Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is anyone else as worried about the fact that pure coastals are disappearing in the US pet trade? Rarely do you see them for sale. All you see are Jungles, Irian Jaya and Coastal Crosses and now that Anthony Capponeto is crossing Coastal Jaguars with Irian Jayas it doesn't help matters. I'm not into hybrids of any sort and it really worries me that people seem to take hybridization so lightly and don't seem worried about the Pure Coastals. It seems that eventually, there will be no real Coastals left. They are by far my favorite and deserve better then to be breed into North American Extinction. Sure, there will be Coastals left in Australia but since they can't be exported then it really won't matter will it. I really hope I'm not the only one who feels this way. I'm just afraid they will end up like the Indian Python which as you know is almost impossible to get hold of, partly due to the hybridization of it to the burmese pythons.

I normally don't ride the fence on issues and stand firmly on one side or the other. This issue on the other hand is kinda different. I too once thought that intergrades were completely worthless and muddied up already cloudy lines of undocumented snakes. I do agree with you that with the introduction of morphs comes experimentation with other subspecies, which in turn can become a problem if, and only if, the snakes are not accurately represented. Anyone who crosses subspecies lines should let the potential buyer know the lineage of the snakes. The seller however, can not control what the purchaser does. That's why I only buy from reputable breeders who accurately represent their animals. I feel Anthony Caponetto and the others that have crossed Irian carpets with coastal jags are doing a fine job of labeling them. It's no different than me selling a firearm. I have no control over what is done with it after it's sold. I think that carpets have an awesome potential to produce some incredible animals that are pleasing to most collectors, especially with the morphs that are being produced.

On the other hand I still think "pure" forms or types should be bred for those of us, who like myself, to enjoy. Nothing brings me more enjoyment than having a selectively bred wild type animal. I plan on selectively breeding Coastal types, as well as other morphs. There will still be people who try to keep Coastal type animals available in the US. Trust me. From what I have seen even the breeders that produce the intergrades also work toward producing purte forms as well. As long as each is repesented as such I see no problem with it.

In the past I have been known to completely stress myself over this issue. I hated all intergrades and hybrids. Now I have seen that they too have a place for some collectors, and to be honest, some are quite beautiful.

Some are beautiful I agree but where are all the coastals? The number of pure coastals offered for sale have dwindled considerably. Like I said before, the same thing happened with the Indian Pythons and you see what happened. The Indian Python in captivity is EXTREMELY RARE. I don't see anyone breeding Coastals. The few that do are only breeding Jags and who's to say that's a completely coastal trait and not do to some intergrade with jungles at some point. It simply bothers me to see and especially when "reputable people", like Anthony, decide to work strictly on "morphs" and hybrids or crosses rather than improving the quality of a particular species. It really goes to show that it's all about the money rather than a love for the animal. Morphs can pay the bills and nice looking "normals" won't. I'm not sure if anyone has seen any of these jaguars but they are all tiny. I have yet to see one much over 6'. A quality well cared for Coastal female should easily reach 9' and potentially 10' - 12'. The coastal female I'm currently trying to buy measured 9'10" and is 5 years old. That alone makes me wonder if the jaguar trait is purely a coastal trait and not due to intergradation. Anyway, I still think people need to think before buying these hybrids and force breeders to concentrate on pure species. Once again, like morph prices, if nobody is willing to buy them, things will have to change.

I too used to dislike the idea of hybrids.

My first snake was a jungle... well, what i thought to be a jungle, and what was labelled as such. She turned out be a coastalxjungle. And i love her non-the-less.

How about this for a proposition - I am a purist, and don't like the idea of unnatural hybrids. So, I accept crosses that happen naturally. Apples and apples. Oranges and oranges. I don't accept those that are just asking for trouble. I don't accept mating relations of any sort, be they mother and son, father and daughter, brother and sister, aunty... whatever. When a two 'beautiful people' meet and have a 'handsome' son and a 'beatiful' daughter, do they have their children mate so that they can guarantee 'beautiful' grandchildren? It just isn't acceptable in my book. Still, people will do what people do, and it isn't for me to enforce onto others. I am just expressing my opinion.

