Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok so as I spend more time on this forum reading posts & looking at people's photos, I see a lot of info from people on what Gulf Coast boxies look like.
I've never seen a wild Gulf coast,I live so far away from the Gulf of Mexico, I haven't even been there since 1985. I didn't know that they may or may not have markings. Last year I was brought a box turtle with pink nail polish on her & she's the biggest darn box I've ever seen in my life. She weighs a pound & a half right now.
What do you people think she is?
Here's 3 photos of her, in one of them she is next to Shell E who used to be our largest box turtle.

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PHRatz

That looks huge! Any way you can post a pic of her next to a ruler or tapemeasure for comparison?
Stephanie

This is a huge ornate! a T. ornata ornata. that color of the plastron is unmistakeable. she's certainly large enough to be a gulf coast...but looks nothing like one otherwise.
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"When tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign foe."

James Madison

Thanks Mick,
I was hoping that you'd answer since you see a lot of Gulf coasters where you live. Having never seen one other than in photos, I just wasn't sure.
Funny thing about her, she's so huge yet she is the most skittish of them all. If there are alphas in a turtle group then Shell E is the one because Charity won't mess with Shell E.

btw could you see where Shell E is missing quite a bit of her carapace right behind her head? She can't close all the way up, she's the one who was broken & took 2 years to heal.
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PHRatz

well, the alley cat with the hardest life and the most scars, is usually the punchiest too.

Mick
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"When tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign foe."

James Madison

Shell E the punchy ally cat LOL.
She was spoiled rotten after 2 years here, she's been here for 5 years now. She doesn't even want to live outside. She likes to go outside but in the evening when she's ready to come in & go to bed she'll sit at the door.
She's the only one who (like the tortoise) will look up at me when I talk to her, she's a brat!
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PHRatz

Steph,
That big one is named Charity because she is my charity case. She looks huge because she really is. lol
I have never seen one as big as she is & she's oddly lumpy. Yes I can get a pic of her next to a ruler so I'll do that soon & get it posted.
I think she had been dumped out here because she had nail polish on her and because there is only one other person who keeps them in my neighborhood, I asked & she said it's not her turtle.
After I got her she ate box turtle appropriate foods like I've never seen one eat for about 3 months & then she tapered off & began to eat like a normal turtle. She's still eating like a normal one today so my theory was she'd been dumped, didn't know where to find food & was maybe starving. My vet took a look at her, didn't run any tests other than a fecal but said you have to keep her so I did.
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PHRatz

Ornate Box Turtle--- and a beautiful one

I believe your larger boxie is a hybrid having traits from the Gulf Coast with it's extreme size and extremely large flat area on it's dome. It appears to also have some flaring on the posterior end; all of which are strong traits of Gulf Coast Boxies. The pattern and coloration is that of an Ornate.
Yet if you compare the intensity of it's radiating lines even next to your other Ornate, they appear somewhat dilute. Most Ornates like your smaller Ornate have domes more round, typical of Ornata. If the larger one was pure Ornate it's dome should be higher and rounder in proportion to it's size. The larger one also has a strong dorsal keel which is a trait again of the subspecies T. c.Major ( Gulf Coast).
Typical identification of Ornata is that the rear of the carapace is neither serrated nor flared. Just explaining my opinion. A lot of breeders intentionally hybridize their boxies; although I am not a proponent of this practice.

Just for comparison you might try and post your pics on the forum above this one..."What type of Turtle is this?"
In either case, they are both very, nice boxies.
Ric

Thanks Ric & Rob both for your opinions & I believe I will post her pics on that other board.

Now hmmm about her being intentionally hybridized, that's a thought. What prompted me to even ask about this is that I've read so much about the flaring on the Gulf coast turtles & I see some flaring on her.
I do believe she'd been kept for years & fed by someone with who knows what food to make her a little bit oddly lumpy. It's kind of like pyramiding but on the other hand does it look like the normal lumpiness of some ornates but bigger because she's so wide & flat? Or is it really pyramiding?
(I'm just kind of thinking out loud here lol)
She is a big pretty one, but she's odd looking to me. She has never behaved as if she had a clue about what it is to be wild. I don't think she ever has been in the wild, I think she'd spent her life in someone's backyard with other turtles somewhere & that's just based on how differently she behaves from formerly wild turtles like Shell E.
There are too many people here who keep too many box turtles in their backyard & feed them cat food. Because so many clueless do that, I just automatically assume that's the type of place she has been in.
Even though she's shy, I knew from the first time I fed her that she was used to being fed by someone.
I'll get some pics of her this weekend next to a ruler.
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PHRatz

