What is the longest anyone has had a dumerils go after a pre birth shed before dropping her babies? I have an 8 foot female that shed on 5-12-05 and had a black gooey discharge on 5-26.As of today she has not dropped. Thanks Bill
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How much longer?
snakeman97
Jun 07, 2005 11:22 PM
Replies (29)
Biophiliacs
Jun 08, 2005 03:15 PM
Dumerils pre-birth ritual reminds me very much of how most pythons lay eggs. Not sure, but if its gone beyond 10 days its either a no-go or a complication of some kind.
Another subject related to this...
Dumerils are so much different than South American boas, IMO. Why were were they placed into the same genus? If you asked me they are more like a live-bearing python than a boa with respect to the subject above.
Keep me posted Bill... do you have a back-up female?
Later-
Matt Schubarth
Pet Nebula
thecaiman
Jun 09, 2005 09:57 PM
Bill, I have had dumerils go 108-156days after the shed. I dont keep records anymore I gave up on records in the 90's because there is no consistansy. It wasnt like the bulk were around the low end out of the 10 or 15 dumerils litter I had produced till I stopped keeping records it was all over the place, so dont let matt scare you if im correct hes only produced one litter on purpose and 2 total. One of the females I bred to Arancio is doing the same thing, she shed like 2 weeks ago took the crap, shes been pacing for 3days and today all the weight started to shift and they bred back in Nov and Dec. Nothing unusual.
Matt your info is totally incorrect why are you scaring people like that. How do you think he feels when the female he is referring to is possibilly caring a new morph and your setting there telling him theres a prob? Theres no prob you info is just WAY off
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Jason & Danica
So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)
dabear
Jun 09, 2005 10:56 PM
Jason
I am not trying to start stuff but Matt put the intials IMO so thats just what it was you on the other hand are quick to tell him he is wrong .I would say no opinions are wrong they are just that opinions and we all have one you just listen to the ones you choose so please can we give just that opinions and leave out the personal insulting and yes I read this forum all the time and he can be just as bad as you but so what if you know you are right then live with that and leave all the other stuff out......now back to the snakes please
snakeman97
Jun 10, 2005 10:22 AM
Thanks everyone for your responses.I posted the question to get other peoples experiences.That's the great thing about this forum. Both answers were good. I was hoping to find someone that has experienced a similiar pregnancy knowing that sometimes with dumerils you can throw out the calendar. I have a friend that is a major reptile breeder in California and he says dumerils are the most unpredictable and he does not try to figure them out anymore. Also Jason I did not breed this female to my orange dumerils.I bred him to two other females. Once again I appreciate the respones and hope we can keep the forum fun and informative. Bill
thecaiman
Jun 10, 2005 10:54 AM
Ok cool for someone reason last time I talked to you I got the impression you were only expecting the two litters. Butr ya your buddy is right 100% they have no calender, take care
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Jason & Danica
So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)
thecaiman
Jun 10, 2005 10:51 AM
I wasnt insulting him I was simply reminding bill to take him with a grain of salt if you refering to me saying about his 2 litters. 2 litters is very limited and doesnt give anyone the background to make a call like that. I know what Bill is sitting on and Matts opinion/info(whatever you want to call it) is wrong. With that background to sit and tell someone that there is something wrong with their female that is potentioally carrying a new morph IMO is wrong. How would you feel if you were sitting on a new morph totally excited about it, felt it was taking longer then you thought it would and posted here looking for sound info and someone did that to you and got you worried and upset. Im not trying to speak for Bill but I wouldnt want to be in those shoes. I would want sound info from someone who has the background. Matt has all the heart in the world for dumerils just IMO needs to take a step back watch and learn a bit. IMO he is to gung ho on trying to prove himself.
Dumerils being a species from a cooler enviro have a longer gestation. Yes if you keep them hot it will speed up the procees much like egg barriers but then you run the rist of deformities. You keep a gravid colombian hot and you get funky aberincys(spelling whatever)and if you run a colombian to extremes youll wind up with birth defects, kinks etc. Dumerils have a finer line they can be run, Ive produced a few kinked in my time, single or doubles in a large litter. You can tell they were the ones in Moms belly that sat directly on the heat source. However you dont get the goofy patterns like the colombians and I have produced both in the colombians.
