Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So what's going on with the taxonamy for the different sub-species? I've heard a lot of "they are" and "they aren't" opinions, but has there been any scientific progress on determining this? I know the patterns are extremely different in some cases (I know this isn't enough to separate a sub-species), and recent venom study is showing some pretty drastic differences in the locality of the snakes. Not to mention, I've seen plenty of "canebreaks" at the hot PA shows, where technically native species aren't allowed, meaning they are a sub-species.

It just seems odd to me that this is under debate considering how similar a norther and southern copperhead are. I know if I were in an area where both exist and I found one in a field by itself, the only guess I'd have to which it is would be based on the color. (Although I've asked before what the 'technical' differences between a northern and southern are and the only answer I ever get is the color which sometimes still isn't enough to go by).

Any thoughts?
-Will

Here is the most current (that I know of) paper:

Clark, A.M., P.E. Moler, E.E. Possardt, A.H. Savitzky, W.S. Brown & B.W. Bowen (2003) Phylogeography of the timber rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus) based on mtDNA sequences. Journal of Herpetology 37(1): 145-154.

Like you said there are a lot of "opinions" regarding the Timber only monotypic classification. Those "opinionated" people should get a better grasp of the most current research instead of discarding something they may or may not have read.
Here is a link to the abstract for the paper:

http://biology.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/Updates/Crotalinae2003.htm

I agree with the authors of the paper. Just because they look different and have behavioral adaptations to a specific habitat does NOT mean they are separate species or subspecies. For example, lepidus, abyssus, concolor, viridis, and cerberus all have variation (some to a great extent) within their classifications and of course there are a few variations in corn snakes as well......

Morphology is NOT the only method to obtain systematic certainty. There are a few differences between humans that have different geographic origins.

The use of Canebrake or Timber is helpful in getting an idea for general region of origin but that is really as far as it goes.

Overall, in the field of taxonomy there are "spliters" and "groupers" and they will never agree. In science it helps to keep a skeptic view point.

Regards,

T.C.
TCH Zoological

Apply this logic to the differences in A.c.contortrix and A.c.mokasen.

Remember to stay away from phenotype as this will surely SPLIT horridus from atricaudatus far more dramatically.

I'm interested.....

Chris