Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I HAVE KNOWN JIM FOR 10 YEARS AND HE RESPECTS THE FACT THAT THERE ARE MANY RESPONSIBLE KEEPERS OF VENOMOUS ANIMALS.I, MYSELF HAVE BEEN KEEPING VENOMOUS SNAKES FOR 25 YEARS.MY PASSION AND SAFE KEEPING OF THE ANIMALS HAS ALWAYS BEEN FIRST AND FOREMOST.WE CAN DEBATE THE ISSUES OF BANS AND RESTRICTIONS TO DEATH,BUT LET'S FACE IT WE LIVE IN CHANGING TIMES. THESE ANIMALS ARE MORE READILY AVAILABLE THAN EVER AND ARE BECOMING "PETS" TO THOSE WHICH HAVE NO BUSINESS KEEPING THEM......ALL THIS BEING SAID IT ISN'T MUCH DIFFERENT THAN KIDS CARRYING GUNS TO SCHOOL OR A PIT BULL ATTACKING A CHILD, PUBLIC OPINION ( NOT ALWAYS FACTUAL) WILL DRIVE LEGISLATION.WITHOUT BECOMING TOO POLITICAL JIM HARRISON DOES KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PASSIONATE RESPONSIBLE KEEPER,ONE THAT HAS STUDIED THESES ANIMALS SINCE WE WERE VERY YOUNG AND THE MOCHO ,IRRESPONSIBLE KEEPER THAT ONLY HAS THE NEED FOR ATTENTION OR TO FILL SOME VOID OF MASCULINITY.

I do not know Mr.Harrison. How ever I did see a TV special on Animal planet where as maybe unintentionally, Mr Harrison and his brother made it look like we, the private sector were a buch of idiots not able to handle the animals we keep. Having some kid find a Gaboon Viper in his garage did not help either.They also neglected to say that never has their been a case of a neighbor or bistander bitten by one of our(private keepers)snakes. The long and the short of it is that the government is already putting the clamps on us in every way they can, and you would think that someone like Mr Harrison would have a little more compassion for his fellow Hot keepers. I have been keeping and breeding venomous snakes and lizards for about fifteen years and I have never had an animal get out or hurt anyone. I am also close friends with George Van Horn and he is very supportive of us the private keepers and breeders as long as we are safe and responsible.
Thank you,
HorridumAngeli

HorridumAngeli's Beaded Lizard Web Site

I have no idea why there needs to be any people needing to deffend Jim Harrison. He should in no way have to justify his response to whatever regulations are proposed.

Most of those programs also say those things to keep people from getting the idea of buying a venomous snake as a cool pet. What some people see is an attack at snake keeping. They really are targeting the irresponsible...it is peoples sensitive emotions on the subject which is blinding them from seeing it.

When you saw JIMS BROTHER removing the gaboon from the garage on national geographic's "natures nightmares: snake bite" program, you saw what is the problem with THIS HOBBY not problems with the professional side. Blame the tv audiance if you want, because this is what they like to see.

And the fact is, that is what happens. I know it happened today actually. And what do ya know...it was a gaboon viper.

I am not going to say any more about this as it is not my place, but maybe someone else will share more about the incident I am talking about.

I will just say it is the exact thing that makes these bans more beneficial than a persons "right" to keep venomous snakes.

It is sad that I am someone who hates every strike against this hobby more than just about anyone...I love snakes and I love to keep snakes. But when I see how stupid people are, I know I can't blame Jim Harrison for it.

I think every state should have a permit system, but since this is not really a federally protected interest, the law makes it very easy to pass regulations for public safety. LUCKILY there have not been incidents where people were bitten by gaboon vipers...

As far as I'm concerned, if he knows the difference, then he should have supported a permit system instead of throwing all hot keepers under the bus by getting behind a ban.