Jungle x Coastal - yes
Jungle x Green Tree Python - NO!!!
But believe it, they've tried it.
Chongles? Now that's ridiculous.

Actually,I think they call them Carpondros. I've seen them at NERD. Very pretty but a matter of opinion as far as whether or not it's ethical I guess....kind of like breeding different dog breeds together...I have a "Bagel" at home. Basset/Beagle.I'm sure the breeder of the ACK parents would frown on it but the dogs don't have any issues with it I actually got the "Bagel" at the ASPCA. He came with AKC papers that say he's a pure Basset!!! Trust me;he isn't. This is the kind of thing that I think worries folks about snakes...there needs to be a good handle on what is what...
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JOHN H in NH

Oh okay... do a search for "chondros" in google and you'll see what i mean... i don't wanna mention the name of the breeder on these pages.

Whether the original Jaguars are pure Coastals is irrelevent at this point. By the time they arrived in the US they had been bred through a few generations of Coastals almost eliminating any influence from other subspecies. And the rumor that they are intergrades is all speculation. No one has offered any proof.

On the size issue. I have seen jags well over 6'. I have a male Jaguar from an '04 clutch that is outgrowing all other '04's I purchased, including a couple more coastals, jungles, and Irians. I don't feed him any more than I do my other carpets, but he is growing at a much faster rate. His sibling sister, who is normal, is also growing at this same rate. Considering their growth rates and potential size they could attain makes me think they are coastal in every way. I have never seen carpets from other species grow that quickly. Like I said, I'm not ruling out the slight possibility that they were originated from intergrades, but I haven't seen any proof to support it.

Everyone isn't in it for the money. The money is just a benefit from working with animals we love. I have several pairs of normal coastal types that I plan to breed, in addition to the Jaguar. I would hate to see Coastals disappear from the trade as well, and that's why me, and others, will always produce normal coastals too. There is still a lot of selective breeding to accomplish with normal coastals, and several breeders will accomplish some amazing results in the future.

A number of VERY well known breders are moving into working with crosses. You just may not be privy to that info just yet. Most folks are not so that's not neccesarily your fault to make that judgement. Before you go singling out Anthony Caponetto, take a further look around. It is happening far more than in just Anthony's collection. I know I will certainly be ruffling a few feathers in the future lol. And also, perhaps you may wish to take a closer look at his projects...he is working on breeding "pure" Coastals and other forms as well as hybrids. So don't be so quick to claim he is only works with morphs and crosses.
And as far as the lack of Coastals to be found on the net...it is because of the simple fact that many folks are moving into the exciting world of Jaguars and actually wish to start by breeding "pure" coastal forms of the morph just as you had hoped. So there is much higher demand than ever to track down these "pure" coastals you are looking for.
As previously stated by others, how do we even know we have pure coastals at this point anyway? The Carpet you have pictured could be a cross itself. S why worry? They are captive entities that will never be released into the wild. Therefore, just do what interests you and enjoy the snake, whether it is pure or hybrid, pretty or ugly.

-Yasser
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You're ignorant for a number of reasons and I'm going to show you why. I could go on for days, but I'm just going to touch on the points that you tried to make.

1. You picked the wrong guy to use as an example. I'm not working strictly with morphs. My GQ (Gary Quirk) line of Irian Jayas are verifiably pure. In fact, I have photos of the original WC animals and have verified this with the person who originally imported them.

In addition to my verifiable 100% pure Irian Jaya/Papuan Carpets, I'm also working with supposedly "pure" Jungles and Coastals as well.

2. As for your comment about it all being about the money and not a love for the animals, you're not only ignorant...you're arrogant too.

What makes you think that you know me or know what makes me tick? You apparently don't know me very well and you most certainly can't tell me that I don't love Carpet Pythons. I've been enamored with Carpet Pythons since I was in high school, long before I'd ever heard of a Jaguar Carpet Python.

Furthermore, if I wanted to make money and I didn't love working with Carpets, I'd be working exclusively with Ball Pythons, where the real money is.

