Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First forgive me, as I am new here. As many of you known, I am an old timer. So many things have advanced in the time I was not keeping kingsnakes, yet some did not seem to advance at all.

So far, I think nesting and the understanding of nesting is one of them or at least may be one of them.

What is so nice about this forum is, almost everyone has some degree of success. Growth, breeding, nesting and hatching is expected if you follow known methods.

But I still see some misconceptions. I have seen several posts with egg bound females and several posts with females not nesting properly.

Becoming eggbound has a direct relationship to proper nesting, with dehydration becoming the culprid. The longer a female carrys the eggs, the higher the chance of failure.

The biggist misconception I hear is the term nesting box. Well, is it the cart or the horse. A "nesting box" is only a nesting box, after its been successfully nested it. So when you hear, it didn't use the nesting box, that is not accurate, it mearly used the other larger nesting box, the cage. What that means is, your box you call the "nesting box" is not suitable to nest in, or simply put, it would have nested in it.

The reality of nesting is so far from whats being done in captivity its almost scary. I have been very lucky to have experienced many kingsnake nests in nature, of many species. I have yet to see one nest in a box or anything like a box. But I do understand, we only have boxes. So what is value with wild nests that we can use in captivity???

Of course temperature and humidity is important and easy to understand. We understand, snake nests can be anywhere from 75 to 85F and be within range(in nature they are much hotter)(scary hot, but thats nature) Humidity is sometimes misunderstood, snakes like humid, not wet. That is, the nesting material needs humid air, and a dry substrate. This is nature too. Only in nature, the nests seem bone dry, but nature has the mass to keep consistant humidity over long periods without being wet.

What I feel is very very important and totally missed is, security, which in nature means depth. I have never seen snake eggs in nature that you could see without digging, that is, no visible lite. This is where captivity is soooooo off. Most or at least many use clear or transparent sterilite or rubbermaids. This is in error. I believe snakes use depth as a method of both protecting the eggs from predators and keeping consistant temps and humidity.

While this does not sound all that important, considering snakes will lay eggs in your hands. It does effect both the health and success of both the female and the success of hatching. The longer the eggs are held, the harder it is on the female. There is a limit to how long the eggs can be held and still remain hatchable(alive) Once a female has reached that limit and the eggs start to die within her, she dumps them, anywhere. Or she becomes eggbound.

I will show an old method, oh mid sixties or so, maybe late sixties early seventies. This method works with all species of kingsnake and provides lots of fun and its easy to do. I could explain the whole thing, but as we know, pics are worth a thousand words. Then you can ask questions later.

In this pic, you can see little burrow entrances. These are made by the female, yes kingsnakes know how to burrow(thats what they do) The cage is a opaque rubbermaid(old monitor raise up cage) filled halfway up with potting soil and sand mix. A board for hiding and a water bowl.

In this pic theres another hole in the corner.

In this pic, you can see the female digging the egg chamber.

In this pic you can see the female laying eggs.

Now, this is not the best nest, but what it does is this, It allows the female to make some of the same choices she would make in nature. It allows her security with it being totally dark, much the same as nature. And of course, having the right temp and humidity choices.

What these choices do is, they allow the female to drop her eggs much sooner then most would think. From one day after shedding to four or five days. Instead of the 9 or more considered normal. If you would ask any women that has had a baby, ask about what it was like those final days, and if she would want to add more days, hahahahahahahaha, then duck.

In most cases, when females nest properly, they do not look skinny or dehydrated at all. They do not deplete all their energy reserves and are able to reproduce again with much effort. Even if you do not care for more eggs, its still better on the female and will continue to grow.