Bill Huseth
-----
Venomous snakes---best hobby on earth!
Bill Huseth

Let me say that fist and foremost, I don't know Mr. Harrison....I've heard of him, read about him in Reptiles magazine, etc., but I have never met him personally. Therefore, I make no impeachments as to his character or husbandry techniques.

My point is that while he does bring up valid areas in need of attention in his official letter, his overall unequivocal conclusion in support of a ban on the private keeping of venomous reptiles is detrimental and contradictory to the very practice of increasing awareness and conservation of these animals. Granted, there are a ton of people out there keeping these animals that have no business doing so....agreed. Granted, when a private party is bitten and a zoo's antiserum stock is used to save his/her life, it is a black eye for the entire community....valid points each. However, the solution is NOT to cower down to legislators and turn a cold shoulder on the very same people that share the same passion that you do.

I'm not attacking Mr. Harrison the individual..I am however calling him out on his conclusion and asking that he demonstrate how a ban on the keeping of these animals damages anyone other than the law abiding, responsible keepers. Morons will be morons, and they'll keep these animals in cardboard boxes regardless of whether it is legal to do so or not. How exactly does a ban on the private keeping of venomous snakes increase the public's awareness and appreciation of them? How exactly does a ban on the private keeping of these animals increase public safety any measurable degree, given that those that really want a Gaboon viper can get one anyway regardless of the legalities involved? How exactly is a ban going to ensure that those that have no business keeping these animals don't? The short answer is....it won't to all of these. All a ban will do is ensure that the individuals that have a respect for the law (regardless of whether they agree with it or not) are kept from keeping them. Given that these probably aren't the "targets" of such a ban, can SOMEONE please explain how a ban will bring us any closer to the goal of reaching the "targets"?

No, Mr. Harrison you are not accountable for the many idiots that populate the hobby/profession....you ARE however accountable for you and your organizations' stance on issues that effect us all, and in that regard sir, it is my sincere opinion that you have failed miserably.

-AzAtrox

Dead-center bullseye! Great post!
-----
Venomous snakes---best hobby on earth!
Bill Huseth

Done responsibly there is not a zoo in this country that is against private keeping. Most couldn't care less as long as their serum stocks/keepers are not endangered.
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The bottom line is that Jim runs a top knotch operation and is one of the most accommodating people I know in terms of assisting the private community (not to mention facilities like mine). Can we blame him for supporting a ban on the private keeping of venomous herps? Heck no! Knowing Jim and Kirsten, they most likely respond to MANY calls every year due to irresponsible ownership (and like me, I would assume many of those calls come at very inconvenient times). They have to put their hineys on the line for the sake of pathetically irresponsible owners. Additionally, KRZ maintains their own supply of A/V; most private keepers don't. My feeling is that if you can't afford to keep your own supply of A/V you shouldn't own a venomous herp. I don't care if its a little pigmy rattler. It's too bad that SO MANY bad apples have spoiled it for the very few capable, professional and and responsible ADULTS who keep venomous herps on the private level; there should be some system in place to protect them and I am confident that there will at some point. But, every time we read about an incident involving an irresponsible owner keeping a venomous herp in a manner that endangers himself/herself or, even worse, the general public, it is just another nail on our coffin and right now, there are no more room for nails on our coffin! Lawmakers could care less about the rights of private venomous reptile ownership of individuals...do you blame them?

As a husband and father, I would personally have a real problem if some suspicious looking person moved next door with his/her pet cobra, gaboon viper, etc. I would have a real problem with that. Hypocritical? Perhaps. But, since I know how many venomous keepers keep their animals, my opinions are justified.

