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A sad day........Caution very graphic pitures.....Long......

drimes Jun 06, 2005 06:48 PM

There are some very graphic pictures at the end of this post, so if you have a weak stomach … go back now.

Yesterday our 2 year old DH Sunglow died. We knew she was having some health issues but this was totally unexpected. Until a couple weeks ago she has always been the picture of health, but it appears now she had been sick for quite some time. I am posting this here to be educational and informative, and to illustrate how little we know or can do sometimes.

A couple of weeks ago we got what I thought was a very odd looking stool out of Gloria. I now believe it to be a regurge. It was grayish-pink and about the consistency of wet paper pulp, full of hair and not much odor. It was about a week and a half since her last meal. I didn’t think too much of this, sometimes you just find something weird, but it really isn’t anything to be concerned about. A couple of days later more of the same grayish matter was found in her cage.
A few more days pass and she refuses her meal. This is the first time she has ever done this in the two years we have had her. I am now becoming concerned that something really might be going on with her. We decide to tube a dose of Flagyl into her and see if this will help with whatever her digestive issue is. After we have tubed her, we discover that she has a small area about ¾ of the way down her body on her belly that is kinked and flat, and obviously painful to her. It looks like she has been crushed.
We make our fist trip to the vet the next day. The vet seems to think it is some kind of trauma (she has been squashed or injured herself in some way) his X-ray equipment is broken, so I leave with no real answers. I spend the next couple of days questioning how she might have hurt her herself, alone in a Rubbermaid tub, and cannot come up with any answers.
Feeding day comes again and she takes a small mouse (a very small meal for her) with gusto. I think great! Then two days later I find it regurged in her cage. Crap!!! Now I am really starting to worry. I call the vet again and make an appointment for some X-rays to be taken on Saturday. If she is broken, like we all seemed to think, I want to know the extent of the damage.
The X-rays show that she is not broken in any way. They do show some fecal matter right in the area that she is having problems. The vet decides to tube some laxative into her to relieve this “possible blockage”. We get home and she regurges everything that has been tubed into her. She pukes again three more times on Saturday. I’m thinking “Crap, this is getting really serious.” I decide to call the vet again first thing Monday.

Sunday afternoon Gloria died.

The vet came by today and did a necropsy. He took tissue samples to send away for a pathology report. But his initial feeling is cancer. As you can see from the pictures Gloria’s entire liver is covered with growths. Her lower gut was hard and calcified and the vet thought it was a miracle that she hadn’t regurged before. Her one kidney was normal but the other was also covered with growths. (he removed half of it for the pathology sample).

Like I said at the beginning of this post, until a couple weeks ago Gloria appeared to be the picture of health. Great appetite, good growth, excellent looking snake. It just shows how little we really know because this problem has been developing for quite some time.

The flat spot on her stomach we thought was a crush injury, we now know to be a very painful kidney.

Her lower stomach with calcification

Liver, completly covered with growths

Healthy Kidney next to bad one

Gloria how I want to remember her!!

Kathy & Denny

Replies (28)

sojourner Jun 06, 2005 07:17 PM

Thanks so much for sharing. I hope the pathology reports help to determine what was the cause. Gloria was a beautiful hypo!

Jesse
-----
"Continuing to cling to the patterns you know, inhibits your ability to discover what you don't know." - Eric Allenbaugh

Trueredtails Jun 06, 2005 07:20 PM

I'm really sorry for your loss. It really suck when things that you cannot control happen. You did the right thing by seeking a vet but even if you caught it earlier there probably was nothing that could be done to save her. She was a great looking boa. Sorry for your loss.

-Dylan Keays
-----
True Redtails

bthacker Jun 06, 2005 07:44 PM

I appreciate you posting the pics and the lenghty post. I recently had a large female Suriname pass and I am wishing I would have had a necropsy performed rather than speculate what went wrong. I possibly could have helped some folks out in the future.

Again sorry to hear of your guys' loss.

