Reptile & Amphibian Forums

that was supposed to be "what would { I } have done" I don't know why this thing thought that was all to be italics. I didn't even put in the backslash!
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"When tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign foe."

James Madison

>>that was supposed to be "what would { I } have done" I don't know why this thing thought that was all to be italics. I didn't even put in the backslash!
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Apparently you are not familiar with the pseudo-html that is used on these forums. This will help you: Forum Tools & Toys

DP

yes I'm familiar with it hero.

thanks for the almost assist though.

what nerve
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"When tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign foe."

James Madison

>>yes I'm familiar with it hero.
>>
>>thanks for the almost assist though.
>>

You are most certainly welcome.

DP

You're quite correct, of course. There is always more than one option...
On another note, if I lived in a place where I had a regular visitor, I think I'd definitely check out thread trailing, or even just follow it around (after packing a picnic lunch of course). Terminal curiosity can be a curse...

Stephanie

hehe..yeah, but radio tagging, GPS tracking, or even a "turtle cam" would be safer for the turtle than it dragging a string...and probably less of a bother to it than being following. it also wouldn't be hard for you to lose track of. I've lost a turtle for a while before. right in my yard only a few feet away!

it would be neat to take a day to follow the travels of a box turtle though! they do a lot of "stopping to smell the flowers".

Mick
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"When tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign foe."

James Madison

I mentioned thread trailing mainly because it's low cost/low tech, and probably easier to handle for an amateur*. If turtles in the wild behave like mine do here, they definitely do alot of 'just hangin' around'.
Stephanie
*in the true sense of the word.

>>My first thought would be to find him a suitable new wild habitat away from the developed area. my second choice would be to set him up at home in the yard. freedom being the first consideration for those born free.
>>

Considering that it is known that only a *small* portion of the overall box turtle population are natural "wanderers" (they don't set up permenant territories) and seeing that Hobo has consistantly shown himself to *not* be one of those wanderers (since he keeps showing up in the same area on a semi-regular basis), to set him up in a "new habitat" regardless of how ideal that new place may seem on the surface would most likely cause his demise. He would have a difficult, if not impossible, time of trying to learn a brand territory in which he would know at what times of the year he could go to find sufficient food, shelter or water. If he could establish a sufficent and adequate territory before winter set in and food became scarce, he'd starve to death.

Keeping the turtle in his natural territory, even if a reduced one, is the best thing for him right now.

DP

first off...it's no longer his "natural territory" if it's on the other side of a fence where he's never lived.

secondly, I really take exception with your information. this is an ornate box turtle from west Texas we're talking about. the implication that these turtles are prone to difficulty finding resources is laughable! he'll find new resources, and the placement somewhere else would of course include making sure there were resources similar to where he came from. this is done routinely with rehabilitations where the original home range is not known or can no longer be utilized!

they learn it without your help. "impossible time" you say? reptiles have a very sufficient instinct to locate what they need, it happens all the time when new ones are born. and I think we have plenty of time left in the season yet to be worried about winter. nobody is dumping him off two months before hibernation.

just because he shows up once a year or so, doesn't mean he's not "wandering". they can range over a very wide area, and frequently do establish new range boundaries as needs and conditions change. they are much more adaptive than you think, so I don't where are you coming from?

Mick

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"When tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign foe."

James Madison

>>first off...it's no longer his "natural territory" if it's on the other side of a fence where he's never lived.
>>

......if he continuously makes appearances and is found in that yard which is the other side of the fence (at least it was possible until the new cinderblock fence was put in this past spring), please pray tell how you can possibly make the claim that he's "never" lived there??? That yard is part of his natural territory or else he would not be hanging around that area in the first place.

>>secondly, I really take exception with your information.
>>

Take exception all you want. Attempt to badger me with your irate comments all you want - I don't care. I will present my opinions as I see fit based on information that is available to me and which I believe to be factual. Really, these forums are for discussion. You can't be taking offense at anyone who chooses to present an opinion that is different from your own or else there is no discussion taking place.

>>just because he shows up once a year or so, doesn't mean he's not "wandering". they can range over a very wide area, and frequently do establish new range boundaries as needs and conditions change. they are much more adaptive than you think, so I don't where are you coming from?
>>
>>Mick
>>

A wandering turtle does not establish a territory and stay within it... they wander and don't look back - not setup shop. Hobo by the fact that he does keep coming back means he's not a wanderer. He's staying within an established territory that he is familiar with - not going off into areas unknown and not ever likely to come back through that area.