Again, I hope this is not old hat to most. But then it is old hat. I just hope it was not forgotten. FR

Great post Frank. I am going to try a different twist on the dry substrate and humid air theory later on a second clutch or two. This year and last I have 4 females in Boaphile cages which are Black...and the tops are solid with no screen. I almost never click the light on and and with the nest box near the back they seem much more at ease then when they were kept in large containers which were translucent. The minimal light keeps them mellower in general, as does the 6 square foot of floor space. I see many people posting pics of snakes in the process of laying eggs, I try n snap off a pic once in a while myself but usually by sneaking a camera inside the box and hitting the button once, hoping I get a decent shot. It is hard to resist the urge to peek in on a gravid female...and that also must contribute to the general stress and discomfort snakes go through laying eggs in captivity. I was very tied up with family things this breeding season and did not get to try some new ideas I was thinking about but your post is inspiring. One question for you though,,,,,,,if you have seen snakes lay clutches a day or 2 after shedding did those clutches take the extra week to hatch?....or were they still the average duration as thought to be common with the incubation temperature. Tom Stevens

Hi Tom. Lets look at this from a different standpoint. When was the egg fertilized and shelled? Is there a set time for this? Then what good is holding the eggs after this point?

If you have experience and some bad ones to go with that. You may cut eggs open and see what the heck is going on in there. If you did that, you would notice that eggs laid at different times from shedding, have different sized embryos. It seems, fertilization occurs at or just before the pre-egglaying shed. This also becomes much more obvious with pythons. They lay their eggs a month to 6 weeks after their pre-egglaying shed. Kingsnakes have small embryos after 9 days, pythons have huge embryos after 4 to 6 weeks. And kingsnakes that lay quickly after shedding have very very small embyros.

Again, this points to sometime close to the shed, as to when the eggs were fertilized. Now lets try again. Many reptiles carry their enlarged ovum in the body cavity(in a transparent thin membrane) These ripe ovum are passed into the mouth of the oviduct(egg shell gland) and are fertilized and shelled. Its seen in pythons and boas as "the football". They bunch the ovum up mid body and push them into the oviduct. I am reluctant to use the term oviduct, as its not an oviduct. Its an egg shell gland, sperm storage gland, egg fertilization gland, not an oviduct. I know this occurs with boas, pythons and monitors, I saw it. But when I was keeping kingsnakes I never cut them open to investigate. They may hold their enlarged ovum in one section of the oviduct for a longer period before fertilization. One needs to cut open a female during the "string of pearls" time and before to see where the ovum are. I don't think it will be me, hopefully.

So the answer is no, the incubation time is the same, as that starts when the gametes unite(fertilization) not at egg laying. Thanks FR

You know some other keepers and myself still introduce the male to a plump..seemingly gravid female until she goes opaque. I had wondered about what time the fertilization actually occurs? I own a breeding video for Ball Pythons where they discuss this and it made me wonder how different it was from colubrids. Especially because sometimes when you let a gravid snake slither across your hand you can feel what seems to be solid ovals as you'd expect eggs to feel. Other times though the snake is fat and swelled, even with scales seperating yet the body can still flatten to a degree. Sometimes this makes me panic and I introduce the male again. I also know of breeders who are satisfied when they've seen 2 or 3 copulations. I myself feel confident but still often let the male breed her as many times as he can. I usually do not use more than one male on any female. This year I saw my Mexican Black King come out of the box a few times and she went to lay on the hot spot. In previous years I used 2 boxes, with one being on the hot spot[ but the substrate was several inches deep in the box, and damp which kept temps from getting very warm] and the snake chose the box on the cooler side to deposit her eggs. I did not see her lock up with her mate for clutch #2 but I do believe she is gravid. She shed about a week ago so I will know soon. Another confusing thing I have seen is snakes that appear gravid that swing their tails around in that "come n get it" type way when they appear gravid? If I remove a female to clean her cage and she does this I put the male in again. Knock on wood my production has been good, and I am sure I have a lot of happy male snakes LOL Tom Stevens

Fertilization cannot occur until after ovulation. The ovaries and the oviducts (sorry Frank) are actually separated until ovulation occurs when the oviduct actually moves and encompasses the ovary. Those hard bumps you are feeling when you palpate your female are follicles that are still in the ovary. Once she ovulates the eggs become softer and less defined -- like palping a water balloon. Most people don't want to risk poor fertilization so they keep introducing the male "just to be sure". One breeding is all it takes though and if you monitor your female and introduce the male when you feel large follicles in the female, then once is all that is needed. Timing on colubrids does not seem to be as critical as it is for boas. Boa constrictors seem to be receptive 1 to 1.5 months prior to ovulation. If you breed them late when the female already has full sized follicles, their viability tends to decrease, ie. slugs.