3. You haven't seen a Jaguar over six feet? Considering there are probably less than a dozen adult female Jaguars in the United States, how many have you even seen? Didn't think about that did you? Nope...because you're ignorant.

I have a 2003 female Jaguar that is every bit of 7.5 feet long and still growing. Also, a good friend of mine has a female Jaguar in the 7-8 foot range.

4. Not all Coastal females get to 9 feet long. Some localities top out at just over six feet.

5. Carpet Pythons are all the same species (the word you keep blabbering about) and are only broken down into subspecies.

With the exception of Morelia spilota spilota (the Diamond Python), they were all considered M.s. variegata until the early 1990's.

6. As Yasser, said, I'm not even close to the only one doing this. I just happen to be one who's not afraid of what a few ignorant individuals (like you) might think of me.

Idealistic, ignorant individuals such as yourself are entitled to your opinions about "pure" Carpet Pythons (even though most of the Carpets in the US are not pure), but at the same time, please keep in mind that there are a lot of us realists who don't find the simplistic idealogies of ignorant, ill-informed people a good enough reason to find out what can be done by selectively breeding Carpet Pythons.

-Anthony

>>Some are beautiful I agree but where are all the coastals? The number of pure coastals offered for sale have dwindled considerably. Like I said before, the same thing happened with the Indian Pythons and you see what happened. The Indian Python in captivity is EXTREMELY RARE. I don't see anyone breeding Coastals. The few that do are only breeding Jags and who's to say that's a completely coastal trait and not do to some intergrade with jungles at some point. It simply bothers me to see and especially when "reputable people", like Anthony, decide to work strictly on "morphs" and hybrids or crosses rather than improving the quality of a particular species. It really goes to show that it's all about the money rather than a love for the animal. Morphs can pay the bills and nice looking "normals" won't. I'm not sure if anyone has seen any of these jaguars but they are all tiny. I have yet to see one much over 6'. A quality well cared for Coastal female should easily reach 9' and potentially 10' - 12'. The coastal female I'm currently trying to buy measured 9'10" and is 5 years old. That alone makes me wonder if the jaguar trait is purely a coastal trait and not due to intergradation. Anyway, I still think people need to think before buying these hybrids and force breeders to concentrate on pure species. Once again, like morph prices, if nobody is willing to buy them, things will have to change.
>>
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

Well put Anthony. You tell him!
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Jim

"I only brought up Anthony (who does breed quality animals) because his project is a blatant hybridization. By no means was I attacking him on a personal or professional level. He has gained a reputation as a quality breeder for a reason. I just used this situation as a single example of a growing problem." I also said this about you but you apparently missed that so let's not start name calling. Everyone else has been at least civil. I'm sure you can do that. I'm just trying to make a statement about what is looking like a potential problem that nobody seems to be seeing. I know that Coastals are common in the little circle here but in the wider market aren't. It isn't because people are buying them all for Jag projects because, like you said, there aren't that many right now anyway. Everyone (Coastal) I've seen at shows and online have been intergrades, mostly with diamonds in order to drive the price of the young up. This isn't an attack on the larger breeders like Will or Anthony or Yasser who still only breed a small portion of the total every year but more about the smaller breeders and hobbyists who breed whatever to whatever just to get young with no regard for the potential risk it puts on more pure forms of Coastals in the future. I guess I'm the only one that sees the risks.

Just so you are clear on what I said, I really wasn't calling you any names. The word ignorant is an adjective and I was sincere when I said "ignorant in the truest definition." By that, I meant that you are ignorant when it comes to the size of Jaguars, the average size of Coastals, the purity of "Coastals" out there, the fact that most CBB Chondros are of mixed locality and about taxonomy.

Arrogant, another adjective I used, was used because you seemed to think you know what made me breed a Jaguar to an Irian Jaya. If money were a motivator, the last thing I'd be doing is fiddle farting around with Carpet Pythons. I could house four female Ball Pythons in the same space as one female Carpet and produce a ton of pastels without having to worry about making anyone unhappy.

