Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hatchling

Male

Female

best regards
nazzza

Congratulations! How many babies did you get, and any details on incubation, etc?

Terry

-----
Yahoo group homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ratsnakehaven/

Contact info: www.ratsnakehaven.com

Hi Terry,
female laid 7 (or 8??) good eggs and 1 slug the 11 of may: started to hatch all yesterday: 100% live big nice hatchlings
First time I breed these snakes 2 years ago the eggs were very hard (as oxycephala eggs), this time were normal (big, but soft as guttata eggs). I had them at 26°C (they are in the same incubator with my eastern indigo eggs) on perlite. I had about 60% of humidity, because when I had higher humidity (80-90%) indigo eggs started to swell too much.
I had also a 100% hatch rate with my heterodon, I think that the low incubation temp is the key.
Best regards
nazzza

Nazza, that is very interesting.

I counted the incubation time for your dione as 35 days. My South Korean dione started pipping after 25 days. I would suggest that your dione are central Chinese in origin, as they have the longest incubation of any of the dione. They are very pretty and hardy snakes. They have large eggs too, and large babies, right?

Congratulations on your success. I agree that cooler temps help with the incubation. I have found that there are problems when the temp gets over 82*F, and when the temp is never lowered during incubation, the eggs can develop too fast, which isn't too good for them. I let my temps cool at night. They can be lowered several degrees, to as low as 78*F, or so, as long as they warm up again the next day. This is all natural.

I had humidity similar to your too. Thanks for the info...

Terry

>>Hi Terry,
>>female laid 7 (or 8??) good eggs and 1 slug the 11 of may: started to hatch all yesterday: 100% live big nice hatchlings
>>First time I breed these snakes 2 years ago the eggs were very hard (as oxycephala eggs), this time were normal (big, but soft as guttata eggs). I had them at 26°C (they are in the same incubator with my eastern indigo eggs) on perlite. I had about 60% of humidity, because when I had higher humidity (80-90%) indigo eggs started to swell too much.
>>I had also a 100% hatch rate with my heterodon, I think that the low incubation temp is the key.
>>Best regards
>>nazzza

-----
Yahoo group homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ratsnakehaven/

Contact info: www.ratsnakehaven.com

Terry!

my north korean diones incubate for 29-30 days. This is not so different from some other variations, like Nigritas.

The biggest hatchling was 30.2 mm (total lenght).

That diones, from Nazza fotos, sometimes looks like striped phase of bimaculata.
-----
--------------
Ivan Arinin
Tula Exotarium
ICQ 151665951
Site: www.edione.narod.ru
E.g. guttata (many variations)
E.g. emoryi
E.g. rosacea

E. persica black 3.4
E. persica brown 2.1
E. longissima 4.6
E. situla 3.3
E. dione 54 (many variations)
E. bimaculata 4.3

E. o. obsoleta yellow 2.2
E. o. lindheimeri White Sided 2.2.
E. o. lindheimeri Leucistic 1.2
E. o. lindheimeri Black Orange 2.2
E. o. quadrivittata Deckerti 2.2
E. o. quadrivittata Williamsi 1.0
E. o. rossalleni 2.2

Langaha madagascariensis 1.1
O. t. friesi 1.1
O. t. ssp. Blue Beauty 1.1

My diones should be central china, they were born from Dr. Rainer Fesser. I had some problems with the first clutch: 2 had problems to the back and 1 to the head (I incubated them at room temp, but was an hot year), Dr. Fesser said that at least for the first week temp should not exceed 26°C to avoid problems. This year all the hachlings are perfect.

regards

nazzza

3 pics of hatchlings

Nazza, nice pics.

Here's a comparison of my first hatchling this year of the South Koreans to your Chinese hatchling...

Your hatchling...

I think my hatchlings tended to be smaller. This one only weighed 7 grams, but the group ave. 8.2 grams.

TC

>>Terry!
>>
>>my north korean diones incubate for 29-30 days. This is not so different from some other variations, like Nigritas.
>>
>>The biggest hatchling was 30.2 mm (total lenght).
>>
>>That diones, from Nazza fotos, sometimes looks like striped phase of bimaculata.
>>-----
>>--------------
>>Ivan Arinin

Ivan,

My previous Korean dione hatched at 29-30 days also. I think they were a little too warm this last time. This year's hatchlings averaged 8.2 grams.