With all of this being said, as a curator of a reptile facility that maintains a sizable venomous collection, I am all in favor of a system that allows for the private ownership of venomous herps. The key is to come up with a system by which we can weed out the many yahoos who have no business keeping them and provide an avenue by which responsible and capable private individuals with the proper expertise, experience and resources are able to enjoy their hobby. A very stringent (and I mean stringent to the point where it is VERY difficult to obtain and applicants must be able to demonstrate their expertise along with credible references; and, go ahead and tack on a large permit fee....that should be no big deal since these same people will be shelling out lots of cash for the A/V that will be required to keep this permit!...and that's just for starters) permit system could be the answer but most state departments/DNR's want nothing to do with adding any additional expenses or staff time (even if the permit has a fee....it still will most likely not cover all direct costs unless its tied into a broader permitting process). I do hope something can be worked out but the current trends show a bleak picture for private venomous herp owners....and we can only blame ourselves.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>I HAVE KNOWN JIM FOR 10 YEARS AND HE RESPECTS THE FACT THAT THERE ARE MANY RESPONSIBLE KEEPERS OF VENOMOUS ANIMALS.I, MYSELF HAVE BEEN KEEPING VENOMOUS SNAKES FOR 25 YEARS.MY PASSION AND SAFE KEEPING OF THE ANIMALS HAS ALWAYS BEEN FIRST AND FOREMOST.WE CAN DEBATE THE ISSUES OF BANS AND RESTRICTIONS TO DEATH,BUT LET'S FACE IT WE LIVE IN CHANGING TIMES. THESE ANIMALS ARE MORE READILY AVAILABLE THAN EVER AND ARE BECOMING "PETS" TO THOSE WHICH HAVE NO BUSINESS KEEPING THEM......ALL THIS BEING SAID IT ISN'T MUCH DIFFERENT THAN KIDS CARRYING GUNS TO SCHOOL OR A PIT BULL ATTACKING A CHILD, PUBLIC OPINION ( NOT ALWAYS FACTUAL) WILL DRIVE LEGISLATION.WITHOUT BECOMING TOO POLITICAL JIM HARRISON DOES KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PASSIONATE RESPONSIBLE KEEPER,ONE THAT HAS STUDIED THESES ANIMALS SINCE WE WERE VERY YOUNG AND THE MOCHO ,IRRESPONSIBLE KEEPER THAT ONLY HAS THE NEED FOR ATTENTION OR TO FILL SOME VOID OF MASCULINITY.
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Here is a major part of the problem - personal accountablity both for owners AND the press. Never having owned a hot herp (and being new to snakes in general) my view on owner's rights was always influenced heavily by the media (it is a bad thing, I know but it is the truth). Any time an incident happens involving a captive hot (or python, boa, etc) the news plays it up. Responsible owners (such as are in this forum) get little to no press. As with any pet there is an amount of personal responsiblity that is taken by the owner. Should the government be involved? That's debatable. Mr. Carmichael's views have been well thought out and clearly show that there are those that should keep hots, but I bet with all of the hard work he has done, if a 6 foot python got loose down the street from him the news would jump onto the story, and if they found a way to bring him into the story as a "what if his had gotten loose" the media wouldn't lose any sleep about possibly tarnishing his reputation and hard work just to get a little extra pop into the story.

I did some research after reading the story a couple of months back in one of the reptile magazines about herps and laws. They had information in the article had gotten from the Animal Protection Institute - http://www.api4animals.org/380.htm . After a QUICK glance at their information, I noticed one incident that occured in my area that is actually listed twice on their "captive reptile incidents". (see 08/09/95 Atlanta GA and 08/00/95 East Point, GA). Unless I am mistaken or am looking at the wrong calendar THERE IS NO 8-00-95 and East Point is Atlanta! These types of reports are what people quote (as the reptile magazine did) when they discuss the laws. Some of the incidents were not even pertaining to captured/pet reptiles. If we want fair (or an attempt of a fair) laws we need to push to have reports like these corrected - keep the media held to the same personal responsibilty that owners such as Mr. Carmichael hold themselves to. This is the type of information being used to mold the legislative views. When are own publications are feeding out these lies and we allow it, how will we ever find a fair resolution?
-----
Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

It is extremely difficult to hold the press accountable; they have certain freedoms that make it very difficult to hold them to...that's life. That's why the responsibility falls on the hobbyists and unfortunately, there are far too many irresponsible owners. One of our primary objectives is to educate the public. We started a brand new conservation education program about rattlesnakes called "The Grass Is Rattling"; a grass roots crotaline conservation program to teach students about the positive virtues of rattlesnakes. The program even provides an opportunity for students to touch a safely tubed rattlesnake. The entire herp community needs to do their part to educate those that need to be educated. I'm still holding hope but for every bad thing that we see in the press, it negates the many other positive things that we are doing to educate the public.

