Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is there anybody out there who breeds these? I have kept garters many, many times before, but never for the long term. After seeing the pics of the San Francisco garter & the California red-sided garter in the latest Reptile magazine issue, I have decided that I MUST have one of these! lol
Thanks for your help.

-Andrew

After seeing the pics of the San Francisco garter & the California red-sided garter in the latest Reptile magazine issue, I have decided that I MUST have one of these! lol

As far as the SF garters go, you will have to move to Europe--they're illegal to keep in the states (but feel free to run over one in your car or build a house on top of one).
-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Argh! Thats ridiculous! Before you know it we wont even be allowed to keep leopard geckos.

Thanks,
Andrew

The SF garter snakes are illegal because they're highly endangered. Still, they're so gorgeous, I wish we could get permits for CB members of that species.
It's actually quite funny. SF zoo just got some in, (6 I believe) and they had to order them from Europe.
Yup... I'm gonna be searching for a cb red sided garter.
-----
0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

>>Is there anybody out there who breeds these? I have kept garters many, many times before, but never for the long term. After seeing the pics of the San Francisco garter & the California red-sided garter in the latest Reptile magazine issue, I have decided that I MUST have one of these! lol
>>Thanks for your help.
>>
>> -Andrew

Yeah, like Chris said, the SF garters (T. s. tetrataenia) are federally protected as an Endangered Species. The European animals were bred from zoo stock that were released to individuals in Europe. Cali red-sideds (T. s.infernalis) are not protected however. The two are closely related, with at least one researcher wanting to reclassify the SF garter as the redsided subspecies..... I even wondered if selective breeding couldn't reproduce the SF garter, using only Cali redsideds, and just selecting for reduced banding, resulting in a "striped T. s. infernalis" lol, but of course that's just speculation that it could even be done, and would create quite the legal quagmire if it could be done, lol.

Go for the California red sided. They are very pretty animals in their own right. I believe Scott Felzer breeds these, but I'm not entirely sure....

-----
Lisa
Living Earth Environmental Education
@__/ __/ __ / __==< :>--

There are some legal breeders of the California Red-Sided Garters and with a little patience you will come across them. Be careful about the location of your source. California, Oregon, Washington and many other states have laws that prohibit the sale of indigenous species whether they are captive bred or not. The reason is the frequency of unethical dealers who catch wild caught animals and sell them as captive bred. This often devastates local populations. This is also why the federally protected San Francisco Garter can not be possessed in the United States unless you are a licensed zoo or researcher. California does not issue permits to captive breed any of its Garter snake species and no native Garter species may be sold in or from California. If you are in California there is a possession limit. The laws are strict but important. Unfortunately for ethical keepers the laws will continue to get more and more conservative because the hobby fails to police itself.
-----
Randy
Firehouse Herps

Randy, to the best of your knowledge, would it be possible (and legal) for a California resident to drive out of California, purchase an ethically and legally captive bred CA red-sided garter and then drive back in? Would any paperwork have to be done for that?
If so, I'll have to plan a road trip... If not, I'll just have to drool over the reptiles magazine photo and pine...
Thanks.
-----
0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

California law is written to include the word "importation" among prohibited activities concerning native species. I would assume this is to attempt to close a loop hole that unscrupulous people would exploit. Conservation laws can be extremely difficult to enforce so they tend to be conservative. If you are willing to take a road trip out of California to purchase them why not consider a road trip to try and collect one? I generally advocate the acquisition of captive bred animals but if your heart is set on a particular subspecies that is not otherwise available to you collection may be indicated. I do not believe Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis is currently protected in California but you should consult current legislation as the status may have changed. They are protected in Ventura County and the counties south of there but you may still be able to collect them in N Calif. though the possession limit is no doubt 2 or less. The Two-Striped Garter of S Calif. has been placed on the protected list due in part to several years of drought impacting reproduction levels so T s infernalis may have likewise been impacted. I am referencing a version of the law that is a couple of years old. Laws change very slowly but they do change. If they have changed you can probably expect them to be stricter.

The best thing you can do is consult current Fish and Game regulations and/or call to talk to an agent about what you can collect/possess and what you cannot. They are typically very helpful. You may be interested in the Common Red-Sided, T s parietalis. They are very similar to the Calif. Red-Sided but with a dark head and often not quite as striking. Wild caught specimens may not be as striking as captive breds either though. Another colorful Garter is the eastern Black-Neck, T cyrtopsis ocellatus. There are others as well as different morphs (albino or other unusual genetic manifestations) on the market so with a bit of research you may find others that interest you as much. For me research and self education is indispensable to the enjoyment of my hobby.

Side note: There is still some discrepancy as to scientific classifications of the animals you are inquiring about. At one point the Oregon red-Sided was included with the Calif. Red-Sided under the name T s concinnus (name otherwise used to indicate the Oregon Red-Sided) and the San Francisco Garter was changed from T s tetrataenia to T s infernalis. I have found both breakdowns of the Thamnophis sirtalis species to be in recent use so be aware. Stebbins uses the breakdown you were using and I believe Calif. Dept of F&G uses it as well.

Information of academic interest: The Genus name is always capitalized while the species and subspecies designations are always lower case, thus it would be Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis. If genus and species are already indicated in a particular paragraph or essay they may be subsequently indicated by initials but the subspecific name is always spelled out. If no subspecific name is being reference then the specific name must be spelled out. Thus after writing Thamnophis sirtalis once you can write T sirtalis, or after writing Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis you may write T s infernalis.

I hope this is helpful and interesting.
-----
Randy
Firehouse Herps

Hi Randy, sorry about that time lag. Thanks for that thoughtful and extensive reply! I checked fish and game. Apparently collection is possible, but I'm sort of squirmy about catching a critter that will hardly be used for education and can't be used for a captive breeding project.
Man, I hate it when law and ethics diverge.
Thanks for the species recommendations. Darn shame garters are often underrated. The way they move and carry theirselves is as striking as any coloration. I'll have to keep an eye out to see what other types I find that drop my jaw.
-----
0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

I just picked up a cb adult pair of infernalis from Casey Lazik. Take a look at this guy. Check out the classifieds.

(Casey I hope you don't mind me using the pic)

-----
"Nothing happens in contradiction to nature, only to what we know of it."