Nazza's photo snake definitely looks like dione to me. I think it is a classic Chinese dione with the reddish head and the wide dorsal light stripe. The bimaculata seem to have a smaller, gentler face too. They can look a lot like bimaculata though when they come from the same general area.

PS: Ivan, can you tell me where the 'nigritas' are from? You have bred these?

TC

Terry,

Maybe, in true, i have very limited possibilities for working with chinese diones. I have several specimns from East China and several from Central China (Xian). Now i can say only that its look different.

My nigritas origin from Northern Osetia (Northern Kaukasus). Yes, i bred them from 2004 year, this is not easy because hatchlings have some problems with digestion (they are lizards eaters in nature) and not many grow to adults.
-----
--------------
Ivan Arinin
Tula Exotarium
ICQ 151665951
Site: www.edione.narod.ru
E.g. guttata (many variations)
E.g. emoryi
E.g. rosacea

E. persica black 3.4
E. persica brown 2.1
E. longissima 4.6
E. situla 3.3
E. dione 54 (many variations)
E. bimaculata 4.3

E. o. obsoleta yellow 2.2
E. o. lindheimeri White Sided 2.2.
E. o. lindheimeri Leucistic 1.2
E. o. lindheimeri Black Orange 2.2
E. o. quadrivittata Deckerti 2.2
E. o. quadrivittata Williamsi 1.0
E. o. rossalleni 2.2

Langaha madagascariensis 1.1
O. t. friesi 1.1
O. t. ssp. Blue Beauty 1.1

Ivan, yes, I believe there are several different "looks" from China, depending on whether they come from Xian, Liaoning, Yangste Valley, etc. What we have called "central Chinese" has been the form from near the central Chinese plains for the last few years. Isn't Xian mountainous and somewhat near Mongolia?

Your nigritas seem very interesting. I would like to see more photos, so I will check your site. Are they very difficult to switch over to mice? Are the babies very small?

Thanks, again, for the info....Terry

Terry,

When i say "East China" i mean - Yangtse Valley, yes, it is. Right side of this river.

Xian can be found near big mountain system, not very mountaineous by self. I also know about diones from Chengdu point, this is more southern place.

I have theiory about intergradation zone between diones with more or less "normal" coloration and pattern sheme from former USSR asian republics, similiar mongolian variations and more or less typical chinese variation, that take place in this place. Here we can meet results of crossbreeding, that show to us conjucted and bigger blotches, more grey coloration etc.

You can try my site and site of Wim and Gidi Van de Belt. Also you can try site of Litteratura Serpentium, where was posted article of Sergei Ryabov from 2000 year about Z. persicus (it contain foto of Nigrita because it is very similiar).

No, it is not so small, a little smaller than chinese/korean ones. This is dont problem - swith it to mice, but several first weeks you need to force feed almost all offsprings. All wild specimens have digestion problems with mices and specific cloacal infection, that you cant threat successfully.

Ivan
-----
--------------
Ivan Arinin
Tula Exotarium
ICQ 151665951
Site: www.edione.narod.ru
E.g. guttata (many variations)
E.g. emoryi
E.g. rosacea

E. persica black 3.4
E. persica brown 2.1
E. longissima 4.6
E. situla 3.3
E. dione 54 (many variations)
E. bimaculata 4.3

E. o. obsoleta yellow 2.2
E. o. lindheimeri White Sided 2.2.
E. o. lindheimeri Leucistic 1.2
E. o. lindheimeri Black Orange 2.2
E. o. quadrivittata Deckerti 2.2
E. o. quadrivittata Williamsi 1.0
E. o. rossalleni 2.2

Langaha madagascariensis 1.1
O. t. friesi 1.1
O. t. ssp. Blue Beauty 1.1

>>Terry,
>>
>>When i say "East China" i mean - Yangtse Valley, yes, it is. Right side of this river.
>>
>>Xian can be found near big mountain system, not very mountaineous by self. I also know about diones from Chengdu point, this is more southern place.
>>
>>I have theiory about intergradation zone between diones with more or less "normal" coloration and pattern sheme from former USSR asian republics, similiar mongolian variations and more or less typical chinese variation, that take place in this place. Here we can meet results of crossbreeding, that show to us conjucted and bigger blotches, more grey coloration etc.
>>

Ivan,

Sounds like you have a lot of valuable information on diones. I wish we could get information on the ecology of the various forms.