>>You know some other keepers and myself still introduce the male to a plump..seemingly gravid female until she goes opaque. I had wondered about what time the fertilization actually occurs? I own a breeding video for Ball Pythons where they discuss this and it made me wonder how different it was from colubrids. Especially because sometimes when you let a gravid snake slither across your hand you can feel what seems to be solid ovals as you'd expect eggs to feel. Other times though the snake is fat and swelled, even with scales seperating yet the body can still flatten to a degree. Sometimes this makes me panic and I introduce the male again. I also know of breeders who are satisfied when they've seen 2 or 3 copulations. I myself feel confident but still often let the male breed her as many times as he can. I usually do not use more than one male on any female. This year I saw my Mexican Black King come out of the box a few times and she went to lay on the hot spot. In previous years I used 2 boxes, with one being on the hot spot[ but the substrate was several inches deep in the box, and damp which kept temps from getting very warm] and the snake chose the box on the cooler side to deposit her eggs. I did not see her lock up with her mate for clutch #2 but I do believe she is gravid. She shed about a week ago so I will know soon. Another confusing thing I have seen is snakes that appear gravid that swing their tails around in that "come n get it" type way when they appear gravid? If I remove a female to clean her cage and she does this I put the male in again. Knock on wood my production has been good, and I am sure I have a lot of happy male snakes LOL Tom Stevens
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

hi Rich, Please there is no need to say your sorry about correcting me. I do not need to be that right.

Please understand, I have no need to know the exact everything, what I need to know about the insides is a practical knowledge that allows me to make good decisions, and that I have. Or I've been real lucky for a lot of years. Heck, I don't even bother to look up the correct names and terms. The reason is simple, I don't need to know them. My goals are elsewhere.

What is important is to understand what its like when the eggs are never fertilized, or the sperm was non exsistant in the male(non-viable) or when the sperm dies in the female. Or the fertilized eggs die in the female. All these express themselves in the product. Do you know the difference? FR

Hi Frank. I was not correcting you, just apologizing for using the term oviduct which you had just said you didn't like. Your substitute term was a little wordy.

Sometimes it helps my product focused goals to know more exactly what is happening inside. When my alterna dies after ovulation from a systemic infection and the necropsy comes back with yolk peritinitis as the cause, you have to ask how does yolk make it into the body cavity since I thought everything from the ovary to the cloaca was connected. Then you discover that the ovary is actually separated and the follicles are dropped into that duct thingy that also has other functions. Sometimes you can even get some yolk in the female's body cavity which can kill your snake.

Some people, like myself, just have a general curiosity about how things work. Sometimes it helps with my hubandry, other times it is just one more piece of trivia that may or may not become useful in the future. I don't think that makes it unnecessary or implies that I am less insightful or practical than you are. I do have one question though, how do you know when you don't need to know something? Doesn't that imply that you already know all the possible outcomes and ramifications?

>>hi Rich, Please there is no need to say your sorry about correcting me. I do not need to be that right.
>>
>> Please understand, I have no need to know the exact everything, what I need to know about the insides is a practical knowledge that allows me to make good decisions, and that I have. Or I've been real lucky for a lot of years. Heck, I don't even bother to look up the correct names and terms. The reason is simple, I don't need to know them. My goals are elsewhere.
>>
>> What is important is to understand what its like when the eggs are never fertilized, or the sperm was non exsistant in the male(non-viable) or when the sperm dies in the female. Or the fertilized eggs die in the female. All these express themselves in the product. Do you know the difference? FR
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

hahahahahahahahaha, lets see, if what you know is your cutting edge, then whats in front of your edge, needs to be known, but if its behind you, then it does not need to be known. Hows that, hahahahahahahahaha. I do not claim to know anything, I just allow the reptiles to be expert at what they are. Even if its only a guess. FR

Well I never claimed to be cutting edge nor did I refute what you posted. I respect the fact that you are willing to try different things and do not follow the Betty Crocker book of reptile breeding. Observation and tinkering typically are what advances husbandry, not following what the last guy did. But lets at least admit that there is some practical ideas out there that work most of the time even if they are not perfect.
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

take a chill pill, take a long slow sip of that nice hot coffee. No one said anything about anything you flew off the handle for.