Now a dumerils that is goign to slug or is having problems is just like a colombian in the respect of the way they act and look although harder to tell because they dont fatten up and show being gravid as well as a colombian. If you know what you are looking at you can tell a female that will slug from one that will have live offspring. Normally all will look great up untill the last couple weeks. The last couple weeks instead of the slight darkening in color that they normally have, in dumerils lose of bright pinks, tans will get a muddy look to them, the white in the eyes one their sides will get a hayes over that looks like they are about the shed thats all normal if the animal is about to slug it will give its coloration a sickly apearance it will look totally stressed.
as far as weight Normally within the last couple weeks of a dumerils it will become more noticable that she is gravid the weight will start to shift toward the vent. Normally in any male snake from the vent back to the tip of the tail its a nice even tapper. females you can see a signifiacant drop behind the vent. In a gravid female when the weight starts to shift that drop becomes in possibly to miss. The female will look almost swollen around the vent
In one that is having problems or going to slug you dont notice the weight shift, what you will notice is weight lose. If you have ever gotten in farmed BP's and had one or two that were nice and fat when you got them then got that bacterial infection common within farmed BP's they look good when you get them, nice and fat normal coloration, then when they start blowing snot their coloration darkens, sides start to sink in and noticable weight lose, a dumerils that will slug will do prewtty much the same.
Now as far as gestation Ive had them go 108-156 days like I said above from the initial shed. them I have had some that would shed again and drop 10-14days after the next shed and I have had some that would hit 120 day mark drop the litter and shed in the following days. Their gestation is so long due to the cooler climate they come from and due to the cooler climate they come from their gestation periods can be shortened or lentghened by temps. ohh and the only reason I rember these two litters is because of a discussion I had with Brain Sharp shortly after the second litter he swore up and down dumerils would drop 105 same as colombians, I had a huge 9ft female dumerils one yr she dropped at 108 days had, I think, 2 more live about 4 days later then shed the following wk. The following yr she shed at 140 days and dropped at 156. While I kept records all other litters fell somewhere there in between. If Bills female isnt showing any of the signs of slugging out or stress(which is what I gathered from his post) and is just running past the expected due date that tells me everything is fine and he kept her on the cooler side. No cause for alarm.
So no I am not attacking Matt, Had I been the one posting looking for sound info, Matt responded had I taken him seriously that would have freaked me out. I wouldnt have apreciated it at all. Ive got a coulple females here that are running the same time lines and they are doing just fine. Matts litter and I think it was Tims were rather early. So its nothing personal, I hope that was enough about snakes for you. Thanks Jason
>>Jason
>> I am not trying to start stuff but Matt put the intials IMO so thats just what it was you on the other hand are quick to tell him he is wrong .I would say no opinions are wrong they are just that opinions and we all have one you just listen to the ones you choose so please can we give just that opinions and leave out the personal insulting and yes I read this forum all the time and he can be just as bad as you but so what if you know you are right then live with that and leave all the other stuff out......now back to the snakes please
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Jason & Danica
So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)
snakeman97
Jun 10, 2005 12:02 PM
Every response is greatly appreciated. They are all just opinions which is all I was looking for. I pick bits and pieces that I agree with and form my own opinion. There are no wrong answers. I just want to draw my own conclusions from other peoples experiences. Jason I have 3 females 2 of which I bred to my orange dumerils so I am hoping to have 2 litters produced by him
thecaiman
Jun 10, 2005 12:16 PM
If I came off as insulting Matt I apoligize, my other half tells me I type as I speak. Had this conversation played out in person I dont think anyone would feel I was insulting anyone just that I am very direct and straight foward often to a fault.