Also, if E. dione and E. bimaculata both occur in the Yangtse Valley, then how do their behaviors differ, so they can live in the same area without over-competing with each other? Do you think dione also occurs south of the Yangtse River? Where is this "Chengdu Point?" I think I've heard of it, but can't find it on my map right now.

My theory is that dione is more-or-less a montane species, whereas, bimaculata is a low elevation, subtropical form living just in the Yangtze Valley. Bimaculata is somewhat fossorial in nature and also has a longer active season, I believe.

Thanks for the discussion...TC.

Terry

This is big enought city from central China... Ok, i will try to make pic for you.

I dont know much about Chinese and Korean parts of E. dione distribution, this is too hard to reach it and i dont have any dealers, hunters or specialists from its regions in contact.

About Yangtsee river sides - i think i make mistake - i mean northern side of this river, so i dont sure that dione live on southern side.

For me here is a little difference between E. dione and E. bimaculata, i have fertile hybrids, that looks like normal dione and readily bred with bimacs and diones. Also in behavior i dont see principal differences, both are more nervous and secretive than diones from russian and asian parts of distribution.

I dont think that dione is mountain species, ofcource, it live in mountains at 3600 altitude, but i think this is result of incredible ecological plasticity of this animals. In other side -it can live at sea level, for example - 200-600 m above it.

Maybe in China it live primarily in mountains, but i cant tell you anything about it, lack of data.

Ivan
-----
--------------
Ivan Arinin
Tula Exotarium
ICQ 151665951
Site: www.edione.narod.ru
E.g. guttata (many variations)
E.g. emoryi
E.g. rosacea

E. persica black 3.4
E. persica brown 2.1
E. longissima 4.6
E. situla 3.3
E. dione 54 (many variations)
E. bimaculata 4.3

E. o. obsoleta yellow 2.2
E. o. lindheimeri White Sided 2.2.
E. o. lindheimeri Leucistic 1.2
E. o. lindheimeri Black Orange 2.2
E. o. quadrivittata Deckerti 2.2
E. o. quadrivittata Williamsi 1.0
E. o. rossalleni 2.2

Langaha madagascariensis 1.1
O. t. friesi 1.1
O. t. ssp. Blue Beauty 1.1

Ivan, I found Chengdu. It's the capital of Sichuan Province.

The reason I was having trouble is because I thought you meant it was near the Yangzte R. and near the coast, like close to Shanghai. I believe this part of Sichuan is pretty mountainous and pretty far west. There wouldn't be any bimaculata there, for instance. Also, the central Chinese dione I was talking about come from the central plains area near the Yellow River.

As far as bimaculata and dione hybridizing, I'm not saying it isn't possible, but I believe there are some morphological differences, as well as genetic differences. I also think their ranges don't overlap very much. I meant before that dione was montane in China, not elsewhere. I think bimaculata inhabits the Yangtze Valley and dione inhabits the mountains north of it, one of the reasons its distribution is spotty. I think bimaculata is subtropical and somewhat fossorial, compared to dione, which is more terrestrial. Bimaculata is also a smaller snake, relatively. I doubt that they would hybridize in the wild.

Hope this is good info for discussion. I'm leaving for a trip tomorrow morning, but will be happy to discuss it more when I return in a week. Locality info would be greatly appreciated. Anyone who is interested feel free to contact me at tmcox(at)ratsnakehaven.com. Thanks.

Terry

PS: Ivan, do you have any pics of your hybrid bimac x dione?

-----
Yahoo group homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ratsnakehaven/

Contact info: www.ratsnakehaven.com

i don't know the lenght, but my hatchlings averaged 11 gr (between 10 and 13). The parents are cb 99.
regards
nazzza

Hey, that's great. Those are big babies.

TC