To further demonstrate my point, you're now claiming that every Coastal you've seen is a diamond intergrade (which happens to be a naturally occuring intergrade), when in reality, you cannot definitively make that statement.

You need to step back and look into some of the things that we've brought up here and then make an informed decision if what we're doing is so bad. Breeders have been crossing Carpet Pythons for years, either out of apathy or out of ignorance. The difference here is that we know what we're doing, we have a purpose for it, we're honest about it and most importantly, we document it so that there is no confusion.

There are some good reasons not to do these crosses and I'll be the first to admit that. However, the argument that you've presented was, at least in many of our opinions, an ill-informed one. Had you presented a logical argument, you would have likely had some company on your side of the debate.

Just FYI, I'm by no means a larger breeder...just a larger mouth.

-Anthony
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

I know, its like "hey kid, this is a reptile, its a snake, wanna be a breeder?"

"OK, Linebreed this brother and sister pair together till the eyres pop out or just cross it with anything to see what the skins look like, if you don't like the progeny, dump them in the everglades or simply sell it to the next kid in line and have him repeat your valuable contribution to herpetology."

I have no opinion on particular names, people, anybody specifically, but the general observations of the trade as generally represented by this general phenomenon are shared by many.

Perhaps my view is "unique" because it is not upstream of a particular "market."

Thanks for posting!

The Indian/Burm cross was already mentioned. Now, have you seen the classified ads for the Angolan/Ball cross?

Makes you wanna shake your head.

Hey, I know! Let's take this brilliance to the monitors. Why doesn't somebody smuggle a Perentie into the USA and crossbreed it with a Savanna?

Bill

Bill,
You are a little late, I guess you have not seen flav/argus or black/green tree. If god/evolution can make it good man can make it better!

I try not to get involved in these futile topics, but when you go so far as to start naming individuals, I really think you should have your facts straight. Since imports from Australia were shut down decades ago, Who has a pure coastal? And do you know that with certainty? You honestly look to be displaying pics of hybrids anyway. (Coastals usually have a smudgy head pattern)
Jungles and Coastals naturally intergrade along their borders, so what are you so upset about?

Anyway, who wouldn't love a Leucistic carpet, and would pass up the opportunity to buy one!?! Be it a Jungle/Coastal or whatever! Or if an albino Irian Jaya came into existence in the US market, you would frown own hybridizing with a coastal or jungle. Please!

Besides, if you are that worried, why don't you buy up all hybrids and put them in the freezer.
Or at least by the so called pure coastals on the market, and reproduce them yourself?! If you don't like Hybrids, don't buy them! If there is no demand who would waste their time to supply?

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Best Regards,
Cori
SnakeRoom.net
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Signature file edited; [phw 9/26/04]

For all of you worried over saving "pure" forms of any animal, I've got news for you, interbreeding isn't going to stop anytime soon. It is happening in "wild" populations as well as in captive ones. Even with genetic sampling of wild animals, it has become very clear that defining a distinct species is challenging to say the least. I am not sure there is such a thing as a "pure breed" in captive populations. Especially with Australian pythons. You might save yourself some stress to just accept it, and, if I can push the envelope a little bit, enjoy it. If you want to have animals in your collection with very defined species specific genetic material, there is nothing to stop you. For me, "wild" snakes live in non-captive habitats, and the best we can do for them is habitat preservation. Captive snakes are, well, captives and outside of any "laws of nature" are subject to the forces of captivity (including selective breeding, which operates very differently in captive vs. "wild" animals). My abosolute favorite snakes are diamond/jungle crosses, IMO are the most beautiful snakes I have seen. I have never owned reptiles to make money or start a business, I just like having them. I own two "75%" diamonds and they are gorgeous, great animals. Here is a picture of my 2 year old male...enjoy!(I hope)