>>Here is a major part of the problem - personal accountablity both for owners AND the press. Never having owned a hot herp (and being new to snakes in general) my view on owner's rights was always influenced heavily by the media (it is a bad thing, I know but it is the truth). Any time an incident happens involving a captive hot (or python, boa, etc) the news plays it up. Responsible owners (such as are in this forum) get little to no press. As with any pet there is an amount of personal responsiblity that is taken by the owner. Should the government be involved? That's debatable. Mr. Carmichael's views have been well thought out and clearly show that there are those that should keep hots, but I bet with all of the hard work he has done, if a 6 foot python got loose down the street from him the news would jump onto the story, and if they found a way to bring him into the story as a "what if his had gotten loose" the media wouldn't lose any sleep about possibly tarnishing his reputation and hard work just to get a little extra pop into the story.
>>
>>I did some research after reading the story a couple of months back in one of the reptile magazines about herps and laws. They had information in the article had gotten from the Animal Protection Institute - http://www.api4animals.org/380.htm . After a QUICK glance at their information, I noticed one incident that occured in my area that is actually listed twice on their "captive reptile incidents". (see 08/09/95 Atlanta GA and 08/00/95 East Point, GA). Unless I am mistaken or am looking at the wrong calendar THERE IS NO 8-00-95 and East Point is Atlanta! These types of reports are what people quote (as the reptile magazine did) when they discuss the laws. Some of the incidents were not even pertaining to captured/pet reptiles. If we want fair (or an attempt of a fair) laws we need to push to have reports like these corrected - keep the media held to the same personal responsibilty that owners such as Mr. Carmichael hold themselves to. This is the type of information being used to mold the legislative views. When are own publications are feeding out these lies and we allow it, how will we ever find a fair resolution?
>>-----
>>Bryan, Atlanta GA
>>
>>1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
>>1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
>>0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
>>1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
>>0-1-0 Wife
>>2-0-0 Kids
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I totally agree. It took several years for my wife to "deprogram" me (you never know their doing it to you until its too late, at least it is that way with my wife) when it came to snakes. She worked in a zoo education department for 2 years before I agreed to touch a ball python, now I have one happily (I know, snakes don't have human emotions, though he seems to smile alot) rescued ball slithering around a cage in my bedroom. Very true, we can not control what the media says and does, but we should at the sametime make every effort to not let our own publications shoot us in the foot. By our own I mean reptile related publications. I am not saying publication should be for or against and chosing sides on issues; just that we should call them out when they are printing incorrect statements or statistics can potentially hurt the herp community as a whole. Irresponsible reporting like that reflects poorly on constrictors, hots, and all other reptiles at the same time. I apologize if anyone is offended by the "irresponsible reporting" label but lets face it, a quick look at the report's listing itself shows that the information contained should at least be deemed as questionable and suspect. I for one would never reference a source that has even one incomplete or impossible date in it let alone blatent multiple listings of the same event. And am I wrong on this or would you consider a child bring home a coral snake as a pet reptile and report it as such?

I have read your postings for a while now and am extremely impressed with your views and stands. Educating the public is critical and I congradulate you for the work that you are doing. If all reptile owners did a quarter as much as you we would not have to worry about (or worry as much about) legislation problems in the first place.
-----
Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

What happened to FREE Country. If you can demonstrate that you are responsible and have the facilities to maintain certain animals you should have the RIGHT to obtain a permitt PERIOD !
The baby sitting in the USA is getting WAY out of hand.
HorridumAngeli

Careful there. I'm getting the razz by the "nanny state" oriented types on this forum for expressing Constitutionalist views relative to reptile keeping even though I read the TOS and see nothing against expressing such views there.