As for where I am coming from... why don't you check out some of the research that's been done on the subject. For example: Patuxent Wildlife Research Center (based in Maryland) does box turtle studies and they have one of the longest-running mark and release and tracking/population research projects in the country...going back to 1944. They are a part of the US Geological Survey. They are known for top quality wildlife studies. They even have captive breed and release of endangered species programs such as the whooping cranes.

Additionally, perhaps you should obtain a copy of the following book - one of the best to date on the natural history of box turtles. It's quite good reading.

North American Box Turtles: A Natural History
C. Kenneth Dodd, Jr.
University of Oklahoma Press, 2001
ISBN 0806132949

If you don't want to purchase the expensive but nicer hardback binding edition, there is a cheaper softbound edition available.

DP

>"......if he continuously makes appearances and is found in >that yard which is the other side of the fence (at least it >was possible until the new cinderblock fence was put in this >past spring), please pray tell how you can possibly make the >claim that he's "never" lived there??? That yard is part of >his natural territory or else he would not be hanging around >that area in the first place."

"pray tell"...you like to use that quite a bit when you are condescendingly berating people on other forums don't you? Your presence here is no surprise.

I never claimed emphatically, he "never" lived there. I said "if" [he never lived there]. And "natural territory" is a fuzzy and vague substitute for the words "range distribution" or "home range".

take exception all you want. Attempt to badger me with your >irate comments all you want - I don't care. I will present my >opinions as I see fit based on information that is available >to me and which I believe to be factual. Really, these forums >are for discussion. You can't be taking offense at anyone who >chooses to present an opinion that is different from your own >or else there is no discussion taking place."

you are imprecise, which makes for difficult rational discussion. "take exception" does not mean "take offense". When I take "offense", I will tell you so.

differing with your opinion is hardly irate or badgering.

>a wandering turtle does not establish a territory and stay >within it... they wander and don't look back - not setup shop. >Hobo by the fact that he does keep coming back means he's not >a wanderer. He's staying within an established territory that >he is familiar with - not going off into areas unknown and not >ever likely to come back through that area.

>As for where I am coming from... why don't you check out some >of the research that's been done on the subject. For example: >Patuxent Wildlife Research Center (based in Maryland) does box >turtle studies and they have one of the longest-running mark >and release and tracking/population research projects >in .the .country...going back to 1944. They are a part of the >US Geological Survey. They are known for top quality wildlife >studies. They even have captive breed and release of >endangered species programs such as the whooping cranes.

I have "checked out" such research...and you are irresponsibly using reference data which pertains not a bit to the species Terrapene ornate luteola.

"pray tell"....where might Patuxent be? In Maryland? Do they currently have any Terrapene ornate luteola range in that area? I think not. You are citing studies from a completely different species which does not even occur on that side of the country!

>Additionally, perhaps you should obtain a copy of the >following book - one of the best to date on the natural >history of box turtles. It's quite good reading.

>DP

I have many nice books, but thank you. Perhaps I could suggest a course in scientific method and proper use of references?

Mick

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"When tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign foe."

James Madison

>>"pray tell"...you like to use that quite a bit when you are condescendingly berating people on other forums don't you? Your presence here is no surprise.

hmm.. pray tell I am curious to know which other forums are you referring to? But of course, my "presence" here is no surprise - I happen to keep box turtles as well as other turtle species. This is not a private club here.

>>
I never claimed emphatically, he "never" lived there. I said "if" [he never lived there]. And "natural territory" is a fuzzy and vague substitute for the words "range distribution" or "home range".

How can you support that "if" he happens to be on the other side of a fence that he is no longer in his natural territory? There is no "if" here. He's known to have been on the other side of the fence numerous times prior to a solid fence construction that was recently constructed within the last couple of months. I am sure a lot of individuals would agree with me in that a simple wire fence is little or no impediment to a crafty box turtle. Had the solid fence structure been constructed years ago, then perhaps you would have a solid arguement in that "if" statement.

>>where might Patuxent be? In Maryland? Do they currently have any Terrapene ornate luteola range in that area? I think not. You are citing studies from a completely different species which does not even occur on that side of the country!

Why yes, Patuxent is in Maryland. And no, T.o.l. are not in that range. However, I clearly said the Patuxent group was an example of just one of those conducting box turtle studies. I did not say they were the only ones - I reiterate - I simply used them as an example. I'm sure people that if someone wanted to, they would be capable of locating research studies on the actual species that you are specifically referring to.

As for the rest, I must implore you to refrain from asking me to stop quoting you. These forums have a built in quoting feature which means people are given the option to use it should they wish to do so.