Yep, just like I thought, people selling mostly crosses and "Morphs" are defending the hybridization practice and are getting upset (Cori). That means I'm probably right and we should all start saying goodbye to them. Everyone on here keeps saying that there is all of these Coastals for sale out there and that everyone has "projects" going on but nobody has shown me a single one for sale yet. I know Will Leary shows them on his site for sale (or at least as one of their projects) but as far as I know, he's the only one. Show me some other breeders offering them. Not Jags, not Tigers but actually normal Coastals. This is the time of year you should start seeing them for sale but do you? No. As for my male, he was sold to me as a Queensland Carpet 2 1/2 years ago and the only definition I could find for that was a Coastal. He could be an intergrade which is why he's for sale and not part of my breeding projects. I'm not singling out any single breeder as part of the problem but the entire "morph" and hybrid craze that's sweeping the entire snake market. I only brought up Anthony (who does breed quality animals) because his project is a blatant hybridization. By no means was I attacking him on a personal or professional level. He has gained a reputation as a quality breeder for a reason. I just used this situation as a single example of a growing problem. I guess the rest of you simply refuse to see this as a problem. We'll see how it goes then when, all you see is coastal x diamond this, and coastal x bredls that and Irian Jaya x Jag Coastal blah, blah, blah.... Which has already started but nobody seems to care other than me. If anyone can, which I doubt, show me someone with some for sale. I'll be looking to buy a few after the KC reptile show in July. Also show me a pic of a Jag that's over 6-7'. I still have never seen one and doubt they actually exist.

I have a clutch of normal coastals that should hatch in about 2 weeks that I will be offering up for sale. So, maybe there are other people like me who's females lay a little later in the season. Here is my girl when she was laying her eggs.

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Ben

I don't have a lot of time to reply to everything right now, so I'll address a few points. I have a male Jaguar that is only 12 months old and he just measured at 52" and well over 400 grams. He's a coastal, pure ans simple. I've never had any irians or jungles mature at that rate. Also, I feed him sparingly.....so no, I'm not power feeding him.

Also, what Anthony and others have done is not "hybridize" at all. They are called intergrades. As long as no species boundaries are not crossed, and they are not right now, then you will not have hybrids. Hybrids are the crooses that occur between species. Intergrades are between subspecies. To be quite honest, I've heard talk among taxonomists that coastals and jungles, and maybe even diamonds are going to be reclassified and lumped in as the same species. Meaning........they will no .longer be subspecies, just geographic variants of the exact same snake. There is really not that much difference in them at all.

Here is my Jaguar. He just turned 12 months....

Yep, not much difference between Jungles, Coastals, Irian Jayas and Diamonds..... LOL......best joke I've heard all day. That's always one way to defend the intergradation of these diverse animals. Your snake isn't even 5' and you still haven't shown one anywhere near 9'. Growth rate doesn't really matter because I've seen IJs get almost that big in just over 12 months too. The only reason they might get reclassified taxanomically is because of the mass intergradation happening here in North America and not due to anything in the wild.

muahdib4 Said:
"The only reason they might get reclassified taxanomically is because of the mass intergradation happening here in North America and not due to anything in the wild."

Ok,
Pet trade does not dictate how animals are classified. Well at least Ray Hoser hasn't been over at my house counting scales!!
Talk about "LOL" - Seriously I hope you were joking with that comment. If anyone is making taxonomic decisions based on several(well more than that now) generations of captive produced animals, on a different continent I might add. I will give you all of my snakes.
You Funny! Ha!
Cori

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Best Regards,
Cori
SnakeRoom.net
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Signature file edited; [phw 9/26/04]

They will have to start doing that actually...with hybrids like the charpondro....how do you classify that one? It doesn't happen in the wild so taxonomy will have to come about due to captive breed specimens. Many times animals get reclassified due to study in captivity and not due to study in the wild. Of course, range and environment in the wild will always play a part but as fewer animals can be studied in the wild then taxonomy changes will have to come from captive animals. It happens more with mammals and smaller more rare amphibians now but I was speaking more in regards to the future of wildlife in general. Which is really the nuts and bolts of this thread anyway. As animal populations dwindle in the wild (and all animals are) everything will come down to captive populations hence the original question.

I really hate to inform you of the fact that captive animals have absolutely nothing to do with the reclassification of carpet pythons. All the work is being done on Australian snakes in the wild. That needs no further explanation.