Backyard box turtles are one of my major pet peeves in this town/region where I live. We are in West TX where ornates are still abundant & this didn't really start to peeve me until I started teaching this summer class for 1st-6th graders in 1999.
That's when I realized how common it is for people here to take any box or other turtle that they find, stick it in their backyard, & feed it cat food.
I don't believe there are any true breeders here, there are just a lot of clueless people collecting them for no reason other than they think they're cool looking.
Most people we run into who have them don't even know what kind of turtles they are, many people call them regular turtles or snapping turtles. Man if you don't have a clue then you need to leave them be!
It's so pervasive that nearly any vet you meet in my town will treat box turtles, even some of the equine vets do it because there are so many kept in backyards.
If Charity was hybridized it probably would've been an accident because someone had a bunch of turtles in the backyard & was only keeping them because they're "cool." She had nail polish on her, too many people here mark them because they can't tell them apart, even though none of them look exactly alike.
I haven't lived here all my life but through the class I teach I've had to spend every year spelling out why you don't feed cat food & iceberg lettuce to box turtles. The parents tend to understand the part about feeding them but when I spell out why you leave them alone & stop collecting them that part of my speil always falls on deaf ears.
I meet the parents on the last day of each session. We let the kids do show & tell & there are always more box turtles than anything else brought in for show & tell.
Yesterday was parents day because it was the end of session 1.
A kid brought in two turtles & the first one out of the box was a large male yellow mud. I said that, the mother said "Really? We thought it was a desert tortoise!"
OY!!!
I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle here.
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PHRatz

My own pet peeve is what had me feeling so torn about Hobo & Janie that girl we found on the highway near the new housing development. I never wanted to be one of those people but knowing that I may never see Hobo again because of a dog just tore me up. If he were killed by a natural predator in the wild I could live with that but a pesky spoiled dog with an owner who didn't care what the dog was doing to him? No I couldn't stand the thought of that.
Janie had the option to leave, 4 days to leave. No other turtle has ever stayed here when it had the option to leave. They can all see through the gates, they all gravitate to them to get out & all before her have done that usually within an hour or less, but she didn't do that. I've watched Janie, she'll come out early in the morning, use the water dish, hunt around for bugs, then go back into the house she's staked out to spend the hot part of the day there. She will walk a long way through the yard but she never goes to the gates even though I know she's seen them. In the evening she'll come out for water again or to sit in the cool breeze. She'll eat what I feed her when I do feed her then it's back to her house. She doesn't appear to want to leave, so then I ask myself should I force her to leave if she doesn't want to? I've felt a lot of mixed feelings about those two but.. I dunno..
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PHRatz

If she is acting as you say, then it is possible that she has bonded to your yard as her territory. I would say moving her would be cruel, as she'd have to reorient herself again and be very vunerable to her environment. I know in the east several boxies die within a year of release because of this...but I am not keen on south or western species. Does anyone else have any input on this?

I agree. She's decided she's home. It's also very possible that she was a dumped pet.

Seaclaw, Laure...anyone else lol
Janie is doing odd things that do make me wonder if Lacey was right all along, maybe Jane is a lost or dumped pet. Friday night I made a puddle under a tree after I'd fed her a couple of nightcrawlers where she sat, which was in the pen area. Then I took her to the water so she could use it or not. I came in the house to get the camera & when I came back she boldly walked right up to me & stared at me. I assumed she wanted more food so I gave her some, I was right that is what she wanted.
With Hobo who has always known that I will feed him it's totally different. He wants food from me but he avoids me as much as possible. I have to set food down a couple of feet away from him then get out of the way before he'll come to eat it.
Saturday night Janie was waiting at the tree for me to make another puddle. I hadn't planned to feed her but she walked up to me & stared again, so I gave her a berry. How wild is that? lol
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PHRatz

Really, the only thing that looks remotely like a Coastie about this turtle, is it's size.
*I see no significant flaring of the rear scutes at all.
*The reduced curvature of the carapace is indicative of older ornates, especially with pyramiding, just as well as it is to Coasties.
*The "intensity" of a coloration pattern is too subjective and variable a factor, besides the fact that the overall pattern too closely resembles the example next to it.
*I see no "strong" dorsal keel ( dorsal ridge ). Only a strong dorsal stripe.

where are you seeing this stuff? I must be blind.

Mick

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"When tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign foe."

James Madison

Isn’t it GREAT to be an American?

We can voice our beliefs and opinions without persecution.