Are you having as much fun as I am ?

DP

the crux of this matter is that the information you stake your assumptions on, does not even represent the same species, much less the REGION of the country concerned.

"However, I clearly said the Patuxent group was an example of just one of those conducting box turtle studies. I did not say they were the only ones - I reiterate - I simply used them as an example. I'm sure people that if someone wanted to, they would be capable of locating research studies on the actual species that you are specifically referring to."

How irresponsible of you academically then, to represent it as patently relevant to another species. What was it offered as an example of? The fact that people conduct studies on box turtles? Heavens! Your ingenuity for uncovering the redundant is sublime, Sir!

I have loads of fun, thank you.

Mick

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"When tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign foe."

James Madison

3rd time's the charm huh. word of caution - the mods here on this site don't like it when people resort to calling other people names instead of sticking to the subject being debated; not kosher or smart yanno.

DP

Excellent point: and you should stick to the subject of T. ornata luteola and not confuse the issue by citing studies of T. c. carolina to back your opinion.
Enough already with this thread, gentlemen.
Regards to all,
Stephanie

>>Excellent point: and you should stick to the subject of T. ornata luteola and not confuse the issue by citing studies of T. c. carolina to back your opinion.

Where was it stated that this thread strictly limited to T.o.l. ? It was not limited by the original poster therefore I am within my right to use T.c.c. as a example in explaining my personal opinions/position to the original question.

DP

because mister...you entered a conversation relating to
T. ornate luteola!

That is what limits you... if you wish to be accurate with your citations of scientific studies in support of your opinion. some people have no such regard though, I am aware.
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"When tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign foe."

James Madison

>>because mister...you entered a conversation relating to
>>T. ornate luteola!
>>
>>That is what limits you... if you wish to be accurate with your citations of scientific studies in support of your opinion. some people have no such regard though, I am aware.
>>-----

Again I will state that the original poster did not limit this conversation to T.o.l. No where did the person posting the original question make any such limitations. You are the one who seems to want to limit the boundries of what is acceptable and what is not regarding another person's question/post. That person asked "What would you have done" therefore I am within my right to enter this conversation and give a personal opinion even if that opinion is based on T.c.c.

DP

OK, Yes! Then I am attempting to limit the discussion.
Limit it to what is R-E-L-E-V-A-N-T. Es tut mir leid!

Just a thought you know....that relevance might be relevant?

Your are perfectly within your "rights", as you call them, to post something even if it's not relevant...feel free. Just so long as we are all aware this "right" does not make you "right".

Nice backward progression on the defense of your opinion though. You have now moved away from supporting the validity of the information you used to formulate your opinion. Now you are simply defending your "right" to post an opinion that is merely coincidental to turtles. Your defeat is complete ahaahaheheheheheheeeehahahahahaaaahohohohohooooo!

Mick
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"When tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign foe."

James Madison

A word about the book you mentioned,

North American Box Turtles: A Natural History
C. Kenneth Dodd, Jr.
University of Oklahoma Press, 2001
ISBN 0806132949

I have this book. I keep Easterns exclusively. I find it to be loaded with useful information, but I also find it to be a somewhat limited reference for my purposes, due to the author's emphasis in T.c. bauri.

Stephanie

DP said:
>to set him up in a "new habitat" regardless of how ideal that new place may seem on the surface would most likely cause his demise. He would have a difficult, if not impossible, time of trying to learn a brand territory in which he would know at what times of the year he could go to find sufficient food, shelter or water. If he could establish a sufficent and adequate territory before winter set in and food became scarce, he'd starve to death.

>>
>>He would have a difficult, if not impossible, time of trying to learn a brand territory in which he would know at what times of the year he could go to find sufficient food, shelter or water. If he could establish a sufficent and adequate territory before winter set in and food became scarce, he'd starve to death.
>>

sigh. fingers move faster than the brain. that should be "If he couldn't establish..."

DP

DrPepper said:
He would have a difficult, if not impossible, time of trying to learn a brand territory in which he would know at what times of the year he could go to find sufficient food, shelter or water. If he could establish a sufficent and adequate territory before winter set in and food became scarce, he'd starve to death.

I tried to reply to this earlier but I used symbols that made my text vanish lol. SO!I'll try this again.