Bill cool deal i hope all turns out well it would be awesome to see some unrelated offspring that were compatable. We could swap some animals and sell some unrelated pairs. Anyway take care give me a call when you got some on the ground, thanks Jason
>>Every response is greatly appreciated. They are all just opinions which is all I was looking for. I pick bits and pieces that I agree with and form my own opinion. There are no wrong answers. I just want to draw my own conclusions from other peoples experiences. Jason I have 3 females 2 of which I bred to my orange dumerils so I am hoping to have 2 litters produced by him
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Jason & Danica
So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)
dabear
Jun 10, 2005 03:58 PM
Thanks it was very nice to read long thought out and well put together answers like that........good for you Jason and others who need to gather all they can for knowledge.......
dabear
Biophiliacs
Jun 10, 2005 03:03 PM
You said...*Bill, I have had dumerils go 108-156days after the shed. I dont keep records anymore I gave up on records in the 90's because there is no consistansy.*
I assume that number is from a POS(or a possible mid-gestation shed that I have witnessed) and not the pre-birth shed that Bill was asking about. Otherwise, were talking about a total gestation length of 7-10 plus months- is that what you meant?
Thanks-
Matt Schubarth
Pet Nebula
thecaiman
Jun 10, 2005 04:36 PM
these guys will carry their offspring somewhere around the same time frame my other half carried my kids, Ive witnessed births 108-156 from POS and also 10-21 from the preshed and sometimes a day or 2 prior to the preshed
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Jason & Danica
So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)
Biophiliacs
Jun 10, 2005 04:51 PM
The question Bill asked about was the pre-shed and at the time he was 21 days after the pre-shed. Today, he is getting into the 28th day from the pre-shed. You have stated an average of 14-21 days pre-shed as the norm, I would not dispute that. But wouldn't you say that any period beyond the 21st day is abnormally long and probably not the pre-shed?
Thanks-
Matt Schubarth
Pet Nebula
Biophiliacs
Jun 10, 2005 05:21 PM
I stated that the gestation period of six months was a little long and felt it was closer to 5 months. 5 times 28 days in a month, comes out to 140 days. You have given a gestation length of 108-156 days... looks like we are agreeing yet again.
Later-
Matt Schubarth
Pet Nebula
thecaiman
Jun 10, 2005 05:50 PM
Matt When I have time Ill sit down and type soemthing up for you, were not agreeing and when i have time Ill explain. I hoped to get in and out with one or two posts and this has taken consideable more time then I thought with way to much dramma for me, I should have known better, if nothing more dis proves your theoery about me trying to bait you this should, I cant stand drama and simply dont have time anymore, hense my absence so when I get time well chat some but no we are not agreeing on anything, ive got things I gotta get done take care
>>I stated that the gestation period of six months was a little long and felt it was closer to 5 months. 5 times 28 days in a month, comes out to 140 days. You have given a gestation length of 108-156 days... looks like we are agreeing yet again.
>>Later-
>>Matt Schubarth
>>Pet Nebula
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Jason & Danica
So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)
thecaiman
Jun 10, 2005 06:08 PM
My other half was reading some as I was typing and tells me that the female that we are currently waiting was bred in oct and early nov not dec, late nov/dec was my dwarf. I have no idea I thought and think it was dec but she has a better memory then I do, although to me her timeline does make more sense so shes probally right I got to much going on and cant remeber from one day to the next, I through them togther let them do their thing and whenever I think of it move the males I dont pay that much attention to dates anymore
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Jason & Danica
So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)
dabear
Jun 10, 2005 06:27 PM
circle to the left and then circle to the right....I must have missed the point of all this but you are both saying the same thing but trying not to agree on anything.....let go use the force its okay to agree you will not grow a third eye I swear.......and besides I am getting dizzy and as a blond thats not a good thing...........
thecaiman
Jun 10, 2005 10:58 PM
No dance dumerils carry alot longer the colombains somehwere in the rangte of 7-9months. Wait till all the babies sart popping in july/aug/sept ask the person when they observed the heaviest breeding. If they paid attention ods are most will tell you heaviest breedin was observed from nov-jan that puts it at around 9 months.