Take care-

Brett

King_Serpentine Jun 06, 2005 07:49 PM

This is very sad. I had a Ball Python that died due to liver failure. She was a very gorgeous animal, like yours. sorry for the loss. But you know her life wasnt in vain, and you enjoyed two good years with her

cnb2 Jun 06, 2005 08:13 PM

Its sad to lose a pet. She was beautiful and it sounds like she had a good two years with you.
Chuck

willykink Jun 06, 2005 08:26 PM

...
-----
Brad Hamlin
"...when im a good snake, they sometimes throw me a rat..."
B&P Constrictors

gray Jun 06, 2005 08:33 PM

nm

Amanda_Burke Jun 06, 2005 08:49 PM

sharing that information with the forum so that hopefully we can all learn from it. She was a beautiful boa!
Take care,
Amanda
-----
Amanda Burke
Email
Burke Reptiles Website

johnmartino Jun 06, 2005 09:27 PM

NP

PGoss Jun 06, 2005 09:44 PM

np

Dove_3 Jun 06, 2005 10:25 PM

I'm so sorry this happened Kathy and Denny, but I want to thank you for posting the pics so we all can learn from this death.

robertmcphee Jun 06, 2005 10:45 PM

np

Hypoboa1 Jun 06, 2005 11:23 PM

>>There are some very graphic pictures at the end of this post, so if you have a weak stomach … go back now.
>>
>>Yesterday our 2 year old DH Sunglow died. We knew she was having some health issues but this was totally unexpected. Until a couple weeks ago she has always been the picture of health, but it appears now she had been sick for quite some time. I am posting this here to be educational and informative, and to illustrate how little we know or can do sometimes.
>>
>>A couple of weeks ago we got what I thought was a very odd looking stool out of Gloria. I now believe it to be a regurge. It was grayish-pink and about the consistency of wet paper pulp, full of hair and not much odor. It was about a week and a half since her last meal. I didn’t think too much of this, sometimes you just find something weird, but it really isn’t anything to be concerned about. A couple of days later more of the same grayish matter was found in her cage.
>>A few more days pass and she refuses her meal. This is the first time she has ever done this in the two years we have had her. I am now becoming concerned that something really might be going on with her. We decide to tube a dose of Flagyl into her and see if this will help with whatever her digestive issue is. After we have tubed her, we discover that she has a small area about ¾ of the way down her body on her belly that is kinked and flat, and obviously painful to her. It looks like she has been crushed.
>>We make our fist trip to the vet the next day. The vet seems to think it is some kind of trauma (she has been squashed or injured herself in some way) his X-ray equipment is broken, so I leave with no real answers. I spend the next couple of days questioning how she might have hurt her herself, alone in a Rubbermaid tub, and cannot come up with any answers.
>>Feeding day comes again and she takes a small mouse (a very small meal for her) with gusto. I think great! Then two days later I find it regurged in her cage. Crap!!! Now I am really starting to worry. I call the vet again and make an appointment for some X-rays to be taken on Saturday. If she is broken, like we all seemed to think, I want to know the extent of the damage.
>>The X-rays show that she is not broken in any way. They do show some fecal matter right in the area that she is having problems. The vet decides to tube some laxative into her to relieve this “possible blockage”. We get home and she regurges everything that has been tubed into her. She pukes again three more times on Saturday. I’m thinking “Crap, this is getting really serious.” I decide to call the vet again first thing Monday.
>>
>>Sunday afternoon Gloria died.
>>
>>The vet came by today and did a necropsy. He took tissue samples to send away for a pathology report. But his initial feeling is cancer. As you can see from the pictures Gloria’s entire liver is covered with growths. Her lower gut was hard and calcified and the vet thought it was a miracle that she hadn’t regurged before. Her one kidney was normal but the other was also covered with growths. (he removed half of it for the pathology sample).
>>
>>Like I said at the beginning of this post, until a couple weeks ago Gloria appeared to be the picture of health. Great appetite, good growth, excellent looking snake. It just shows how little we really know because this problem has been developing for quite some time.
>>
>>
>>The flat spot on her stomach we thought was a crush injury, we now know to be a very painful kidney.
>>
>>Her lower stomach with calcification
>>
>>Liver, completly covered with growths
>>
>>Healthy Kidney next to bad one
>>
>>
>>Gloria how I want to remember her!!
>>
>>
>>Kathy & Denny
-----
E&C's Exotic House of Reptiles