Read slow, try to understand. There were some key important words there. Try reading again. It does help to read all the words. "what you know is your cutting edge" The word your is very important. Not "THE" cutting edge, your cutting edge. Also, your was about all of us individually, we all have our own cutting edges.

What the whole nine yards(why isn't this updated to 10 yds, with new cutting edged information?) is about, is simple. We do not have to be right, or super accurate, which is what it seems your looking for, we only have to allow right,the reptiles only need to progress right and to be even more accurate, on a case by case event. If you really want to get all brainy about the TW9YDS, keeping animals is not about knowledge, its about a series of applications. It simply doesn't matter what you know, its only about what you apply. Hows that sir?

Please, didn't you see all the, hahahahahahahaha's, that means laughter and laughter indicates humor. Get some please. Also, for a keeper of animals to think hes right or perfect and has a clear understanding of husbandry, is foolish, that keeper must have his head in a hole(your choice of holes) The animals we screw up, will always remind us how NON PERFECT we are. So tata for now, Your totally non perfect, FR

Ya know it is funny how the most honest book to be written concerning snakes should read like this

You may see this happen and that may be a good thing, but if you do not see that happen it is not a bad thing. The End

Many different things both do and do not work for people as individuals, all we can do is decide what to try and keep our fingers crossed, but it is always good to hear about things in detail as best as others can explain it to you. For example a few years back when I had my first clutch of Corn eggs I was so uncertain of the best way to incubate them I asked many people what to do. I moved the eggs from one place to another so many times and went through the worries of maybe they're too damp or dry that I botched it lost the entire clutch. The next year I decided what I would do and stuck to the plan and have not had any problems since. Matter of factly I use an incubator many people told me was far from the best one to use and I think it does the job nicely. These forums are full of opinions and I do not always agree with them, but it is still good get info and try to use it to your benefit in the future. Sometimes getting too scientific amounts too extra uneccesary headaches. Knowing the basics now will most likely keep your snakes healthy and productive. I think posts like FRs initial post should be commonplace among all of our numerous check out my nice whatever pics. It keeps things interesting and gives us more too talk about. Tom Stevens

Not sure what made you think I flew off the handle, though I did miss your your.

Coffee? Bleck!

You stated "If you really want to get all brainy about the TW9YDS, keeping animals is not about knowledge, its about a series of applications. It simply doesn't matter what you know, its only about what you apply. Hows that sir?"

Yet I don't believe knowledge and application are necessarily mutually exclusive. They can be and you can certainly over think things, but generally application is benefited by knowledge. I think what you are really condeming is absolutism and there I agree.
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

I know nothing of absolutism or do I care too. I do know about reptile husbandry, and I do understand, its not about what I know. Its only about what I do. If I do not do it. It simply doesn't happen.

This is a very common arguement with monitor husbandry. Its like snake husbandry was 30 or more years ago. There are many PhDs and such, who do NOT keep monitors or have not shown any ability or success in doing so, yet, they still preaching about how its suppose to be done. Its almost, no, it is absurd. When someone asks, what do I feed my such and such monitor, they reply with stomach contents and include that is necessary that you feed that diet. I surely do not see anyone here concerned with all these snakes natural diet. I mean to the exact species of prey. As you know, many snakes are diet specialists. Monitors are reptilian rats, they eat anything and everything. The reason I bring this up is, some of these fine folks are very very smart, yet they simply do not know their buns from a hole in the ground about the actual animals and their actual needs.