The ONLY reason I refered to the shed earleir as POS is because Matt did I was hoping it would simlify things because I didnt want to get into a debate over what the sehd is/called etc or anything to that matter. Dumerils do not have a POS shed as per say colombians, in my first post I refered to it as the initial shed. Maybe it fits the definition of POS, I dont know but its not the same. Ive had males that were with a female for two weeks somehwere in the neiborhood of 9 months they had some babies. Retained sperm? I dont know if its retained sperm then all mine do it. sheds come there after first one probally at about 4-5months
As far as shed records Ive explaned that I have them all over the place, single sheds doubles and Im about 90% sure a couple with triple sheds and when your talking 108-156days almost a 3 month span, thats not consistant, Matt was talking something about 140days, great now explain all the ones that fell in the 108-140, there was no common ground, I had that one female that was at both ends then I lost her before I ever got to bred her again, I said she shed at 140 dropped and 156, somehow Matt got that I said the bulk of breedings were 140, I have that one with numbers in my head only because I remeber my conversation with Brain, Ive said it like 5 times the rest were all over the place but just like the females that have produced 5/6 litters for me I have no doubt and would bet money that, that one would have been all over like them. But to pick 140 and jump up and down "hey we agree on something"...no we dont....what about 108-140???? Thats why I say we dont agree instead of trying to explain it all, picking one thing that jives and ignoring the rest, they were all over the places no middle ground
Im not saying someone cant find consitancy within their control group but from one group to the next there is none and I havnt found any within mine. You may very weel be able to take two females everything is exactly the same, feed light, temp, when you start cycling etc etc and you may get similar results. Take those two animals send them to a friend a hundred miles away, let him do it his way and Ill bet it totally throws you off. Or put the two in differant areas of the house, one upstairs one down. Why has research proven that some women that work or live in small areas throughout time their cycles start to run togther? when before being confinfed togther they were weeks off? If thats possibly I am sure that two female snakes that are 2ft apart divided by a thin wall can have alot of similarities within breeding
I also dont doubt that these early litters are either due to early breedings or high temps or a combination of both. Python eggs you can shave off what 10 days by increasing the temps if you know what your doing in eggs your talking about what 50day cycle give or take per species do the same things with a dumerils your looking at 100-150 I have no doubt someone could shave off 30 days
Another thing I dont know if its a factor here or not, I couldnt even tell ya where I read this, the only reason I rember it is because I had alot of success back home in PA, I moved to IL 4 or 5yrs ago and after the move had some problems for a yr or 2, did the same thing I did back home and it resluted in nothing or slugs. But after I moved here I read a report I have no idea who wrote it or where I read it but a couple of universities were doing some joint thing to find out if differant goegraphic locations affected life spans, breeding etc in non native reptiles. The answer they came to was yes, why I dont remeber an educated guess would be if you are at a similar altitude. beoromiic pressure and all that exciting stuff that I dont really understand, to the native conditions for that animal it will display closer behaviors to what it would in its native enviro, if your altitude, pressure etc is at the opisite end of the spectrum it would probally stress the animal or take it a while to adjust thats my guess I dont remeber what their conclusions were. When I first moved here the next couple of years were not my greatest breeding years and the only reason I remeber that is because it was an easy pawn to blame something else and make myself feel better that the probs were not my fault. So maybe it was the altitude and all that, maybe its wasnt but it makes sense to me because animals have some kind of sense for that stuff we will never under stand.
I used to deer hunt we had private proprty that was regulated during deer season. There was a couple peices of land we hunted that if we went out and didnt see any deer that day we knew their was a storm front coming in without looking at channel 8 news. The one peice we hunted in Spring Grove PA was great but the peice next door had better cover for storms. Normal weather ours had all the deer you could dream of. storm front, you wouldnt see a thing. How did the deer know maybe someone else knows but I dont. But they did and everytime a storm front came in they cleared out.