On this board we all read your opinions. Not everyone is going to agree with you or me. That’s what this board is all about.
I read your opinion regarding the Gulf/ Ornate Boxie. I stated my reasons for what I believe; in the above email. I also received several emails from other readers who agree with my opinion on this matter. I have raised and breed Gulf Coast Boxies and Ornates. I have had very old ( ancient) Gulf Coast Boxies that did have a flat slightly concave dome. It did not look anything like the one pictured; which is a much younger individual and is probably still growing....like most Gulf Coast Boxies which are the largest of the Subspecies. Pure Ornates don’t even come close to Gulf Coast size....That should be your biggest clue. I can easily see the pyramiding; which I allowed for in making my decision.

I disagree with your call and believe it to be a Hybrid.
In your attack on my belief; you stated you must be going” Blind.”

Good grief, relax, take care of yourself.....see an optometrist. Try and see the pure breed Ornate pic I’ve attached.... And smile....You’ll live longer to write more posts; some of which I MIGHT agree with.
Ric

Oh, get the hell over it. Sounds like you're the one who needs to calm down.

You talk about giving opinions in this country without
"persecution"?....then you whine incessantly because I made four short points in detail which disagree with you? How ironic.

I don't care how many ghost emails you have who agree with you. The fact that you mention messages from unknowns is supposed to sway someone?

Yes, this is America...where I, ALSO, can offer differing information. Thisis an "attack" on your "beliefs" you think?!! Please! Are you talking about your right to live an alternate life style? Or maybe your religious freedom? You make it sound a bit personal to me. There was no "attack" on any "beliefs". There was only observation in the form of an "opinion" which "disagreed" with you. I'm sorry it did not elevate you to simply respond to the details I rasied, rather than complain about it. Because, in all those words you still didn't offer a rebuttal to most of what I pointed out...

Mick
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"When tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign foe."

James Madison

If you cant't post a pic, can you take some measurements? Photos without a reference can be really deceptive: the side-by-side photo with your other turtle is an example, since its shell has been nibbled on and is smaller than it ought to be.
I think Mick's on to something when referring to carapace 'flattening' with age: we have a couple of senior citizen easterns than show this effect.
Stephanie

hey Steph, it's the image Ratz posted up the page..
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"When tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign foe."

James Madison

Thanks Mick
I saw those images, and just wanted to have a better frame of reference (ruler/tapemeasure): the early photos of giant sequoias looked like normal trees until you saw the human in the frame...

Stephanie

And here it is. We got the pic of her next to a yard stick:

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PHRatz

Thatnks for posting the view with a measure in it.
OK, so it looks like she's about 6 inches long, or about 15cm.
Ernst, Lovich , and Barbour in 'Turtles of the US and Canada' state that ornates get to 15.4 cm carapace length, whereas the gulf coast get to be up to 21.6cm.
I'm certainly no authority on the subject, but it seems to me that this turtle is within the size range for ornates, based on what we can see from the photo with the yardstick in the frame.
Also, based on my observation of easterns, older turtles do take on a flattened apperance. If ornates show the same flattening, then could this be a senoir citizen?
Our easterns also show widely varying degrees of marginal scute flaring and coloration and patterning, so, it seems to me that shell shape and/or coloration alone is a poor indicator of species.

She's certainly a beauty.
Regards,
Stephanie

Really, is there a question here anymore?
The size reference puts her even smaller than she appeared before. I can't comment on it with the exactness I like to, because of the angle. But I'm going to jump out on a limb and say she looks about 5 1/2 inches carapace length?

Conclusions that this girl is anything but pure Ornata ornata, at this point, would require a M-DNA analysis to justify.

Mick
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"When tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign foe."

James Madison

It is an ornate - a very large one at that. It's possible that somewhere in its ancestry there could be some mixing to account for the size, but the markings and flatness suggest very strongly ornate.

DP

If she's totally ornate I wonder then if someone feeding her cat food may have caused her to grow too fast, develop the pyramiding, become very large, and she may be younger than we might think?
I'm just thinking out loud again because...
Our terribly pyramided sulcata tortoise was small for a sulcata when she was found dumped out in the country 3 years ago, she weighed only 9 pounds.
I thought then that she may be at least 10 years old but after reading, hearing from other sulcata keepers, & then watching her grow so quickly as she's been allowed to graze at will as the appearance of the pyramids have diminished; I've wondered if she's actually younger than we'd originally thought. She's put on a lot of weight- 41 lbs in 3 years. Charity has also been on a corrected diet & is gaining too even though I don't feed her daily.
Ok I like to ramble on things that make me go hmmmmm.. so that's enough for now.
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PHRatz