It does very much end up like this, you can be dumb as a stone, not know a thing about biology, but have a touch with the wants and needs of animals and still be one of the best at keeping them. Its about what you do, not what you know or think. FR

"and include that is necessary that you feed that diet."

That is the absolutism I spoke of.
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

The caged animals(our pets or breeders) do not care about absolutism or be wholislic, or conservative or any other label. Thes simply want their needs taken care of, today, then tomorrow, then the day after that, even when the needs change.

If their needs fit into one persons, absolutism, that thats fine, they the reptiles do not care. They do care if some of their needs are not covered. FR

It seems, fertilization occurs at or just before the pre-egglaying shed

Just to get this straight. The only time a female can get gravid is right before she goes into the opaque egg laying stage?

Also, if you could clarify if this for all north american egg laying colubrids or with boids?

my female ruthven is obviously gravid. i can see the eggs. she is only two years old and was brumated but has never been with a male. she shed two and a half weeks ago but hasn't laid yet. should i give her a better more secure nesting box. so that she will lay? can i put a male in with her? or is it to late? and if i did so would it result in a double clutch?
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SNAKES
1.2 albino cal kings
1.0 het albino bananna
0.0.3 albino banannas
1.1 mexican blacks
1.1.1 knoblochi
1.1 pyros
1.2 mex mex
1.1 66% het hypo durangos
1.1 sinaloan milks
1.1 het hypo tangerines
1.1 cornsnakes (ghost, okeete)
0.1 albino ruthven
1.1 thayeri
GECKOS
1.1 snows
0.1 bell albino
3.1 leusistics
0.1 hypo tangerine
0.1 tremper giant albino tangerine
1.1 normals
2.1 tokays
1.2 crocodiles
1.1 african fat-tails

As I am sure you know first hand, they breed 30 to 42 days(aprox) before egg laying. They lay anywhere from 1 to 14 days after their shed(colubrids) So no, they do not breed or can be fertilized just before shedding.

I also thought most understood the process by now, or at least have some idea of it. They cycle or become receptive right before and just after the ovum drops from the overies. Its my belief that after one breeding a plug is formed and no other breedings are required or do any good.

You can tell when a plug has formed as when a male is done breeding, a ball of sperm is seen falling out. Its very common. Do you think the sperm should fall out on a good breeding? hahahahahahaha.

The sperm is normally stored until fertilization. I hope this helps FR

Well your claims just back up what I have been telling people for years about nest boxes. I just wanted some clarification on your part. I never use a nest box because my snakes prefer to bury themselves in the moistened pine shavings instead of the pretty box with the spagnum or vermiculite in it. I gave up on nest boxes years ago. However, when I did use them the snakes LOVED to deficate in them (usually right before they laid their eggs in the clean pine shavings). Guess they were trying to tell me how they felt about the lay-box crammed into their space.

Could you elaborate on the dehydration part? Personally I don't leave water bowls in with my snakes after the pre-lay shed. I place water bowls once every 10 days and then remove the following day. I have never had a dehydration problem or retention because of it. I think it also saves on a lot of parasite problems and diseases for year long care. A gravid female will sometimes lay in the water bowl causing eggs to drown or they will defecate in the water bowl and then drink it. Of coarse dehydration will cause problems with any healthy animal whether a gravid female or not. I just opt not to worry about all the problems associated with water bowls.

That being said, you got me to go into the snake room and give my gravid females extra water. Just in case ....

BTW what does FR stand for?

Rainer

Fortunately, you do not need to fix what ain't broke. But for those who are having problems, they need to fix it, yea?

Also, keeping snakes is suppose to be for our enjoyment, and for me, to see them do natural things like making a nest is "the fun". I you look at the second pic, you will see the snake creating a chamber. They do this by crawling in circles with their head on the outside. They keep doing this until there is a spot in the middle for the eggs. They then crawl very slowly in a circle and stack the eggs are they are laid. At least thats what they do if allowed.

So far no one has said anything but if you notice, this female is laying her eggs under a piece of glass. This allows me to peek and take pics without caving in the chamber. The glass also represents the bottom of a rock or ledge they would lay under, in nature.