To be quite honest, the whole reason they are thinking of reclassifying them is due to their DNA being so identical that they can't even tell the subspecies apart! It appears the only difference in them all is the habitat they live in and their color. I have seen "Jungles" in excess of 8' and Coastals that never exceeded 6', so the snakes really could care less about the boundaries set by man. They ARE indeed much much more closely related than you think.

If it sounds like people are being defensive, it's likely the result of your confrontational and uninformed statements. Several people have offered great info thus far, so I will limit myself to only a few brief comments.

First of all, our '01 male Jaguar, pictured below, measures out between 88-90" (that falls somewhere between 7 and 7-1/2 feet). Your theory that Jaguars are "small" is felicitous, as is your statement that "...a quality, well cared for, Coastal should attain lengths between 9-12,' like mine." (That last quote was obviously paraphrased.) Sorry, but Coastals from different localities differ in size. For example, the ones that originate from the northern portions of their home range are generally smaller (6-8,' ...which comprises the majority of Coastal types currently represented in US collections) than their larger southern counterparts (8-10'). The fact that not ever Coastal is as large as yours has little to do with how well, or poorly, they are taken care of.

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Will Leary
Reptilicus Reptiles
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Confrontational? Perhaps a little. Uninformed? Not in the least. I just posed a question and all I've heard from are breeders who will defend intergradation based on....well nothing other then making something pretty (regardless of potential cost to the animals in the long run) or worth a lot of $$$$. Nobody is worried about even attempting to keep anything resembling a pure (or more pure) coastal bloodline. I do realize in the North they tend to be smaller and most literature suggests that this is due to a natural intergradation with jungles which also explains the fact that northerns have much more yellow than the southerns but the southerns are more "pure" coastal, perhaps not completely, than the northerns. I also never said mine was that large but the female I'm working on buying is over 9'. The only quality info I've gotten is to basically forget about it and people are going to do what they want. That's not info, that's simply saying "leave us alone". I expected more support from people on a forum dedicated to morelia but I guess this is more about breeders pimping their newest intergrade or "morph" and less about captive conservation. I guess the Coastal Carpet will simply be added to the captive ranks of the Indian Python and be gone completely from captive collections.

Below are a few of your confrontational and uniformed statements...

Confrontational:
"All you see are Jungles, Irian Jaya and Coastal Crosses and now that Anthony Capponeto is crossing Coastal Jaguars with Irian Jayas it doesn't help matters."

Confrontational:
"It simply bothers me to see and especially when "reputable people", like Anthony, decide to work strictly on "morphs" and hybrids or crosses rather than improving the quality of a particular species. It really goes to show that it's all about the money rather than a love for the animal. Morphs can pay the bills and nice looking "normals" won't."

Uninformed
"I'm not sure if anyone has seen any of these jaguars but they are all tiny. I have yet to see one much over 6'."

(I noticed you failed to address our 7-1/2' male Jaguar.)

Uninformed
"A quality well cared for Coastal female should easily reach 9' and potentially 10' - 12'. The coastal female I'm currently trying to buy measured 9'10" and is 5 years old."

Uninformed
"I'm not into hybrids of any sort and it really worries me that people seem to take hybridization so lightly and don't seem worried about the Pure Coastals."

I could obviously go on and on like this with some of your more recent posts, but I won't.

Additionally, as Matt correctly pointed out, Coastals and Irian Jayas are the same species, therefore they are not true hybrids. And if you "already realize" northern Coastals are smaller, why would you make the comment that well cared for Coastals should reach 9-12'???

You are right, these forums are in intended for open morelia discussion. However, when you come on here pretending to already know everything and continue to make inflammatory remarks, you should expect a reaction.
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Will Leary
Reptilicus Reptiles
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Sorry, I'm not mad. Anthony is my friend. I thank you for commending Anthony on his breeding projects.
Just so you know. I have close to 40 carpets, maybe over 40. One of which is a beautiful DxJ hybrid, and one jungle. The rest are "Coastals", and honestly I have no plans of crossing subspecies. So I'm sure there will always be some pure forms available.