I feel the problem is not with the snakes, but with the irresponsible owners...that being said a permit system is fine. The problem is that no one can afford the ridiculuous insurance policies that they make you buy unless you're already a millionaire. Also being required to neuter/spay your animals or being forced to have them mutilated with microchip implants is out of the question and absurd. Fight for your freedom, no BANS!

OK on the same token should someone who has ownership of a car be required to carry insurance on it? Even with no record of past accidents you still required to carry it (at least in some states) "Just In Case" there is an accident. On the same line, if you do cause an accident and do not have insurance who should be held responsible for the injuried's care? Yes I know a snake is not a car but there is a responsibility issue involved. You can be one of the most reponsible hot herp owners in the world and something can still go wrong. As an owner should you be responsible for any damage done by the escaped herp? Who should supply/pay for the anti-venom? If someone can can pay for a corvette but not to insure it, should they still be allowed to own and drive?
-----
Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

Glad to see someone besides me is looking at the Pro freedom Constitutionalist view of this subject.

I will answer this in sections, if you think I am brash and outspoken all I can say is so did my professors, "but in a good way" so dont take it personally.

I HAVE KNOWN JIM FOR 10 YEARS AND HE RESPECTS THE FACT THAT THERE ARE MANY RESPONSIBLE KEEPERS OF VENOMOUS ANIMALS.I, MYSELF HAVE BEEN KEEPING VENOMOUS SNAKES FOR 25 YEARS.MY PASSION AND SAFE KEEPING OF THE ANIMALS HAS ALWAYS BEEN FIRST AND FOREMOST.

Than why has he loosed an arrow at "responsible keepers" through espousing his opinion on national tv?
Has he overseen your last ten years of work?
Should we assume therefore that you will be on the list of "approved"keepers because you have known someone that, through one connection or another, has gotten on a widely viewed tv program and portrayed the keeping of venomous snakes as foolhardy by all but "qualified zoos"?

WE CAN DEBATE THE ISSUES OF BANS AND RESTRICTIONS TO DEATH,BUT LET'S FACE IT WE LIVE IN CHANGING TIMES. THESE ANIMALS ARE MORE READILY AVAILABLE THAN EVER AND ARE BECOMING "PETS" TO THOSE WHICH HAVE NO BUSINESS KEEPING THEM......

The times they are a changing, but should we just go quietly into the night?
And shouldnt "readily available" be the place to start regulation in terms of all the fly-by-night importers and dealers who operate out of their basement, butcher snakes to make them "non-venomous", field collect 100 atrox, 35banded geckos, 25tarantulas, 60deserthairy scorpions and a partridge in a pair tree to make a buck?
There are more than enough legitimate dealers and importers to satisfy the hobby. Now factor in the captive bred specimens from both the public and private sector and you can see that most any venomous snake/lizard in the world can be had, there is no need for this unregulated, mass importation, clearing house approach. Weed out the people who are in this to make $ no matter the consequences to the general public, unscrupulous collectors to venomoid producers come to mind.
Thats not to say we should ban the ability to import just regulate it alittle more, which is saying ALOT.

ALL THIS BEING SAID IT ISN'T MUCH DIFFERENT THAN KIDS CARRYING GUNS TO SCHOOL OR A PIT BULL ATTACKING A CHILD, PUBLIC OPINION ( NOT ALWAYS FACTUAL) WILL DRIVE LEGISLATION.

Owning a venomous snake has its dangers, to compare them to guns and pitbulls is a cliche, considering how prominently those two have been documented by the media in the last decade. Guns are HIGHLY regulated, pitbulls are becoming so. There are also FAR MORE guns and pitbulls than venomous snakes in this country. The ability to buy a venomous snake should not be unlike buying a gun, there should be a "safety course" "venomous training" if you will, a proficiency level which is attained through COMMITMENT and DEDICATION.