Of interest FYI, Pyros normally communally nest in holes and crevices. Where as, Variable kings(in the pic) normally nest singlarly. Thanks Frank Retes= FR

Didn't anybody notice something odd. How come the female is not bothered by me taking pics? FR

Is that a layer of glass between the snake and the substrate on top??? Tom Stevens

Yes sir, Thats an old Ernie Wagner trick. I used deep larger nesting and Ernie used glass and lunch boxes. I took the glass and left the lunch box. Really, he would use those metal lunch boxes. Kinda cool huh?

Back in those days we debated between photo-period(Ernie) and hibernation(me) as to what caused kingsnakes to breed reliably. Now I do not believe in either, hahahahahahahahahaha. FR

That is a great idea. I enjoy your posts Frank, I have one on another forum I am going to bring over here when things are slow. I think you will like it. Will you be going to Daytona this year? Thanks for the input Tom Stevens

>>First forgive me, as I am new here. As many of you known, I am an old timer. So many things have advanced in the time I was not keeping kingsnakes, yet some did not seem to advance at all.
>>
>> So far, I think nesting and the understanding of nesting is one of them or at least may be one of them.
>>
>> What is so nice about this forum is, almost everyone has some degree of success. Growth, breeding, nesting and hatching is expected if you follow known methods.
>>
>> But I still see some misconceptions. I have seen several posts with egg bound females and several posts with females not nesting properly.
>>
>> Becoming eggbound has a direct relationship to proper nesting, with dehydration becoming the culprid. The longer a female carrys the eggs, the higher the chance of failure.
>>
>> The biggist misconception I hear is the term nesting box. Well, is it the cart or the horse. A "nesting box" is only a nesting box, after its been successfully nested it. So when you hear, it didn't use the nesting box, that is not accurate, it mearly used the other larger nesting box, the cage. What that means is, your box you call the "nesting box" is not suitable to nest in, or simply put, it would have nested in it.
>>
>> The reality of nesting is so far from whats being done in captivity its almost scary. I have been very lucky to have experienced many kingsnake nests in nature, of many species. I have yet to see one nest in a box or anything like a box. But I do understand, we only have boxes. So what is value with wild nests that we can use in captivity???
>>
>> Of course temperature and humidity is important and easy to understand. We understand, snake nests can be anywhere from 75 to 85F and be within range(in nature they are much hotter)(scary hot, but thats nature) Humidity is sometimes misunderstood, snakes like humid, not wet. That is, the nesting material needs humid air, and a dry substrate. This is nature too. Only in nature, the nests seem bone dry, but nature has the mass to keep consistant humidity over long periods without being wet.
>>
>> What I feel is very very important and totally missed is, security, which in nature means depth. I have never seen snake eggs in nature that you could see without digging, that is, no visible lite. This is where captivity is soooooo off. Most or at least many use clear or transparent sterilite or rubbermaids. This is in error. I believe snakes use depth as a method of both protecting the eggs from predators and keeping consistant temps and humidity.
>>
>> While this does not sound all that important, considering snakes will lay eggs in your hands. It does effect both the health and success of both the female and the success of hatching. The longer the eggs are held, the harder it is on the female. There is a limit to how long the eggs can be held and still remain hatchable(alive) Once a female has reached that limit and the eggs start to die within her, she dumps them, anywhere. Or she becomes eggbound.
>>
>> I will show an old method, oh mid sixties or so, maybe late sixties early seventies. This method works with all species of kingsnake and provides lots of fun and its easy to do. I could explain the whole thing, but as we know, pics are worth a thousand words. Then you can ask questions later.
>>
>>
>> In this pic, you can see little burrow entrances. These are made by the female, yes kingsnakes know how to burrow(thats what they do) The cage is a opaque rubbermaid(old monitor raise up cage) filled halfway up with potting soil and sand mix. A board for hiding and a water bowl.
>>
>> In this pic theres another hole in the corner.
>>
>> In this pic, you can see the female digging the egg chamber.
>>
>> In this pic you can see the female laying eggs.
>>
>> Now, this is not the best nest, but what it does is this, It allows the female to make some of the same choices she would make in nature. It allows her security with it being totally dark, much the same as nature. And of course, having the right temp and humidity choices.
>>
>> What these choices do is, they allow the female to drop her eggs much sooner then most would think. From one day after shedding to four or five days. Instead of the 9 or more considered normal. If you would ask any women that has had a baby, ask about what it was like those final days, and if she would want to add more days, hahahahahahahaha, then duck.
>>
>> In most cases, when females nest properly, they do not look skinny or dehydrated at all. They do not deplete all their energy reserves and are able to reproduce again with much effort. Even if you do not care for more eggs, its still better on the female and will continue to grow.
>>
>> Again, I hope this is not old hat to most. But then it is old hat. I just hope it was not forgotten. FR
>>