You are still missing a very important point though. Do you have one pure coastal carpet in your group? I'm sure you will anwser, "Yes". So, How do you know that it is so pure? How do you know that 20 generations ago, or maybe even before you were born, this snakes wild ancestor was feeling kinda freaky, and looked at a jungle funny and produced some hybrids? Forgive my sarcasm, but I am really trying to understand the "Purist" mindset, and the ethical violations in producing any kind of hybrid.
I fail to see the "Problem" for the pet trade industry. If you were releasing these animals back into wild populations, well then maybe morphs/hybrids would be more prone to predators, etc.
Since you are so worried. I urge you then to look into breeding the so called pure forms, I think that there will always be a small market for them.
Oh, and yes, I have a female Jaguar that is 2&1/2 years old, she is already like 7 or 8 feet, I'll get a pic for you over the weekend.

Kind Regards,
Cori

PS If you don't have the Barker's book, Pythons of the World, Vol. I, you should get it.

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Best Regards,
Cori
SnakeRoom.net
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Signature file edited; [phw 9/26/04]

I'm glad you are working with more "pure" coastals and good luck with them. I just thought that people would care more about attempting to keep more pure lines of coastals. I guess Carpet people aren't as nuts about locale, and type as the GTP folks are. I bought the Barkers Books as well as every other Boa/Python book I could get my hands on years ago before I decided to get involved with snakes in the first place. Thanks for the suggestion though, it is a good book. I just get really nervous thinking that the Coastal could go away like the Indian Python did or that so many "morphs" will appear that Carpets will turn into the insanity that's happened to Ball Pythons and Red-Tail Boas.

Well there are reasons for the way the market is/was in regards to Balls and Boas. The Indian Python is Endangered though, so it is really kind of hard to compare them to CB Carpets.

Honestly though, you don't like the morphs at all. I think they are beautiful, and perhaps if anything promote knowledge of snakes in general, and probably help protect wild/natural pouplations in one form or another. I love to talk about my hobby with people who are a bit phobic of snakes, and show them a cool looking animal. After a little interaction with them, they might just spare the next snake they run into while mowing the backyard. ?
Reg,
Cori
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Best Regards,
Cori
SnakeRoom.net
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Signature file edited; [phw 9/26/04]

"I guess Carpet people aren't as nuts about locale, and type as the GTP folks are."

Yet another ignorant statement. You apparently don't know nearly as much as you'd like us to think.

I'm also into Chondros and would have to say that probably 90% of Chondro breeders are not breeding locality specific Chondros.

Trooper Walsh and Eugene Bessette (who I consider a friend) have been crossing Chondro localities for nearly 30 years and documenting them the whole time.

Click the link at the bottom of this page to go to Greg Maxwell's site and read about the crossing Chondro localities. When you get done reading that, take a look at some of Greg's Chondros so you can see WHY they've chosen to produce these so-called mutts.
FineGTPs.com - The Locality Debate

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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

I think you have missed a very important part of what several of us have already addressed. Several of "us" have stated that we do, in fact, plan to continue breeding what is known as "pure" carpets. There will always be a demand for them even while the morphs are being produced. So lighten up a little and maybe buy a few coastals this year so if all of us let you down then you can be the one to keep them going.......I'm through discussing now.

This is just an opinion from a newbie, why not start a (universally accepted) pedigree system for Carpets? I know the argument is how do you prove purity, but you have to start somewhere. They do it with dogs, why not snakes? But what happens if someone lies about the purity? That happens with dogs, although unfortunate, it’s not the norm.

Why even do this? Well…their seems to be a market for documented purity. It wouldn’t be bad just to keep track of lineage to help the problem of inbreeding.

In my humble opinion, I like mutts! As long as the mix doesn’t produce something unhealthy, or has reproductive issues, I don’t mind. By the way, “Dr. F’s” site has some that are something else!

-Remember if everyone who clams to be decedents of the people who came on the Mayflower, They would have needed a bigger boat!

