Reptile & Amphibian Forums

While I do not keep "hots" myself (I consider the ones allowed in California which are mainly large native Rattlers to be much to dangerous for newbies) I do think this is a matter of individual freedom and rights and should be treated as such.

I am of the view that we should start treating the promulgators of all out "hot" ban legislation or even anti REPTILE legislation for that matter in the same manner that the gun rights crowd sees gun control proponants. This basically means we should no longer support them mo matter what we may think of the rest of their political philosophy nor vote for them. In my experience a politician or billionare businessman who attacks freedom in one area attacks it in OTHERS as well. In addition they ALWAYS look for the most vulnerable freedoms and rights that they can get public support for infringing before going for those people want to KEEP. (I am one of those gun rights people as well as a supporter of the Linux operating system in computing all of which I see as matters of basic individual freedom under threat.)

Where hots are concerned I would be for a private keeper friendly permitting system based on the following provisions

A permit based on a fee that would scale down based on experience without "tags" or escapes and the TOTAL proceeds of which would go to an antivenom bank for exotic "hots" in every state adopting it. This is how the fee system might work.

Newbie ------------------- $200.00 - year
These are the most dangerous keepers so they pay the most.

2.5 Year experience ------ $150.00 - year

5 years experience ------- $50.00 - year

Escapes should be handled by law on a "Three strikes your'e out basis with a ONE strike your out provision if any innocents
bitten during an escape. This means that a person who has a hot reptile escape on him three times in a matter that it has to be reported as a danger to the community has his permit revoked and can no longer keep hots. If a person other than the owner or others directly responsible for the snake gets bitten the owner's permit is immediately revoked no matter how many strikes are on him or her. This should apply both to true hots and so called "venomiods". (I think similar laws for BOTH would go toward discuraging the creation of the latter because handling a seemingly hot snake in an irresponsible manner is what "venomoids" seem to be all about. The ONLY viperid or elapid that I would call a venomiod without the quotes is a member of those families where the devenomized condition is natural and not the result of surgery and so far the only member of one of those families that I know that meets that condition is the fish egg eating Turtle Headed Sea Snake. (Elapidae)) and also to STATE KEEPERS (such as state universities and city zoos) as well as private ones (We all know how irresponsible the government can be in matters like this.)

I am all for liberty... but people also need protection. So, a permit system would be a great way to allow both. However, i disagree with your idea.

3 strikes and you're out??! How many chances should a person get when that could be three gaboon vipers in suburbia! 1 strike if an innocent is bitten? within what timeframe? What is stopping a highly venomous snake escaping, and biting someone 3 years later??

1 strike and you're out sounds more pliable. Escapes shouldn't occur - period. People's lives are at stake.

So, perhaps it would be better to only allow newbies to keep snakes of lesser danger, and then build up to the 'icons'. Say, minimum 1 or 2 years owning a non-venomous, then up from there.

Still - discussion is the only thing that's going to stop the banning altogether. No point letting it go until it's too late

Cheers.
a.

I agree and disagree. First of all, if you didn't vote for someone everytime you didn't like a single opposing view, people would never vote (at least I know I wouldn't). With the way today's government is, only having (usually anyways) 2 or 3 "real" choices, you pretty much have to just choose the one you hate the least.

However, I do like the idea of a structured permit system. One strike should be all it takes. There are no mistakes in this hobby. I like the idea of permits changing based on experience, animals kept etc. There is a difference between keeping a single copperhead and breeding mambas and cobras and many others, and with the added risk there should be added liability. Afterall, people who drive a mini van don't pay the same insurance as someone in a ferrari. I think that if there is any future in this hobby at all, it's going to be through a well thought out permit system. Perhaps rather than just asking the government (or whoever may be in charge) to not ban exotics, we should instead be proposing these permit systems. It may show them that there are actually responsible people in this hobby and we want to do what it takes to maintain it, rather than just whining when we don't get our way.

-Will

Snakes dont work like that and either should we. I do think regulations should be a bit more loose but a mistake with a venomous snake should be "one strike your out."

The reason I believe in more than one strike for "non bite" escapes is that this would encurage reporting the escape before it becomes a "bite" escape with possibly tragic results. To make it one strike all the way around would DISCURAGE the reporting of escape incidents. When an escape does happen I believe reporting it and getting professional police and herpers involved is absolutely essential.