I know the curator of the Abilene TX zoo & he's been telling me basically the very same thing you've said on this subject.
The latest theory is that when they know where the berries are, they know where the best bugs are, they know where everything they need is, they have a very hard time adjusting to a new environment & can die in the wild because they've been moved. Here in my region there are no berry trees except in populated areas, they don't occur naturally. Hobo would lose his berries unless I relocated him to another populated area, what's the point of doing that?
I realize theories are not always fact but in view of the fact that an actual herpetologist has urged me to keep Hobo, I can say that I do feel guilty but I do not feel as guilty as I'd feel if Hobo were killed by a dog so therefore, it's a done deal. He's staying because I don't know what else to do with him. At least here he is in his natural territory.

PHRatz

Hobo! He's so cute! After so long, it's nice to see him finally, lol. That mean neighbor, letting the dog have him.

Hmmmmmmm after reading through the posts you have all certainly given me some food for thought.
I have felt so torn about taking him, but last summer I found him here 7 or 8 different times. 3-4 times the year before, twice the year before that. If he was here before that I didn't notice him.
His visits are increasing, I'd already seen him once this year before the dog got him.
My fence is now the only solid fence here, every one else has chain link that a turtle can walk through or under & the dog people who leave all those big dogs outside don't seem to care one way or another because after all to them it's "just a turtle."
That attitude from them is part of the reason why I feel so torn about this.
Until this point I have never kept any healthy box turtles, only the ones with problems. With the special needs turtles I never gave it a second thought because for them it was stay with me or die for sure.
A radio tracking device would be really interesting though, that's for sure!
Ok not much else to do but think some more, as I sit here daily watching new houses being built & worry..

PHRatz

Pink that's what got to me.. Carol next door said the man was watering flowers or something with a hose & stood there watching the dog beat up the turtle but didn't make a move to stop it, didn't say a word to the dog either. Just stood there like a moron.
With neighbors like that & people moving in next door on the other side soon, with more kids & more dogs..
Our old pal Doug the zoo man made me feel better about it he said keep him or he'll be in the dog's mouth again. Our vet said it too, keep him. What to do, what to do.. agonize over it some more for while I suppose.

PHRatz

There's nothing to think about. Keep him. I would. I would not want him being chewed up by a dog & I wouldn't want him to be "adopted" by the neighborhood kids who probably would NOT be a better turtle keeper than you. With more & more developing going on in your area, the more cars, dogs & kids there will be. Simple as that. Sure you can let him be. But in reality, do you honest believe he can survive much longer without running into a dog, kid & or meet up with a car. Let's face it, eventually, your area will be just a very busy place. It is inevitable. Unless you live next to land that can NOT be developed like a preserve & where your new friend has a guaranteed save haven - I rather take him & make sure he has a good life. Sure, You'll get people who will disagree with you keeping it & insist you let it go, But in cases where the area is being developed - I say, take care of him.
I have at least a dozen boxies who have cracked shells being hit by a car in my enclosure. They were given to me because the people who found them said that the area they were picked up from is just too congested. Right now, they are all healed up & content. They are so content, they are thriving & breeding. I can also say that I don't feel the least bit guilty. If you feel that guilty, you can always try to find a preserve near you & go that path. Whichever you decide, and from after reading your posts - I'll give you my vote whichever path you take.

Thanks for the vote Turtle88. As I've said I feel guilty but the more I think about it, the more I feel like I'd never forgive myself if he was killed by a dog when I know I could have prevented it.
Being sent on his way in a populated area where he's in danger from humans & dogs is NOT the natural life he was born to live. Humans & dogs have encroached on his territory, he can't stop that but we can step in to help him.
So that's it.. I like getting a lot of opinions but in the end I follow my inner voice & do what I think is best so that's it. He is now home.

PHRatz

Actually, you made me smile! It really makes me feel good he has a fine home. Good luck with him.

Glad I could make you smile Turtle.

I watched him come out of his little house yesterday evening & walk the lawn. He doesn't walk around the fence line he roams around the lawn instead & he seems to know the spots where he wants to sit for a while, then he'll walk some more. At dusk when it's time to go to bed, he'll go back to his little house. He seems settled in to me, I'm happy for him.

PHRatz

do you have any plants he can forage on?
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My Site
1.2.1 Terrapene Carolina Triunguis
0.1 Nymphicus hollandicus
1.1 Melopsittacus undulatus
1.0 American Cocker Spaniels
1.0 American Short Hair? Cat
1.1 Rouen Ducks

Rouen to answer your question about plants he can forage, yes we do have them. We have the berry trees, we have spineless cactus we've been growing for the tortoise since 2003 that hopefully this year will produce cactus berries.
Because we have a sulcata we only use organic fertilizer inside the fence, no herbicides or pesticides. We have an abundance of native plants now, which are what we used to call weeds .
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PHRatz