I would be all for it as long as the cost didn't outweigh the benefits. I wouldn't really want to see it drive the prices up to much and it wouldn't really hurt the breeders here who already are very honest about what it is they have and it's lineage. It would have to be done for all snakes and possibly all reptiles (most likely). That would be quite the undertaking for an organization to take care of.

Yes, it would be best to include all reptiles, but I think it would be impractical to do that all from the start. Horses, dogs, cats, ect., are all done through different organizations. I think if you start small you can be more thorough. I don’t think they have an “American Mammal Club”.

First you would have to get the support of the top breeders and get their input into how they would like to see the records managed. Then you would have to establish purity criteria (that alone sounds like a can of worms). Their would have to be a database of some sort, that would have to be maintained. All of this can be done if there is a monetary value and ethical need.

This would allow breeders to charge a premium to all the “purists”. Will this slow down the trade in mixes? NOT A CHANCE! But it would at least, put an end to this argument…some what. As I recall even the AKC has provisions for NEW (mixes) breeds to be introduced. Hmmm.

Finally, another thing to consider is the monetary aspect of it all. If prices go too low you end up seeing the snakes in PETCO and irresponsible husbandry and breeding practices accrue. Maintaining a cretin price point helps the breeders (the people with knowledge)stay in business and the snakes out of the hands of the “disposable” pet trade.

-Just my two cents

...I have a handful of "pure" coastals available now.
But I can't say that here becasue it is a violation of the TOS. SO hopefully you read this before it gets deleted. Sorry Kingsnake Mods, I am only trying to prove a point here.
Feel free to delete if you feel the need.

-Yasser
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For some people, herpetology is a business. At the same time, they love what they do, they love their animals, and they love their jobs.

When you start naming people, you are potentially damaging their reputations and their businesses. That is defamation and it is illegal.

So, don't single out those whom you have never even met. It is rude. It is ignorant. When you name someone, you are no longer just 'giving your opinion'. And it makes everyone who reads your posts think you're a "&%^#head"

Good luck on your mission to save the world.

I do owe some people apologies and Anthony most of all because I used his recent project as an example it wasnt to hurt him or his business because I also said some good things about him that apparently nobody read. I'll end my comments with this. I didn't mean to cause problems, I just forsee a problem, that isn't the result of anyone on this forum or Will, Anthony, Yasser or the other larger carpet breeders (and the other caring carpet breeders) but one I see with smaller breeders mostly at shows or wholesaling animals to distributers. These seem to be the ones intergrading more than I would like to see. Oh and by the way, I see Anthony at least twice a year at the KC Breeders Expo and love to look at his carpets and have bought a few Crested geckos from him as well. Sorry for any hurt feelings this may have caused. I guess I'll just watch things as they come along and see how it goes. I really hope I am wrong about all this but I've been before and nobody thought it was a problem then either.

I think that is great. Nice apology. I have to say I have rarely seen anyone sincerely apologize in a forum post. I will be at reptile shows in Kansas City, and would be glad to meet you. Though a bit heated, vaild points were brought up by everyone. I hope we can all share knowledge and help one another, that's what it should all be about.

Sincerely
Cori Nguyen

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Best Regards,
Cori
SnakeRoom.net
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Signature file edited; [phw 9/26/04]

I'll usually admit when I've been an....let's just say possibly a bit of a jerk. I do respect the work and love of the species these people put into their animals. I'll work on trying to show a little more restraint. I really wouldn't want to alienate myself from anyone in this forum. Thanks for the patience and sorry once again for any comments that might have (and probably did) get misconstrued.

As Cori said, it's rare to see anyone on these forums apologize, but when it happens it's definitely encouraging. I think it shows sincerity and integrity, both of which are admirable characteristics in a person. No harm done here, so don't sweat it! We can all appreciate your concern and opinions.

Be diligent and keep a close eye on the classifieds, and I'm sure you can eventually scoop up some incredible Coastals. They come up every now and again, but you've got to be quick. There are lots of people searching for them. I've also found some beauties at local expos.

Good luck!!!! ...and I also apologize if any of my posts came across too harsh.
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Will Leary
Reptilicus Reptiles
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