Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A couple of weeks ago I posted about my male MBK's intense feeding response. I can live with the continuous biting as long as he is healthy and can produce, but I am concerned that he might try to eat the female when it is time to breed. They are the same age and will probably be close in size when the time comes.

Does this happen? If so, What are some of the precautions that I can take.

thanks
jeff

Assuming that it is the right time of year and both snake are ready to breed there should be few problems. A few precautions:

Introduce the larger or more agressive one into the other one's cage. I would recomend handling or soaking them both, imediately before introducing them so that they are not in feeding mode when the cage door is opened and a new snake is placed beside them.

The most important thing is to watch them like a hawk the first time you put them together. Make sure you do it when you have some free time and get a bucket of luke warm water ready incase they fight you can dunk them. If they have been getting along fine for a few hours you probobly have nothing to worry about. Usually all of this is only necessary with first time breeders, next year thay will both know what to do.

Good luck

**Introduce the larger or more agressive one into the other one's cage.**

This is irrelevant, as it is usually the female that will try to kill the male if the female is not ready. Size does not matter when the female is in the killing mode and not the breeding mode.

**I would recomend handling or soaking them both, imediately before introducing them so that they are not in feeding mode when the cage door is opened and a new snake is placed beside them.**

Does not matter if the female is not ready to breed.

**The most important thing is to watch them like a hawk the first time you put them together. Make sure you do it when you have some free time and get a bucket of luke warm water ready incase they fight you can dunk them.**

Agree with ya here.

**If they have been getting along fine for a few hours you probobly have nothing to worry about.**

Not always the case. I know of breeders that have lost males by leaving them alone overnight.

**Usually all of this is only necessary with first time breeders, next year thay will both know what to do.**

Totally not true. Age has nothing to do with it. Cal kings are cannibalistic, that does not change with age.

Kerby...

Before saying anything else, look at the first line of my post.

***Assuming that it is the right time of year and both snake are ready to breed there should be few problems. A few precautions:**

Under normal circumstances snakes that have been properly conditioned should get right in with each other no prob. And of course the female needs to be ready to breed if any of this is going to work. But since this guy is worried about a particularly agressive male, there are a few things that can be done to reduce risk.

***Size does not matter when the female is in the killing mode and not the breeding mode.***

Are you really saying that a 3 1/2 foot female is a danger to a male thats almost 6 feet? When you put 2 constrictors together, if there is going to be a problem the smaller snake is almost garanteed to come out on the worse end of things. Thats why if you take the larger snake a little bit out of its comfort zone by putting into the smaller snakes cage you reduce risk. Unfortunately though, the bigger snake usually has the bigger cage and so people tend to do the reverse.

So picture this: You raise a snake for 3 or 4 or even 5 years, and during that time the only thing that comes through the door of the cage is your hand or food. Then one day a smaller snake is thrown inside. Most snakes get the picture, instinct takes over and they breed, but some are still in feeding mode and will attack.

I have only had this problem 3 times with kingsnakes and each time it was with a virgin pair and the male was the one that attacked. Now, 3 times is not a lot to base conclusions on, and the males were all significantly larger and the female was placed in their cage so the situation was stacked in the males favor.

In reality with a larger female you are probobly right in that they are more likely to attack, but it can happen the other way too.

In all three of these situations the males were placed in the females cage the next year and they had no problems. Once the male understands what he's supposed to do with the female, he doesn't usually forget. I'm just sayin what works for me. But again if the female isn't ready then things are more likely to get hairy.

Aslo, in the wild a male king would leave his territory during breeding season and seek out females, so it is natural to move the male.

And your right about overnight being the true test of time. But if they have been fine all day the chances of a fight in the middle of the night is small. Hell its small anyway.

sorry about all the long posts
-Zach

My finest cali [in the free world] did strangle her 4' nigritus lover [who belonged to a buddy of mine!] & eat him a couple of years ago....ruffsex 4 sure! & while I havent bred nearly the number you lads likely have,... it is one of 2 times that I've ever had calis be cannibals & Ive kept them together & even in 3's for years?
In-experienced breeders shouldnt make the mistake [as of course I did as a lad] the typical colubrid male neck biting to be feeding behavior...and interfere w/ them

Agreed, I've had lots of "tuff love" where the male will bite the female to stabilize/submit her. Which like you say, is not the same thing as cannibalism.

