Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I live in Ohio and would like to get a black rat. Is there anyway I can get one without having it PIT tagged in compliance with Ohio laws?

Thanks,
Dan

I don't know that there's any way to legally keep them without PIT tagging them. I think the answer to your question is to either consider another closely related ratsnake or keep a very low profile with your black rat. You certainly don't want to keep any animals illegally if you are considering getting into breeding/selling or otherwise interacting with the public.

I can assure you that many MANY ohio residents keep black rats as pets without tagging them. It would be a personal choice and a calculated (but very small) risk.

Duffy

Sorry, but if you want to comply with OH law, it will need to be tagged. I recently purchased a leucistic black rat from Mike Joliff (a black rat breeder in OH), and it was already PIT tagged when I purchased it. All that's left to do is receive my permit packet for $25.

Why don't you want to have it PIT tagged? Compared to the cost of buying the animal, setting up the cage properly, and maintaining/feeding it, the $25 for a permit is really not that big of a deal (even if I'd rather there weren't any regulations, it could be worse).
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::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo:

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Zia)
1.0 Leucistic Ratsnake
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 Panduro cichlids (A. panduro)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

Actually it's $25 PER YEAR, and the fee is rumored to go up. In addition, the ODNR can stop by your house for an inspection any time they wish. These are a couple of reasons breeders are against PIT tagging. In addition, how many luecistic, albino, brindle, etc. wild black rats have you seen? This is another reason why legitimate breeders are against PIT tagging - it penalizes them for captive breeding (no other state requires PIT tagging and as far as I know, Georgia is the only other state that regulates the keeping of obviously captive-bred color morphs). There are also concerns over health issues; animals have died after being PIT tagged. And before anybody responds and says the animal was tagged wrong, some of the animals that died were injected by professional veterinarians. If the ODNR insists on PIT tagging 18 inch snakes (not just black rats, but rough green snakes and ribbon snakes - which would obviously not survive this procedure) then they should provide the tagging service themselves. And before anyone responds saying they've PIT tagged Spring Peepers and Redbacked Salamanders, you'll need to check out the size of the needle and tag the ODNR is distributing and requiring for use.

Tim Spuckler

Yes, I understand that the fee is $25 per year - and as far as I know, it HAS gone up, since it used to be $10. I believe that is the expected increase you mentioned. I just count it as a yearly maintenance cost, and I don't personally find it to be that big of a deal. The permit allows you to have an unlimited number of captive-bred native snakes, and 4 wild caught specimens, so if you keep several, the cost of the permit is really trivial if considered per-snake. Some states do not allow native species to be kept at all, so I feel thankful that that's not the case here. Even if things could be better.

As for the PIT tagging, the ODNR does not actually require a certain size of needle or tag, as you said. They do send out a certain tag by default when you request one, but you do NOT need to purchase it from them. As long as it can be read by an AVID-mini tracker, you can use any size tag you wish. I got that information directly from an ODNR official when I told them that the rough green snake I was planning on acquiring would never survive the PIT tag they were handing out.

Anyway, I'm really not trying to defend PIT tagging or the system the ODNR has set up. I'd really rather that they didn't regulate, and have written letters and signed countless petitions trying to get them to change the system. BUT, the fact remains that the system is in place, and I personally don't think it's worth breaking the law over, especially with all the raids that have happened here in OH over the past few years.

Just my opinion. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers.
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::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo:

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Zia)
1.0 Leucistic Ratsnake
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 Panduro cichlids (A. panduro)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

I totally understand why the PIT tagging system is much harder on breeders than it is on pet keepers. I don't breed my snakes, but I don't even want to imagine what the costs of PIT tagging all those animals could be! But I thought this thread was regarding the non-commercial keeper's permit, which is why I responded the way I did.

I also agree that captive-bred morphs should not be included in the ODNR's regs. That, to me, is the most ridiculous part of this whole ordeal.
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::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo:

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Zia)
1.0 Leucistic Ratsnake
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 Panduro cichlids (A. panduro)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

While you say that "you totally understand that PIT tagging is harder on the breeder than the pet keeper," you seem to be forgetting that people are supposed to be buying their animals from breeders, rather than getting wild caught animals. So why would a ruling be put in place to penalize breeders?

You say that you disagree with color morphs being regulated. Guess who the vast majority of people were who got cited for snake violations? Answer: Owners of albino black rat snakes.

I never implied that people should break the law in any way, shape or form.

While $25 may be an inexpensive "maintenance fee" to you, the vast majority of Ohio snakes sell for less than $25 (normal black rats, normal garters, greens, ribbon snakes, etc.). If you are paying more than you paid for snake every year, most people would see that as beyond a "maintenance fee." Would you pay the government more than the price of your car each year and consider it a maintenance fee on your vehicle?

Why should this fee have to be paid every year?

It is irresponsible for the ODNR to supply oversized syringes. Period.

It is equally irresponsible to make it a law that reptiles be tagged, when absolutely no long term studies have been conducted to see if PIT tagging is safe for captive reptiles in the long run.

The ODNR does not provide a PIT tagging service. While you had the breeder install the tag, other owners may have to seek the services of a professional veterinarian, which costs money. Not everyone is located near a vet who handles reptiles. There are very few reptile vets in Ohio who have experience PIT tagging reptiles.

What do you think happened to un-PIT tagged turtles and Ohio snakes after raids took place and "unraided" people started freaking out? If you guessed that these animals were probably released into the wild or euthanized, I'd agree with you.

Isn't the idea supposed to be conservation? A heck of a lot of animals have died due to this "conservation" law. I don't call that good wildlife management.

PS: I am well aware that people were busted for selling wild-caught turtles - in some cases large numbers of wild-caught turtles. I hope those people get what they deserve. But this is the Rat Snake Forum and ratsnake owners in general are appalled by this ruling.

Sorry, I really didn't mean to get into any kind of debate.

I'll say it again: I absolutely DO NOT agree with the PIT tagging or any other regs that ODNR has decided to impose on us. But, I was simply trying to point out that it *could* be worse, and correcting some misinformation.

Anyway, I'm leaving this thread now. I seriously didn't mean to start a war over here.
-----
::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo:

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Zia)
1.0 Leucistic Ratsnake
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 Panduro cichlids (A. panduro)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

W
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Jason