WITHOUT BECOMING TOO POLITICAL JIM HARRISON DOES KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PASSIONATE RESPONSIBLE KEEPER,ONE THAT HAS STUDIED THESES ANIMALS SINCE WE WERE VERY YOUNG AND THE MOCHO ,IRRESPONSIBLE KEEPER THAT ONLY HAS THE NEED FOR ATTENTION OR TO FILL SOME VOID OF MASCULINITY.

Well Jim and I have never met so thats a tough one.

Legislation doesnt differentiate between the whackos and responsible people, it is driven by who is doing what favor for whom and popular opinion. Based on what Ive seen though, public opinion is being influenced by "yellow journalism" which is resulting in bad legislation.

As far as hot keepers keeping antivenon, Im sure most would if they could obtain it.

If I sound like a smart A$$ its only because Ive seen the great changes in this hobby; from LONG before the internet until now and I agree there are MANY problems that need to be fixed, and fixed soon.

These are the ramblings of a guy who some of you know and some of you dont, Ive never have been too much of a "social bee" in this hobby from the standpoint of knowing who does what all the time or who is popular. Im a biologist working on a a masters program, my interest in reptiles is purely academic/pleasure and secondary to my "real job". Heck I dont even work with venomous snakes in captivity, some mexican beadeds but thats it.
But I will drop some names, as that seems to be the only way to show to folks who dont know ME what experience I have.
I've personally got alittle over 30 years experience with reptiles (including venomous), from when Bill Haast was paying 50 cents an inch for pygmies and $2 a foot for Indigos, to when Joe Slowinski and I were sitting near an oreganus den in Marin County talking about his trip to Mynmar, until now when I tell UPRR how to avoid killing MDT's on their project sites in the desert.
Ive got scientific collecting permits, MOUs, been on a regular tv show leading a discussion on C.oreganus, helped the BBC with a project, volunteered at 3 different AZA accredited institutions in CA and provided biological consulting for major legislative EIS's. Im not "known" like the plethora of guys you see on animal planet but I know what experience I have and the positive impacts Ive had in terms of conservation and education, most of the work is published in the library of congress, go and read Mr. Harrison, go and see one of the "responsible keepers" who may be negatively affected by what really appears to me as another ploy to control the citizenry and give only those with the connections to work at zoos and other institutions the joy of working with one the worlds most fascinating group of animals.

Our administration and all that it oversees has in my mind become organized crime, big corporations and prominent figures are the crime bosses of our time, the "families" are the different parties we elect. We have only ourselves to blame in the end, for electing them and for ignoring the real problems in this hobby.

Here are the real facts. Over 5 million people are attacked by dogs in this country every year. 800,000 need medical attention due to the severity of the bite. These are due to irresponsible dog keepers. There are nearly 6 and a half million car accidents each year, with over 40,000 resulting in death. These are due to irresponsible drivers. There are nearly 7000 venomous snake bites in this country every year. Very few are caused by irresponsible herp keepers. Most are accidental, occuring in a natural setting. Less than 10 result in death. Why are dogs and automobiles not being banned? There are many thousands of other things that kill more people each year than venomous reptiles. They don't ban those things. Chances are that you are many times more more likely to be injured or killed by an ordinary every day activity than you are to be injured by a snake bite. Now those are facts.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html
http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/stats.html
http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/uvahealth/peds_poison/snake.cfm

Before we get into the subjects of this post I want to explain California Law regarding permit restricted animals better than it has been described by anyone so far.

1. Basically California law places permit restricted animals into two catagories:

Detramental animal:
All front fanged snakes except for the native rattlesnakes and all rear fanged snakes of proven human lethality, Heloderm Lizards, Crocodilians and Snapping Turtles are the main herps placed here.

