects gets the permit. if there is not a permit then poeple will still take herps it would just be illegal.

..and a limit on the number of wetlands that can be paved over for one more strip mall. Just how many Wal-marts do we really need?

In addition to wetlands; prairies, limestone formations, deserts, etc must be protected.

Collection does not have a huge effect on a given organism's abundance given that an organism has good recruitment rates. An animal with low recruitment-such as an Eastern Diamondback or a wandering albatross should be left alone simply because there are too few young to replace collection. Enviromental conditions are far more likely to determine abundance of a given species.

Really conservation starts with education, before it starts with anything else.

same as w/ say deer hunting.

the prob will still be there
game and fish will say they can't afford to check everyone
i've said in fla. they should allow anyone to sell to pet stores
if they did that req. a drivers licence and a minimum set fee for permit they must sign (collected by the store) we will now know who abuses the system as game and fish will have there name number and a right to serch if they signed the permit to sell.

as for impacts again i've said for a long time
micro chip wild reptiles
then its a matter of going to wholesalers and scaning
you will have the numbers (basic) to prove or dis prove your position.

fla kings ?
there are so many around lake ocechobee they like damn yellow flys (this area is 95% private property)i once found 47 in 1 day 46 were males several weeks later i found 33 29 were female ????
what the heck does that mean (also i rarly ever see other species in that area accept in the trees is it from overpopulation ? what happens when the food supplys gone (there are less sugar cane feilds evry year (that means less and less rats)

finally---if we all stood back and allowed snakes to grow to unchecked numbers (again most not all species) since we have aradicated most predetors lizards,frogs,etc would drop in numbers or be wiped out totally
claiming you only take one so your not as bad as someone who takes 5 what kind of sence is that ? even if you keep yours and they sell theres its all basically the same thing we have no right to judge by are own standards there has to be a law to base opinion on

lets do this put 2 anti collecters ,2 pro collectors and a game and fish biologist in a room and until they come up with a fare even handed law they will have to stay there
come on it not that hard
lets solve this and move foward

also imagine today pre 1950'S populations on the indigo
several species would be gone tommorrow!
i caught a indigo last year to photo moved him 75 feet for a better pic. opritunity he threw up 3 cornsnakes and 2 water snakes (and yes i felt bad)
so even moving slightly has effects (like moving of the road)
and can i remind everyone you can't touch a gopher tortoise from the road without facing jail and fine (even if its going save it life)--what kind of law is that?

good night all
dream reptiles............................

Actually Fla has in place a requirement for anyone wishing to sell reptiles to first obtain a permit. Pet Stores are required to list the name and permit number of the person selling to them. Having once owned a pet store there I know Fla Wildlife Officers WILL come in and request to see invoices on every native animal you have in the store. This dosen't happen very often but I've been visited by them at least once a year.
As to bag limits, it's hard to say that would help. I know of areas in So. Fla that have been "commercially" collected for over 40 years and the same area will produce 8 or 10 corn snakes on a good night just road hunting. Same goes for the Fla King around the lake. On the right day, you can walk particular canal banks and see up to 40 kings. And those are canals safe from being arrested for tresspassing. God knows the numbers you would see if you had the nads to risk arrest for a common Lampropeltis. The same goes for the Okeetee area in SC. We all know that area has been collected since the days of Ditmars, yet you can still go there in the spring and find corns, kings, canebrakes, copperheads and diamondbacks. I feel these areas still produce large numbers of animals because they all have one thing in common, plenty of food and cover. So if you really want to "PROTECT" the animals we all love to enjoy, make noise to your local congressional district about overdevelopment and habitat destruction. Also the use of pesticides and herbicides in areas known to hold small animals such as reptiles and especially amphibians.
That's my 2 cents worth.
Happy Hunting All
Bob