However I can see a strict one strike system for people who want to keep the deadliest snakes on the planet and have therefor revised my proposed permit system along those lines.

Novice - fee -------------> $50.00 year
This permit would apply to all rear fanged snakes capable of producing significant human envenomations with the exception of Boomslangs, Twig Snakes and Asiatic Keelbacks. It would also apply to Helodern lizards and front fanged snakes with a 5% statistical death rate or less with the exception of Austrialian elapids spacifically covered by the Extra Advanced Permit with low appearant statistical death rates but highly toxic venoms and efficient means of delivering them.

General - fee ------------> $100.00 year
This permit would apply Asiatic Keelbacks and to front fanged snakes with a 20% statistical death rate or less other than those covered by the Extra Advanced permit classification. It would require at least one year of experience with Novice level reptiles with no escapes or bites attributed to the applicant's reptils before an application at this level could be made.

Advanced - fee -----------> $200.00 year
This permit would apply to most snakes with a statistical death rate of 20% or more with the exception of those covered in the
Extra Advanced permit classification and to Boomslangs and Twig Snakes. It would require at least one year of experience with General level reptiles with no escapes or bites attributed to the applicant's reptiles before an application at this level can be made.

Extra Advanced - fee -----> $500.00 year
This permit applies only to these highly dangerous species of Elapids.

All Austrailian/New Guinian Taipans and Fierce Snakes.
All Australian Tiger Snakes.
All Australian Brown Snakes.
All Mambas
All Spitting Cobras
All King Cobras.

It would require 3 years experience with snakes at the advanced level with no bites or escapes to apply for it and would be the ONLY permit issued on a ONE strike your out basis for ALL escapes and bites attributed to these snakes that would apply to ALL venomous reptiles owned by the permit holder. (ANYONE with asperations to keep the most deadly snakes on the planet should be ready to submit to the strict one strike standard as a consequence of doing so.)

Both the fee system and the strikes consequences system here are based on the relative danger a given collection of reptiles represents to the owner and the general public. Once again all fees would go TOTALLY into supporting and stocking an exotic antivenom bank in every state that adopts this system and NOT to the state's general fee/tax fund. Once again it all fees and consequences would apply equally to both private and government venomous reptile collection keepers and would apply equally to fully "hot" reptiles and surgically altered "venomoids" to discurrage trying to get out of the consequences involved with escapes through collecting the latter.

Just thought I would put my 2 cents in here.....

On top of the permit fees, I feel it is important to make sure that the owner be held responsible in the event of a bite one somebody else due to a mistake. Just like dogs, prison sentences should be issued in the event of deaths' caused by escaped venomous snakes. All hospital fees should have to be paid in the event of a bite without death. This is probably already in effect, but if not, I thought I would just mention it. I do agree with a structured permit system though. It would certainly help keep down on the amounts of morons keeping things they shouldnt.

JMO

Chris

The ONLY way someone should ever be able to keep venomous snakes or ANY dangerous animal is with strict liability. These laws work to where no matter how minor or severe, how it happened, no matter what the case is at all...its the owners fault. Same type of laws are held for people who demolish buildings with explosives.

I think a big reason these bans are popping up is because "plain and simple" snake keepers are not understanding just how serious activities held under strict liability are suppose to be. People involved in this are to take the most extensive actions to avoid problems....and we all know there are plenty of people out there who are just not cut for the job. Everyone looses when too many people are stupid.

Why do you rate only those elapid species under the "Extra Advanced" level of the permit system? I know I'm not the only one thinking this, but there are some viperids that I would put right up there with any elapid...examples including Lachesis sp., Daboia sp., larger Bothrops sp., etc. I think at least a few of us here would agree that these snakes can certainly pose at least as much danger as any spitting Naja on the planet. Me personally, I believe they can be far more dangerous than most of the elapids on that list. So where exactly would these highly dangerous viperds fall in the scheme of things? This is just something I was wondering about.
-Chance
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

Even thoigh I don't keep hots my main study of them has been the Elapidae and their evolution.

However if the vipers you mention are unmanagable by anyone but long term (5 year or more) experts, even with trap box systems and hooks like the Elapids i mentioned in the Advanced Extra catagory they should go there as well. Other vipers that should go there are Crotalus durrisus rattlesnakes and large Bitis species because of their extrordinary large fangs and tendencies to develop elapid like as well as viper like venoms.