greenman38 Jun 06, 2005 11:38 PM

What a drag So sorry for your loss, she was such a pretty girl. Guess it goes to show you never know whats next with any of your animals. So sorry for your loss... jody

lateralis Jun 07, 2005 12:50 AM

Terribly sorry to hear of your loss!! that is so upsetting and plain screwed my heart goes out to you.
Please post your vets findings if you could, it may hold insight into this tragedy.
Some questions: What was your primary water supply source?
Did you raise your own rodents or buy f/t from a supplier?
Have you lived in the same house the entire life of the snake?
Just curious to see.
Sorry once again for your loss...
Brett

Southernboids Jun 07, 2005 06:55 AM

She was a beauty and all I can say is she was destined to not make it. I have seen your setups and I know that your animals are in the lap of luxury at your place. We had a similar situation with out Hogg a few months back and it is hard to get over, and even more confusing.

-----
Thanks
Shawn Morelan
www.Southernboids.com

drimes Jun 07, 2005 06:59 AM

I will post the results from the pathology report when we get them, it should be about a week.
Brett as far as your questions... Our water supply has been from the tap, and from bottled. We switched to bottled water after discovering that the county water has more chlorine in it than our pool normally does.(aging it does not help, it still tests the same three days later)
Rats are F/T and have been purchased from a couple of different sources over the last couple of years.
We had Gloria since she was a baby and lived in the same location. We purchased her directly from the breeder so this was only her second home.
Just a quick note.. our vet is not a real fan of albinos, he believes them to be weaker and much more suseptable to diseases...not that there aren't healthy ones out there. An analogy he has use is....if they were a group of school kids the albino would be the one that caught every cold and runny nose that came through the school.... He was talking about albinos in general, birds, snakes, lizards, not just boas. And he did speculate that because she was a het that her immune system could have been weaker to begin with.....I'm not sure if I agree with him or not. I suppose over the next twenty years, raising some of our albinos and hets, I will find out.

Take care,
Kathy & Denny

lateralis Jun 07, 2005 11:04 PM

Are chloramines safe?
Here is some info on the process of chloramination, a process that is used to treat our drinking water. I learned about this 10 years ago when I began my research in aquaponics, I stopped giving tap water to all my animals soon after, though it is touted as "safe", I dont drink it. Ammonia, even in small amounts, cannot be good for the kidneys or liver, which is what it affects the worst.

Yes. Chloramines have been used safely in the U. S. and Canada for many years. EPA accepts chloramines as a disinfectant and as a way to avoid THM formation. Were it not for some kind of disinfectant in drinking water, disease-causing organisms such as typhoid and cholera could be carried in your drinking water. Chloraminated water is safe for bathing, drinking, cooking and all uses we have for water every day. However, there are two groups of people who need to take special care with chloraminated water: kidney dialysis patients and fish owners.
Why do kidney dialysis patients have to take special precautions?

In the dialysis process, water comes in contact with the blood across a permeable membrane. Chloramines in that water would be toxic, just as chlorine is toxic, and must be removed from water used in kidney dialysis machines. There are two ways to do that - either by adding ascorbic acid or using granular activated carbon treatment. Medical centers that perform dialysis are responsible for purifying the water that enters the dialysis machines.
Do medical centers, hospitals, and clinics that perform kidney dialysis know about the change to chloramines?

Yes. All medical facilities have been notified of the change. All dialysis systems already pretreat their source water: many will have to modify their equipment before January, 1997. If you have any doubt, please ask your physician.
What should people with home dialysis machines do to remove chloramines?

You should first check with your physician who will probably recommend the appropriate type of water treatment. Often, home dialysis service companies can make the needed modifications, but you should check with your physician to be certain.
If chloramines are toxic, won’t they harm people and pets?

