Reptile & Amphibian Forums

As of right now i only have an eastern king but would like to get something different. Im thinking about getting a hog snake but dont know if i should go with an eastern or southern? Whats the diff? Which one would be better for a beginner with hogs? Thanks

Johnny

I only have time for a short answer:
Do a search on this forum and you'll see the difficulties most people have with getting their hogs to eat. I believe that the techniques required often goes beyond the means and experience of beginners. These issues are amplified when applied to Easterns and Southerns. A learning curve for a beginner only makes matters worse.

Ideal beginner snake: king or corn snake
Ideal beginner: WESTERN

PS: ALL animals get sick. When considering getting any herp, you have to expect a vet visit every so often so budget at least $150 for a visit.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

The easterns and southerns are fond of toads. So, if you have a supply of toads then either should do well.
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Steve W.

"If you have a supply of toads or frogs".
This depletes the wild supply. If you really want a hog, stick to westerns or mexicans. They eat f/t mice, and thus don't affect any wild populations. You can get westerns in a number of color varieties (i breed red westerns myself) - i.e. there are a number on the classified section of kingsnake, or at www.albinohog.com - Evans in Lubbock, Texas has a number of different varieties (he also lists on kingsnake).

Thx,

Will

you can not have westerns in IL and mexicans are to much. Now what shouls I do

>"If you have a supply of toads or frogs".
This depletes the wild supply. <

Hardly..lol
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Steve W.

You think that this has NO affect on the wild supply. Wild animals already have enough trouble with loss of habitat, pollution, and introduced species to name a few problems. Why do we need to further encourage destruction of WC animals? If you can't get your eastern to eat mice or some other viable food, you shouldn't get one. Westerns are just as neat, come in a variety of color phases, and are CAPTIVE BRED. You may laugh at the thought of you taking 5 or 10 toads from a habitat at a time, but when you multiply that by the number of people doing it, you not only take adults of the species out of the population, you reduce the fecundity of future populations.

>>>"If you have a supply of toads or frogs".
>>This depletes the wild supply. <
>>
>>
>>Hardly..lol
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>>Steve W.

I would have to say that is a pretty ignorant statement.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

>>>I would have to say that is a pretty ignorant statement.
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Steve W.

Sorry I don't agree with every point you make but. My point is that if the snake is "wild caught" and you are feeding it what it eats in the "wild" then there is nothing wrong with collecting it's natural prey item. After all, this is what it would be eating anyway.
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Steve W.

The basic premise of your statement is certainly correct and indisputable, however it is still logically flawed.

The lives of individual animals are governed by "natural selection" and selective pressures. Working under a number of assumptions, it is easy to assume that hognoses will undoubtably eat toads that are easiest to catch. Of course one of the broad assumptions with predators is that they consume the weak and inferior. When you go out to catch toads to feed a pet snake, you are completely bypassing the natural selection process put on the toads AND your snake. Most people don't want to mess with catching a lot of little toads, it is human nature to go for the biggest and most energetic. Of course those individuals tend to be of breeding status and most notably females. And of course your snake is completely exempted from any of the selective pressures that are put on wild snakes. Your snake has no threat from predators, nutrition, parasites (that is of course, you are one of the few people that apparently believe in prophylactic treatment of parasites for hognoses) or anything else you can think of. It is just sitting there are gobbling up animals that actually have to fight to survive. It is simply not going to die if it is not strong enough to catch its next meal, instead it has the very animals it may not be able to capture itself, hand fed to it.

And it seems like toads have even more problems stacked against them, everything from pollution of their water and their food sources, to the fear of predation from people who allow their cats to roam outside. Also, many people make the predictable assumption that an animal that is common is not threatened with extinction. There are many examples of animals that were so ubiquitous it was inconceivable for them to dwindle and number. But there are equally a number of examples that demonstrate that some species can not exist at numbers below common. Just because there are dozens of toads around your house, does not mean that the population can still flourish with only a few individuals. With the typical wide population fluctuations between years of amphibians, it is very easy, even for a toad, to go locally extinct. What would your untrained hognose eat then?

Lastly, I would like to comment on the disappointingly one-sided views many herpetoculturists have. Even though grouping amphibians and reptiles into the science of herpetology is unnatural, I would like to think that people with an interest in one group would be equally concerned about the other. I don't understand how people can have pets like an eastern hognose (that is ironically also exhibiting signs of decline) and be completely unconcerned about amphibians or any other taxa. The important thing that all herpetoculturists should have ingrained in them is a sense of compassion for all wildlife, and especially awareness of issues concerning the very animal they choose to keep.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

So, my post is ignorant. You miss the point. Everything people do to decrease wild populations of animals which have an increasing difficulty of surviving as it is, is the wrong thing to do. There is a fine line you draw when it comes to exotic animals, but when you blatantly say it is ok to keep an animal which requires special care (i.e. taking animals from the wild to feed it - Eastern Hognose), that is wrong. Your ignorance of this does not change the facts, SWWIT.

Aggie, where did I say that you were ignorant? You have your views which I may or may not agree with but I "never" called you ignorant. But you did call me ignorant which I think is unfair and wrong to call someone. Is this what these forums are for? Name calling?
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Steve W.

Steve: last paragraph was not directed at you specifically, just a general statement.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Understood. Thanks.
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Steve W.