Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I talked to a breeder who says he keeps his pairs together in the cage. I often hear people saying this is bad. is it ok or is it not ok to keep a western pair together even though the female is bigger?

Even breeders can be idiots. No, it-is-not-ok-to-put-hognoses-together... especially when one is bigger! Cannibalism has been reported several times just on this forum in past couple of years. Even ones that have been kept together for 2 years. I have to ask, is it really that hard to buy and find space for another 10 gallon tank? What is the real benefit to keeping them together, so they can be best friends? The non-fuzzy and feathery world doesn't work like that. It is an unnecessary risk, period. This amount of sarcasm is not necessarily directed toward you, among other things, I don't understand what the issue is here and why the question has to be repeated on this forum.
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*Humans aren't the only species on earth... we just act like it.

".the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without
spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

Even breeders can be idiots. No, it-is-not-ok-to-put-hognoses-together... especially when one is bigger! Cannibalism has been reported several times just on this forum in past couple of years. Even ones that have been kept together for 2 years. I have to ask, is it really that hard to buy and find space for another 10 gallon tank? What is the real benefit to keeping them together, so they can be best friends? The non-fuzzy and feathery world doesn't work like that. It is an unnecessary risk, period. This amount of sarcasm is not necessarily directed toward you, among other things, I don't understand what the issue is here and why the question has to be repeated on this forum.
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*Humans aren't the only species on earth... we just act like it.

".the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without
spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

I like Colchicine's attitude on this, at least the middle part about buying another 10-gallon aquarium. However, the benefit, or "benefit" really, of keeping two snakes together in one enclosure is less enclosures to keep eyes on and maintain although you'd still be cleaning up the feces of two snakes either way, yes. And on the cannibalism...

Really, you can keep two hognose snakes together without any worries. I actually wouldn't be most concerned about any possible cannibalism, but rather one specimen being too significantly bigger than the other, for it might crush the smaller specimen although I suppose it could squeeze out from underneath, for hognose snakes aren't exactly anacondas. But still...if you're going to keep two or more hognose snakes together, let them be around the same size, and preferably feed them separately.

Thanks,

T.J. Gould

However, the benefit, or "benefit" really, of keeping two snakes together in one enclosure is less enclosures to keep eyes on and maintain although you'd still be cleaning up the feces of two snakes either way, yes.

I am not sure I agree with that idea. If you aren't prepared to do twice as much work, maybe you shouldn't have two snakes?

Have I ever kept more than one snake in a cage.....of course. Did I think it was optimal.....no.

No species of Heterodon, Lioheterodon, or Lystrophis will naturally prey on themselves, not even if they are famished. Cannibalism in hognose snakes has only occurred in captivity, by accident of course, and during feeding time I'd be willing to bet.

Both Heterodon nasicus and platirhinos have been recorded eating snakes in the wild. They may not do it often, but they do eat snakes. Westerns have been recorded eating Thamnophis and Coluber. I doubt those were wild feeding accidents.

I don't keep my eastern kingsnakes together either for the very same reason. The only difference is one of probability, but both probabilities are unacceptable to me.
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Chris Harrison

Applause goes to Chris on this one. Nothing agaist TJ, I can't help but to thoroughly agree with Chris' statement...

"The only difference is one of probability, but both probabilities are unacceptable to me."

Here's a little rant...
Let's face it, the vast majority of people on kingsnake.com are not advanced keepers working in the zoo field with 10 yrs of experience. When we (advanced keepers with advanced knowledge) make statements on these forums we have to assume that someone else other than the original poster is reading it as well. Chances are there is going to somebody new to the hobby who can't differentiate the difference between putting two snakes together of equal size or not. Although my post may have been overkill and assuming the worst, it is nonetheless a generalization for all the other people who read these forums but don't post (typically around 75% of the visitors). I can only assume that TJ knows what he is doing, and hopefully he knows the risks involved. But I also have to assume that most people here do not know the risks. ANYWAY...
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*Humans aren't the only species on earth... we just act like it.

".the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without
spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

I am not sure I agree with that idea. If you aren't prepared to do twice as much work, maybe you shouldn't have two snakes?

This statement makes utterly no sense; it has no significance to what I said. Basically, I was implying you'd still be cleaning up two snakes' feces, and of course you'd have to be able to handle it.

Just because it is easier, doesn't mean it is better. Another way to look at this is that you will have two snakes crawling through each other's feces (at least temporarily).

A very good point I would agree with, except that, have you ever noticed--when kept in a big enough enclosure--that snakes (especially hognose snakes now that I really think about it) always crawl around or over freshly laid feces, even each other's? Yes, they may crawl over the feces after they have dried and hardened, but that is not as unsanitary and unhealthy as if they were to crawl over freshly laid feces which would stick to them and definitely cause some health problems. Just notice how they avoid them. And occasional baths wouldn't hurt...

Have I ever kept more than one snake in a cage.....of course. Did I think it was optimal.....no.

Perhaps not, and perhaps I agree with you, unless--as I quickly mentioned previously--you have a big enough enclosure and stay on top of it well. But perhaps if you can afford separate enclosures and have the space, all specimens would be better off being kept separately, you're right.

Both Heterodon nasicus and platirhinos have been recorded eating snakes in the wild. They may not do it often, but they do eat snakes. Westerns have been recorded eating Thamnophis and Coluber. I doubt those were wild feeding accidents.

Alright, now this where you obviously didn't understand a word I was saying. Please read again:

Yes, hognose snakes have been known to eat other snakes in the wild, but that's OTHER snakes, such as Thamnophis and Coluber, as you mentioned; and those were not feeding accidents. Hognose snakes have NEVER been known to naturally prey on themselves.

There have been instances of them eating each other in captivity. Just read the archives for this forum and see. Some of those may have been feeding "errors", I don't know. I just know I don't risk keeping my hogs together.

I suppose you have a legitimate reason for prefering not to house hognose snakes together, but even here, you say, "...in captivity." Indeed cannibalistic acts that have taken place in captivity were feeding errors, for my mian point in this argument is just the fact that hognose snakes do NOT naturally prey on themselves, it is not their intention. Trust me...I've had several close calls in the terrarium where my hognose snakes have almost eaten each other, but I could see they were clearly mishaps, they were not really trying to each other. Again, the only point I've been trying to make in this argument is that no species of Heterodon, Lioheterodon, or Lystrophis are naturally cannibalistic, yet I understand cannibalism has occurred in captivity, but only on error. Hognose snakes may be kept together, but caution should be taken during feeding time, simple as that.

I don't keep my eastern kingsnakes together either for the very same reason. The only difference is one of probability, but both probabilities are unacceptable to me.

Now, this last statement--used as an 'analogy' if you will--is very ignorant to me because kingsnakes actually are cannibalistic, so of course you wouldn't keep them together. It was just useless to mention this because it's a whole different ball game than with hognose snakes.

Thanks,

T.J. Gould