Some people keep their cal king colonies together without incident, and some have tried that and paid the price dearly. I don't take that risk.

John, I'm headed down to the Ritas at the end of the month. I have to drop my son off at the U of A and I will be spending a couple of days and nights herping down south.

Kerby...

Hello Kerby, If your advising me of your trip in order that I corral ya up a mess o green rats...fine I will. If youre look'n for another set of I-Z, gimme a heads up as the data draws closer & mebbe I can get away & join up w/ you. I need 2 shoot a mess of cnemis to freeze-up 4 regalis feeders...unless a bounty of Ks feeders turns up soon....

I have no agenda except to scout during the day time and make notations on my map and then herp at night. Not really looking for any chartruese colored rats. Just creepy crawlers in general for my web site.

E-mail me and I will give you my cell # if you don't already have it.
azmilk@cableone.net

Kerby...

**Are you really saying that a 3 1/2 foot female is a danger to a male thats almost 6 feet?**

Exactly!!!!!!!! Only I don't have any 6ft cal kings. Generally the males are ready to breed during the spring time and aren't in the killing mode. I have had lots of females that weren't ready to breed and the female DOES ATTACK THE MALE no matter what the size difference is. I've never had a male attack a female.

**When you put 2 constrictors together, if there is going to be a problem the smaller snake is almost garanteed to come out on the worse end of things. Thats why if you take the larger snake a little bit out of its comfort zone by putting into the smaller snakes cage you reduce risk. Unfortunately though, the bigger snake usually has the bigger cage and so people tend to do the reverse.**

That is why we are talking about cal kings and not "constrictors". Lots of snakes are constrictors that aren't cannibalistic. Size is irrelevant in cal kings. It's more of a female vs male thing, not size.

**So picture this: You raise a snake for 3 or 4 or even 5 years, and during that time the only thing that comes through the door of the cage is your hand or food. Then one day a smaller snake is thrown inside. Most snakes get the picture, instinct takes over and they breed, but some are still in feeding mode and will attack.**

I can picture that because that is what I do. I understand about condition/response reflex. When I breed my cal kings I wait until the female sheds and I keep her shed in her cage. I let the male cal king crawl into the female's cage, smelling the shed first. The male is always wanting to breed, not feed. If the female is ready then they breed, if not, then trouble can occur quickly. It is the female that decides when to breed, not the male.

**I have only had this problem 3 times with kingsnakes and each time it was with a virgin pair and the male was the one that attacked. Now, 3 times is not a lot to base conclusions on, and the males were all significantly larger and the female was placed in their cage so the situation was stacked in the males favor.**

I've had 18 month old females and 10 year old females attack males. Size and age does not matter.

**Aslo, in the wild a male king would leave his territory during breeding season and seek out females, so it is natural to move the male.**

Agreed! I always introduce the male to the female.

**And your right about overnight being the true test of time. But if they have been fine all day the chances of a fight in the middle of the night is small. Hell its small anyway.**

Agree, that the risk is smaller the longer they are together, but I choose never to leave them overnight together. I am always breeding certain males to certain females and I cannot risk or replace some of my breeders. So the risk to me is unquestioned. There have been lots of documentation of females eating the males after breeding.

I'm not trying to start an argument. There is more than one way/method to breeding cal kings. Do what works for you.

Kerby...

Kerby, 3 things.
First of all kingsnakes are constrictors.
Secondly, do you realy separate all of your kingsnake pairs at night?
Third, when you pick apart everyones email word by word it makes people feel defensive and like you are just trying to pick apart everything they say. Just lettin ya know.

"Kerby, 3 things.
First of all kingsnakes are constrictors."

Glad you clarified that. LOL

"Secondly, do you realy separate all of your kingsnake pairs at night?"

Yes, I do.

**Third, when you pick apart everyones email word by word it makes people feel defensive and like you are just trying to pick apart everything they say. Just lettin ya know.**

You mean like you just did? LOL

Whatever..... Back to posting just pics again.

Kerby...

i'd have thought females would be the ore likely to eat their mates...males are usually off food, at least to a degree, once they're in breeding cycle.

at any rate, yeah, my female (chain) king ate the male a day or so after i put her with him and left for a weekend. (they were fine the first 8-12 hrs). She was maybe 50" and he about 4" shorter.

peace
terry