Now since my move I have a bunch of girls that bred there in PA and here in IL. They never shown me anything consitant there nothing here and nothing between the two. Up untill last year I didnt write it all down but took better mental notes last yr and this if I get somethign great if I dont oh well, to much going on.
I guess the point I am getting at with all that is there is a million and one variables. If someone can find the magic numbers cool deal. I dont think its lack of, everyones tried its just not there. With that I need some sleep so I can put my 14hrs in tomorrow YAAA and someone told me there was a benifit to being self employeed?? Still Looking!
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Jason & Danica
So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)
dabear
Jun 10, 2005 11:33 PM
I am now enjoying this question and answer session but while I will grant you there is slight differences .I still see similarities between you too.Hey where in pa did you live I was born just outside philly.........
thecaiman
Jun 11, 2005 07:38 AM
i grew up in york, spent 5yrs in easton after I got out of the military
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Jason & Danica
So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)
dabear
Jun 11, 2005 08:02 AM
Thats the home of Larry Holmes isnt it ??
thecaiman
Jun 11, 2005 09:38 AM
I have no idea theres alot of famous poeple from that area. Musician wise there is a ton, allentown had a good live band club scene so there was a mound of plat musicians that came from there, there was a couple of famous indy drivers just north of there, I never paid much mind its such a busy area you dont have time to look everyth9ng runs full throttle with no breaks
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Jason & Danica
So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)
thecaiman
Jun 10, 2005 05:39 PM
What I am stating is there is no average, Ive had some 10-21 days Ive had some longer, Ive had some that dropped and shed the next day(no pre shed). You say that because some of say there is no consitancy means theres been little research done. I think its been done and animal to animal or from control group to control group theres is no consitancy. My dwarf female always seems to be the fastest. My average size females are all over the board. The only thing I would say is consitant is that when the female is ready and wants to have them she will. Im not trying to be a smart ass just straight foward I wouldnt call 28days long if I get time Ill see if I can dig the records out their in a box in storage under 3 inches of dust if ZI think of it when I have time I will pull them. everything I have been typing is off the top of my heads and some of the info I have been relaying here dates back 10yrs or so so off the top of my head I think I have even had a couple females shed 3 times prior to droppng it was either 3 times prior or twice prior with an unexpected quick shed after off hand I dont rember which. But I remeber talking to someone about rertained sperm and her fetilizing when she felt right. I havnt thought of any of this in so long I just remeber the females I am thinking of had those extramly long gestation periods or so I thought if it was retained sperm then she was probally right on Q. But would I call 28 days long no, is shes displaying any of the signs in my other post then maybe theres an issue but if she still looks good healthy proper color, shes fine, Ill read your other post later take care
>>The question Bill asked about was the pre-shed and at the time he was 21 days after the pre-shed. Today, he is getting into the 28th day from the pre-shed. You have stated an average of 14-21 days pre-shed as the norm, I would not dispute that. But wouldn't you say that any period beyond the 21st day is abnormally long and probably not the pre-shed?
>>Thanks-
>>Matt Schubarth
>>Pet Nebula
-----
Jason & Danica
So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)
Biophiliacs
Jun 10, 2005 02:41 PM
First off, I wouldn't be offering this advice if it were not part of what I have experienced myself. I am very interested in anyone else's experience as well to further my knowledge of this specie.
Also, I'd like to say that I have very high hopes for your project, Bill, and it was not my intention to run this project down(I don't think you took it that way either). I should have asked you Bill, "How long since she's been with a male?". That way I might know which shed you were asking about, but I assumed you were expecting babies shortly.. so I figured it was the pre-birth shed. As far as I know, most Dumerils breeders subscribe to the belief that 7-10 days after this shed, they have babies. I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule but as more breeedings are done, it will be accepted as the norm.
I would also state that of the three(four in a few days) breedings I've carried out from begin to end.
1. There wasn't a POS.
2. Each female had a shed nearly half way through gestation.
3. Each female had a shed preceding birth of offspring.
So Bill, if you want my opinion. I would say that this could be the mid-gestation shed that I have witnessed before or she may have reabsorbed(this has happened to me more that once).