Chloramines are harmful when they go directly into the bloodstream, as happens in kidney dialysis. Fish also take chloramines directly into their bloodstreams. That’s why chloramines must be removed from water that goes into kidney dialysis machines or is used in fish tanks and ponds.
If chloramines shouldn’t mix with blood, is it safe to drink water containing them?

Yes. Everyone can drink water that’s chloraminated because the digestive process neutralizes the chloramines before they reach the bloodstream. Even kidney dialysis patients can drink, cook and bathe in chloraminated water. It’s only when water interacts directly with the bloodstream - as in dialysis or in a fish’s gill structure - that chloramines must be removed.
How about washing an open wound, such as a cut, with chloraminated water?

Certainly. Even large amounts of water used in cleaning a cut would have no effect because virtually no water actually enters the bloodstream that way.
Can people with kidney ailments, on low-sodium diets, or with diabetes use chloraminated water?

Yes. People with those medical problems can use chloraminated water for all purposes.
If chloramines are harmful to fish, how can people safely drink the water?

Chloraminated water is no different than chlorinated water for all of the normal uses we have for water. Water that contains chloramines is totally safe to drink. The digestive process neutralizes the chloramines before they reach the blood stream. Even kidney patients can drink and bathe in chloraminated water.
Can pregnant women and children drink chloraminated water?

Yes. Everyone can drink water that contains chloramines.
What about people who are sensitive to chemicals?

The amount of chloramines will be extremely small - no more than 2 parts per million parts of water. If you are concerned that even this low concentration might cause problems for you, check with your physician. The predominant type of chloramines will be monochloramine NH2Cl) and will be in the ratio of 5 parts chlorine to one part ammonia-nitrogen.
Will chloramines change the pH of the water?

No. The pH of the water will remain the same as before.
What will water taste like with chloramines?

If you notice any change at all, you may find the water has less of a chlorine odor or taste.
Do home water softeners remove chloramines?

Most water softeners are not designed to remove chloramines.
Does bottled water have chloramines?

It could. If the bottled water company uses water supplied by a water district that uses chloramines, then the water it provides will have chloramines in it, unless the company takes special steps to remove them.
Will chloramines affect swimming pools?

No. You will still need a free-chlorine residual to retard algae and bacteria growth. The chlorine chemicals and test kits you currently use can still be used with confidence. Contact your local pool supply store for any specific questions.
How about using chloraminated water on ornamental plants, vegetables or fruit and nut trees? Will beneficial soil bacteria be harmed?

The small amount of chloramines should have no effect on plants of any type. Beneficial bacteria will generally be protected by the soil in which they live. Chloramines will be removed by the high chlorine demand in the soil.
How do chloramines affect fish?

Chloramines are toxic to fish and must be removed from water, just as chlorine is toxic and must be removed. You may not have had to remove chlorine from your aquarium water, however, because it disappears rapidly on its own. This is not the case with chloramines and steps should be taken to remove chloramines. Most pet stores have sold dechlorinating agents for years and, generally, have recommended using them. The chemicals used to remove chlorine should work just as well for chloramines. Several manufacturers have been adding chloramine information on labels on their products for years.
Won’t letting water sit for a few days remove chloramines from tank or pond water?

No. Unlike chlorine, which dissipates when water sits for a few days, chloramines may take weeks to disappear. If you don’t want to use a dechloraminating chemical, the next best solution is to install a granular activated filter and allow sufficient contact time.
If only a small amount of water is added to an aquarium or pond to make up for evaporative loss, do chloramines still have to be remove?

This will depend on the amount of water added in relation to the size of the aquarium or pond and the time period over which it’s added. An alternative is to monitor for a total chlorine residual in the aquarium or pond while adding the chloraminated water. Chloramine residuals in water used to keep fish should be kept below 0.1 mg/L. Total chlorine test kits are available from pet stores, pool supply stores and chemical supply houses.
Are both salt and fresh water fish affected by chloramines?

Chloramines will have to be removed if the water used to make salt water solution comes from a chloraminated supply. Chloramines affect salt water fish just as they effect fresh water fish.
Can Koi assimilate chloramines unlike other fish?

No. Koi are just as susceptible to chloramines as any other fish.
Will a carbon filter remove chloramines?