Permits should be issued according to species. Factors such as toxicity, volume of venom, and delivery appartatus would be considered. Husbandry for a given species would be considered as well-no one wants a bunch of stressed snakes due to inadequate housing. Keeper's overall snake handling skills, and knowledge of a certain species, and knowledge of how to obtain AV would be issued in as well.

A keeper would have to have previous experience keeping harmless before issued permits were considered.

I believe that before anything venomous is owned, a period of owning non-venemous reptiles should be compulsory.

In Australia, the advanced reptile holder's licence requires the completion of a 3 day course. It teaches appropriate husbandry techniques and ensures (to some extent) proper knowledge of the particular snakes to be handled. This would go a long way in reducing the risks in America.

Another thing, perhaps only 'regulation' approved enclosure setups. Minimum glass thicknesses, etc - to prevent people throwing together a not-so-secure enclosure.

Possibly worth a look - (although could be considered taking it too far) - is for, after the course be completed, some sort of simple exam to ENSURE proper knowledge of how to deal with escapes, bites, tricky feeders. Simply, people that fail shouldn't be keeping the relevent species anyway.

And another - a separate permit for breeding.

Classification of species as to relevent permits isn't really the main issue. It is first necessary to show a willingness to reach a compromise for the good government of herps, particularly venoms.

So, you guys wanna form a new political party or what??

That this hobby should be regulated is for sure. These are dangerous animals with the potential to kill neighbors. I think we all agree on that. I think we can also all agree that outright bans are simplistic knee-jerk reactions to a non-problem. In most cases zoo directors are consulted during the lawmaking process. They know that it is a knee-jerk reaction, but they also know that there are too few people who yell about it to make a difference. I think its time for everyone who keeps or has kept these animals and other exotics to start yelling. In addition to what you propose, there should be a boycott as proposed by Sierra down below. No snakes, no exotics, no equipement should be sold to any institution that has in any way supported a ban in the past. Those zoos that have not supported bans should be held under a sales contract to not donate, sell, or trade any of the above resources to any blacklisted institution. If they are found to do so, they should be on the list as well. Most of you live near a banned area or have moved away from one, get that list going. It has to start somewhere, why not here? I kept venomous snakes for over 20 years without incident before moving to a banned area and giving all my snakes away. Make these institutions think twice about supporting a ban, and make the ones who already have pay for it. Deal them the same medicine they dealt you, if you cant keep them then neither can they. If every one here gets behind it, it can grow. If we can get dealers and importers behind it, it will have an effect. Stop being pushed around.

To a point I agree, however, do you really think that suppliers are really going to agree with that? Suppliers are still making money. The only way that we could work that out with them is to make them see that it can only get them less money. However, I agree fully that we need to start making some arguments and getting out there. I dont keep venomous (yet), but would like to someday when I have gained enough experience, and feel that I wont be signing my own death warrant (at least so easily). If these bans go through, I will not have that chance. I have alot of future plans for herps in my life, and I dont like the idea of a stupid ban coming in and ruining that for me or anyone else.

Neighbors, etc. stand a much greater chance in this world of getting killed by a drunk driver, drive by shooting, getting attacked by a pit bull, etc. than they have of being bitten by a venomous snake. It's nice to see that here in America that we have cured problems for poor education in schools, getting drugs out of our kids hands, getting assault weapons off of the streets, finding homes for the homeless, getting people back into jobs, etc. and now we are moving on to more important things in life.

What's funny is that there has been alot of studies being done recently on venom and such. Alot of these have been spawned due to keepers/zoologists/etc noticing special attributes about individual animals (example: crocodilians have been found to have a natural antibiotic in their blood and is now being tested and formulated to make antibiotics for humans. This antibiotic creatively called "crocodillin". All of these people in zoos etc, have all been private keepers at one time. Keeping these animals typically is what spawns peoples interest to go further with their hobby and interest. These people continuously make a difference in not only the lives of the animals but for humans as well.

Ok, well it's 2:45am and I woke up for some odd reason and couldnt go back to sleep. My apologies of my post makes no sense and I dont feel I am in the correct mind-frame to properly re-analyze it. I have come to notice................

that I should get back in the bed!

Nite