Later all-
Matt Schubarth
Pet Nebula
Biophiliacs
Jun 10, 2005 02:04 PM
I too hope that this forum will stay civil and as unbiased, scientifically speaking, as possible. I say "scientifically" because this is how I approach any breeding project- be it reptile, mammal, fish, whatever. Given the relatively little available data on Dumerils and their breedings, I think anyone breeding Dumerils should keep detailed notes on activities related to propagation. To say that there is no correlation between the time of copulation, the sheddings in between, and birth, shows how little is really known about the process.
Jason, to me at least, it seems like you spoke contrary about my experience in an attempt to bait me into another typing contest. I hope that we can move on from past disagreements for the betterment of this forum and its users.
Later-
Matt Schubarth
Pet Nebula
dabear
Jun 10, 2005 04:03 PM
For you guys to keep it all about the dumerils is a great thing because we can read about just that and enjoy it I will for one
so keep it going guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Biophiliacs
Jun 10, 2005 04:10 PM
....
dabear
Jun 10, 2005 04:47 PM
??????????????/
Biophiliacs
Jun 10, 2005 05:02 PM
Are you thinking about the female that is due to drop, tonight through Sunday? Well yes and no. The darker one in the picture is the male I got from you and the father of the litter I'm expecting. The lighter one is one of the daughters from the the female which is due, pictured below. Hopefully, she drops a few that look like her or either of her two daughters(which should breed next season).
thecaiman
Jun 10, 2005 04:25 PM
Matt Heres the last Ill say on this, what I said about your experiance was not meant as a bait or anything of the such. I was stating a fact. On top of those of us who post there is probally 50 for everyone of us who just read and dont even have acounts. Thats a consevative number from the people I talk to at shows its probally higher. Now how many readers that have gravid females there and this is their first of second yr freaked when they read that? Maybe a few? maybe nobody I dont know. Its was simple the info was wrong I pointed your experiance because I feel it is to limited to be throwing info like that out there, nothing more. Had it been Joe Blow who posted that and I knew Joe blow only had produced two or 3 litters I would have repsoned the same. It was nothing personal if you took it that way or as an insult I apoligize. This is why I havnt posted in months and for the most part dont even look at the forums anymore and have very little intention of doing anything except the rare post, Im direct, straight to the point and with my crappy grammer come across as an arogant prick. I dont have the time to worry about grammer, its something that is simply not important to me there is bigger things in life for me to worry about. Would it clear up some miss understandings maybe so. In any event if you talk to anyone who knows me from shows Im sure they will tell you I am the same at the shows. Short and direct but in person I dont come across as such a jerk. Im sure theres a few that will tell I do but oh well. Matt I hold nothing against you I really dont care what happened. I harbor no ill will towards anyone. Anything else about this drop me an email
As far as breeding data to say there is no correlation is because there are many variable that come info effect. If you find the magic temp and number of days etc that can prove true for dumerils litter youll be far wiser then me. Just like shows I gave up because there was no corrlation. I spent yrs looking at numbers trying to predict shows/sales, as soon as the numbers jived soemthing would happen that would throw it all off, there was no method to the madness same thing with Dumerils, you may be able to get consitancys within your controlled enviro but the guy next door is going to throw it all off. take care
>>I too hope that this forum will stay civil and as unbiased, scientifically speaking, as possible. I say "scientifically" because this is how I approach any breeding project- be it reptile, mammal, fish, whatever. Given the relatively little available data on Dumerils and their breedings, I think anyone breeding Dumerils should keep detailed notes on activities related to propagation. To say that there is no correlation between the time of copulation, the sheddings in between, and birth, shows how little is really known about the process.
>>
>>Jason, to me at least, it seems like you spoke contrary about my experience in an attempt to bait me into another typing contest. I hope that we can move on from past disagreements for the betterment of this forum and its users.
>>Later-
>>Matt Schubarth
>>Pet Nebula
-----
Jason & Danica
So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)