Yes. However, it must contain high quality granular activated carbon and you must permit sufficient contact time.
Will reverse osmosis remove chloramines?

No. Salts can be caught by the permeable membranes but chloramines pass through easily.
Will chloramines be removed by boiling the water?

No. Boiling is not an effective method of removing chloramines from water. The only practical methods for removing chloramines from water are using a water conditioner which contains a dechlorination chemical or by using granular activated carbon.
How much of a dechloraminating agent or what type of granular activated filter should be used?

Ask your pet supplier or read the instructions on the container or equipment.
What are the effects of ammonia on fish?

Ammonia can be toxic to fish, although all fish produce some ammonia as a natural byproduct. Ammonia is also released when chloramines are chemically removed. Although ammonia levels may be tolerable in individual tanks or ponds, commercial products are available at pet supply stores to remove excess ammonia. Also, biological filters, natural zeolites and pH control methods are effective in reducing the toxic effects of ammonia.
Mosquito control agencies sometimes use fish to eat mosquito larvae. Will these fish be affected?

They would be affected if the water in the channels or ponds is chloraminated. Most water that runs into channels, however, would be agricultural, landscaping or storm water drainage. After water has been used for one purpose, it probably would not have enough residual chloramines to affect the fish.
Will chloraminated water used for agricultural purposes have any effect on fish in adjacent streams?

Most water which runs into streams and ponds would be agricultural, landscaping or storm water drainage. After water has been used for one purpose, it probably would not have enough residual chloramine to affect fish.

Dove_3 Jun 07, 2005 11:30 PM

I love in the country with a well....

lateralis Jun 08, 2005 01:56 PM

Hard to tell, you should have a sample tested by the water company. I can tell you that here in CA, there is a problem with toxins from military bases getting into the groundwater supply (wells) as far as 50 miles from the bases and farther I believe. The origins for these toxins go as far back as WWII, when burying things to get rid of them was popular.

drimes Jun 08, 2005 06:40 AM

We switched the water supply for our boas several months ago to bottled water, that we tested for chlorine (chloramine) level. There have been no obvious physical or behavioral changes in any of our animals, however we still feel somewhat better about giving it to them given boas sensitivity to environmental conditions.

In the case of Gloria, I believe that either she had a genetic susceptibility to health issues or it was just plain bad luck. We keep our collection of around 50 boas in exactly the same conditions and so far, Gloria is the ONLY one to die. This is not to say that there may not be others, time will tell on that issue.

You appear to have done extensive research regarding water quality and I thank you for it. I may copy and save the text from your post as reference material. I appreciate your thoughts and especially your comments regarding Gloria. The pathology report should be back in a couple weeks, so I will report the findings, which I suspect cannot be linked to water supply but like I said, we have switched water supplies anyway just err on the side of caution.

Denny Rimes

bcijoe Jun 07, 2005 08:25 AM

.
-----
Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

tcdrover Jun 07, 2005 09:40 AM

--

LindaH Jun 07, 2005 10:19 AM

help someone else down the road. Was the answer regarding her death somthing specific or a combination of things....cancerous growths, kidney infection > failure and whatever was going on with the stomach. It would seem that way to me.

She was certainly a pretty girl and I KNOW she was well loved in her short life. Kathy, if I ever come back as a boa, I want you to be my Boa-Mom.
-----
Linda Hedgpeth
lindafh@frontiernet.net
Sierra Serpents

"There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it".

AbsoluteApril Jun 07, 2005 11:14 AM

thank you for sharing the info with the rest of the forum.
It sounds like she had 2 great years with you of being very
well cared for.
-april

michaelburton Jun 07, 2005 04:15 PM

nc

tcarter Jun 07, 2005 05:36 PM

I extend my sympathy to you on your loss. It must be very difficult to reconcile a death like this when you do everything you can to take care of your animal friends. It wasn't your fault my friend, and I hope that with time you will find solace and comfort knowing that your friend no longer suffers. Good luck.

JeffGray Jun 07, 2005 05:46 PM

That is so sad, I feel for you. She was a beautiful snake.

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