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i have one ribbon snake and i was wondering if i could put another reptile in there with with

i have a 20 gallon tank

I don't think you can.

If it was a tad bigger you could put another ribbon in there.
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You are ALWAYS best off keeping your snakes in a cage by themselves. Lots of reasons to give each one its own tank...Virtually no good reasons to have them cohabitating, except for breeding time. Duffy

>>You are ALWAYS best off keeping your snakes in a cage by themselves. Lots of reasons to give each one its own tank...Virtually no good reasons to have them cohabitating, except for breeding time. Duffy

Actually, garters and ribbons are the closest thing to "social" snakes, except perhaps rattlesnakes. They can and do get along if kept together, and while you do have to watch them at mealtimes, an aggressive feeder can actually stimulate a reluctant feeder to eat.

They often appear more "content" when kept with a cagemate, and they will often curl up together, even when they don't "have to" due to environmental conditions. I've also seen evidence that it reduces the "pacing" behavior of some garters - constantly cruising the perimeters of the cage, and crawling up corners, trying to escape.

There are definite pluses to keeping a pair or trio of garters together (even if you are not breeding - ie. even all females or males).

Several other lists I am on have many members who have found the same to be true. It does however make care and upkeep even more important, and so may not be for the beginner keeper.

If the tank in the original post is a 20 long - that would be fine for a pair of ribbons. A 20 or 20 high, doesn't really give enough floorspace for a ribbon, much less a pair.

Lisa
Living Earth Environmental Education
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Lisa
Living Earth Environmental Education
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There is clearly a fair amount of debate on this issue, with some folks thinking that they "like" each other. Others feel that they are going with instinct and environment and our need to assign "feelings" to our reptiles cause us to anthropomorphize them (sp?).

Even if some of your thoughts on this matter are true, I am of the opinion that the disadvantages will always outweigh any possible advantages. Can it be done? Of course it can. Should it be done????????

I strongly agree with your statement that keeping snakes together is best left to the experienced herper. Most people don't recognize signs of stress (or at least don't DO anything about it) until the snake is puking up its meals.

>>There is clearly a fair amount of debate on this issue, with some folks thinking that they "like" each other. Others feel that they are going with instinct and environment and our need to assign "feelings" to our reptiles cause us to anthropomorphize them (sp?).
>>
>>Even if some of your thoughts on this matter are true, I am of the opinion that the disadvantages will always outweigh any possible advantages. Can it be done? Of course it can. Should it be done????????
>>
>>I strongly agree with your statement that keeping snakes together is best left to the experienced herper. Most people don't recognize signs of stress (or at least don't DO anything about it) until the snake is puking up its meals.

To each their own. But actually there is much evidence now surfacing about the social lives of snakes....... did you see the recent article about the social lives of rattlesnakes? And rattlesnake maternal care - probably more correctly termed "maternal protection" or "maternal oversight"? These animals are much more complex than we thought, and if you look at the complexities of denning behavior in gartersnakes, there must be a social aspect to their behavior, even if it is at the instinctual level.

Seeing masses of wild garters or watersnakes or rattlers, grouped together and basking in branches or on rocks, when conditions are such that they could "get what they need" by basking singly, on branches or rocks, indicates to me that they "get" something from being social, and it need not be anthropomorphizing - it can be at an instinctual level - after all, honeybees and ants are extremely social...... Science seems to be finding that the deeper they look into the lives of snakes, things that people for years thought were completely impossible, are now, possible.

And I think there are distinct "advantages" to letting some of the more social species, like garters have a cagemate. Especially if one cagemate needs the "stimulation" of watching a cagemate eat. However, I do not recommend a person new to the hobby do this, because it requires that one watches even more closely, to make sure that everything is going smoothly. YMMV.

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Lisa
Living Earth Environmental Education
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Interesting points. Well thought out and researched. There does seem to be "something" in the middle-ground between the "They're only competing for the best spot" theory and the "Golly they really LIKE each other" theory that is worth considering. I have sort of taken an instictual theory that goes something like: "If these other snakes are already here...It must be a good spot" Of course, our snakes don't really think or reason that, but I suspect that generations of instinct have "told" them that those "other" snakes would not be there if it was a crappy location.

I will admit that I tend to adopt a somewhat simplistic approach when I answer the "cohabitation" question. I probably do so due to the fact that so many people who ask it ARE still grappling with the basics, and I usually feel that they need to leave that issue for later. I will also admit that I house two if my 13 snakes together...A duo of female corns.

Thanks for your thoughtful ideas. Duffy

>>Interesting points. Well thought out and researched. There does seem to be "something" in the middle-ground between the "They're only competing for the best spot" theory and the "Golly they really LIKE each other" theory that is worth considering. I have sort of taken an instictual theory that goes something like: "If these other snakes are already here...It must be a good spot" Of course, our snakes don't really think or reason that, but I suspect that generations of instinct have "told" them that those "other" snakes would not be there if it was a crappy location.
>>
>>I will admit that I tend to adopt a somewhat simplistic approach when I answer the "cohabitation" question. I probably do so due to the fact that so many people who ask it ARE still grappling with the basics, and I usually feel that they need to leave that issue for later. I will also admit that I house two if my 13 snakes together...A duo of female corns.
>>
>>Thanks for your thoughtful ideas. Duffy

It's always good to discuss how others do and don't do things, lol. The vast majority of my snakes live singly, only my garters, and my one pair of corns, live in pairs. But it's definitely better to keep it simple for new hobbyists.

I'd suspect that you are right - the answer is probably in that middle-ground somewhere. And actually that's a very good point, that instinct tells them that the presence of other snakes may be of a benefit to them (ie. good basking spot) rather than competition. When grouping together becomes a benefit to a group of animals, that's when "social behavior" starts to be an evolutionary advantage as well.

Thanks for a good discussion!

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Lisa
Living Earth Environmental Education
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