Welfare (Endangered/Threatened/CITES) animal:
The main herps here are the Desert Tortoise, The Gila Monster (also Detramental), The San Francisco Garter Snake, The Alameda Striped Racer, The Blunt Nosed Leopard Lizard and other endangered/threatened species or CITES list herps.

Basically to keep any of the animals in either of these catagories one has to have a permit FOR EACH SPACIFIC SPECIES being kept, (there are no general venomous or general exotic animal permits like there are in other permit states.) with fees based on weather someone is breeding animals or merely keeping animals without breeding. One also has to have 1000 hours of experience WITH EACH SPECIES a permit is being applied for from a STATE LICENSED ZOO, ANIMAL PARK OR AQUARIUM. (No private mentor or animal dealer experience allowed.)

Now here is my little questions for you based on the above. Michael Jackson keeps several dangerous and endangered exotic animals (no hots that I know of, mainly mammals) at his Neverland Ranch. No matter what you think of his guilt ot innocense in the recently concluded trial the questions is are as follows.

Do you believe that Michael Jackson has the LICENSED ZOO, ANIMAL PARK OR AQUARIUM experience, and the maturity required for the permits to keep the type of animals he keeps at Neverland or do you think he might have got his permits through Fish and Game Department CORRUPTION based on his MONEY AND CELEBRITY.

If the answer to question number 1 is corruption through his celebrity and money then the second question is what good does a permit system based on experience do when one of the strictest ones in the country is being gotten around by celebrities with enough cash to make Fish And Game permit issuers look the other way on the experience issue.

This brings me back to my original proposal. The keeping of animals should be looked upon as a right like any other property keeping and ownership but with the full brunt of the homicide and assault with a deadly weapon laws put upon the irresponsible and inexperienced keepers.

Heloderma suspectum(Gila Monster) is regulated by the state of California,Heloderma horridum(Beaded Lizard)is not. Just for your information. They don't want inscrupulous keepers going over to AZ and collecting those desert gems, then selling them for a profit. Which I can understand.
HorridumAngeli
Horridumangeli's Beaded Lizard Web Site

There are two reasons why MJ has his zoo, well three really.

1. He employs a biologist or zoologist to work at Neverland, these "professionals" are the ones actually permitted to maintain the animals and recieve the permits for them as such. "Supposedly" they have years of experience with each species that is maintained at Neverland.

2. Neverland is considered a "public institution" ie, he displays his animals to the public (hes never invited me over though). As such, he is permitted to "display" the animals he has.

3. Hes a celebrity of course! Dont you know he,and other celebs, are the aristocracy of our time? They can do whatever they want, doesnt matter what country your in, they have the $$$$ and common joes like many of us dont - plain and simple.

If those animals are on his property (Neverland) than Michael Jackson is the one in possession of them and the one who needs the permits for them according to the way I read the law at least. In my opinion Mr. Jackson has shown publicly on several occasions that he is too inexperienced, incompetent and immature to safely keep and mantain a BEAGLE or a BOX TURTLE let alone the kind of dangerous exotic animals kept at Neverland. That the Neverland zoo is allowed to exist destroys the integraty and indeed even the PURPOSE (to weed out incompetent and irresponsible keepers of dangerous animals) of the California permit system.

No matter how you look at it, he has money that most people dont have. Whether he should or should not keep them is a completely different story. If you think there is anything government wise that can be done to affect his animal keeping, perhaps you didnt watch this last court case.

Like I said before, MJ employs the specialists who are given the permits, I discussed this with CDFG earlier this year. Of course it also has to do with his celebrity status.

Than this means I can keep a TAIPAN with no more experience than a toddler in his "terrible twos" if I can wave enough Federal Reserve Notes around to attract the attention of a corrupt "specialist" to apply for the permit in my stead gained from prancing around on a stage wearing a single rhinstone glove while yelling and screaming like a crazy idiot.

Sounds like a cop out and corruption to me.