post of the year,,,,,,,,,DEFINATELY!!!
great info&pics! thank you!,,,,,,,thomas davis

Your very welcome and I am glad you liked it. My posts are not about right or wrong. They are for your enjoyment and to allow us to think. Cheers FR

Frank with your experience maybe you could tell me can female graybands that have never been with a male get gravid? I have two that appear gravid they were never with males but there were other adults ovulating and breeding in the same room. Could the scents from the other snakes have caused these females to produce eggs or are they probably just ovulating? Should I be preparing for them to lay?

Hi, Strap on the saddle, we are going for a long ride.

In 1977, I attempted to publish a series of pathnogenetic reproductions. I had it peer reviewed and the peers at the time said, snake do not do that, some lizards do. So that was that. I even sent a whole clutch of hatchlings from a virgin clutch to a Universty. They never got back to me.(they dropped the ball on that one)

I had perfect proof that those females were not mated, I had them their whole lives and knew their history.

To make a long story a little shorter, Dr(i believe) Gordon Shuette(sp) proved thru genetic tests, that some of these long term sperm storage reproductive events, were not sperm storage, but instead parthnogenetic births. If I remember anything, there were two basic types, Diploid and triploid. One type resulted in all male offspring. Which was the case with my events.

What caused this to happen with females that normally need a male to reproduce. I don't have the foggist idea, but the absence of a male most likely helped.

So yes, its possible, and if it occurs successfully please keep us informed.

A side note, all my events happened in a two year period, after breeding kings for many years, I was done with breeding them so I keep all the females without males until I got rid of them. This was a time of many odd things. As I was done breeding calkings and moving to the mexican montane kings. It seems my attempt at not breeding didn't work. FR

Thanks Frank I gave them nest boxes just in case. BTW I have read two accounts of parthenogenisis in snakes one a Burmese Python the other a Timber Rattler but had not heard of it with colubrids. I will keep the forum posted on what happens. I always enjoy your posts, they certainly generate alot of discussion.

Yea, Gordy found it in many different species of snakes. I forget the exact types.

As far as I know, its not been seen in monitors, but, and this is a large but. I have heard of two cases with crosses. One a fella raised a Sav and an argus monitor, they grew up under his care. They bred and laid eggs, at least several times. He finally hatched a few and cut open several full term eggs. All the babies appeared to be argus only.

Also many years ago, a dealer/shop/reptile place, crossed a croc monitor with a water, hatched one baby, it only appeared to be a water. As we who have done crosses understand, there is almost always indications of both parents, Normally. I say almost, only because I assume its possible to have one only appear like one parent, but I have not experienced that.

While those are not large enough numbers, they do create room for thought and investigation. FR

I posted years ago about a female rattlesnake kept in a University that gave birth without being in contact with a male for 4 years. That case was deemed parthogenesis and surprised the folks in that science department. I later found out that it has been thought to occur in some gartersnakes that have been separated from males for long periods. Interesting stuff.

>>Thanks Frank I gave them nest boxes just in case. BTW I have read two accounts of parthenogenisis in snakes one a Burmese Python the other a Timber Rattler but had not heard of it with colubrids. I will keep the forum posted on what happens. I always enjoy your posts, they certainly generate alot of discussion.