Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Had a shock today when I checked on my ball python, she is coiled around a clutch of eggs!! I have had her for about 12 years and she was less than a year old when I got her.

Here is the strange part..she has NEVER been with another snake and all the info I have found indicates a male is needed for eggs to be produced?

Whats going on here? Do they lay eggs without being bred? Immaculate conception?

Help!

Wow! Congratulations. So let me get this straight ... you've had her for 11 years and during that time she has NEVER been housed with another Ball Python, not even another "female?" Then, this year, for no apparent reason, she produced a clutch of VIABLE eggs for you? I can't wait to see what pops out! In the meantime, you'll want to make sure your cage is at the right temperature, between 87 & 90 degrees with lots of humiditity (but without the eggs being in direct contact with anything damp or wet) until you can get an incubator put together. Best of luck to you!

>>Wow! Congratulations. So let me get this straight ... you've had her for 11 years and during that time she has NEVER been housed with another Ball Python, not even another "female?" Then, this year, for no apparent reason, she produced a clutch of VIABLE eggs for you? I can't wait to see what pops out! In the meantime, you'll want to make sure your cage is at the right temperature, between 87 & 90 degrees with lots of humiditity (but without the eggs being in direct contact with anything damp or wet) until you can get an incubator put together. Best of luck to you!

I be the eggs are VIABLE but sterile. If you candle them they will be void of blood vessels that denote a fertile egg. She went through the motions but did not possess the sperm that she needed to fertilze the ovum.

Good luck!! Kev
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www.newenglandreptile.com

So they CAN appear fertile without a sperm donation?..interesting.
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Charles Glaspie

In your reply.....are you hinting around about sperm retention?? Interesting to say the least...your thoughts???

>>In your reply.....are you hinting around about sperm retention?? Interesting to say the least...your thoughts???

No not really....I think ball pythons are very sensitive to sperm kill off over the warmer months. This kills or allows the sperm of a previous season to die off making room for a new suiter.
There is a chance, maybe, if the female bred the previous season and was kept cool for the summer and maybe she could hold something to fertilize the new batch. I doubt this entirely, I believe they are sterile. Go candle them, I would love to know!!!!

I have seen perfect eggs w/o a single blood vessel....I found myself weeping like a little girl denied her birthday visit to chucky - f'n CHEESE!!!!

More than once!
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www.newenglandreptile.com

I attempted to take a picture and this is the best I could do..crappy dang camera.

This egg shows quite a few red veins and they are somewhat visable in the pic. Out of 4 large eggs 2 of them have zero veins with one only showing veins on one side. The one in the pic lights up red all over.

They can still have eggs... but the thing is... more then likely... they won't be fertile... Take one, and shine a super-bright light through them... if they are fertile... they will have little red veins... if not then they will be clear with just the yolk. Good luck either way!

Take one out to look at it? Cripes, she has them in a steel grip and I can no longer see them. They where still visable when I first spotted them during lunch break and I shot the picture. Once I got home for work tonight she has all the bedding gone underneath her and is resting on the glass floor in her "house" (A hollowed out log) with a firm grip on the eggs.

Whats the best way to ease one away from her? I would need to remove the log but once I do it won't fit back over her. I don't really want to upset her...I'm not going to artifically incubate them either way, I would prefer to leave that up to her and nature.Is there any remote possibility they could be fertile?

The only other time she was with other pythons was at the pet store over 12 years ago and she was just a baby.

This is wild, I never ever expected this could happen without a mate. The look on my face had to be priceless when I discovered them today. LOL!

That's just the strangest thing I've ever seen. I know it can happen with lizards, but they aren't fertile either. Would be cool as hell if yours were . Got me fingers crossed for ya.

Quig

I know of one case reported of a female burmese reproducing asexually. The babies were exact genetic copies of the mother.. Im not saying that is what is happening in this case, I would just see if they are fertile before tossing them out.

Unless she is one of those animals that has both male and female parts then it's highly unlikely that they are fertile, they would have to have a males sperm to be fertile, but why they aren't slugs is beyond me. Maybe someone slipped a male in while you weren't looking???? If she is under a log, alowly lift the log off, cover her with a towel and gently unwind her from the eggs, then you can candle them and see if they are viable and put her back.

Has she been off feed? Did you see any ovulation or other behaviors that would indicate she was gravid?

Kinda odd, this reminds me of that scene in jurasic park when they find the eggs on an island full of female dinos - nature finds a way. LOL. Congrats
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Tosha

"Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed." Don Wood

"Of course, that's only my opinion...and I believe I am God." =) Chris Bianco

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

Here is my deal... I found a guy getting rid of a female ball python she was around 2500 grams or more. He wanted 80.00 for it. Well of course I went to check it out and sure enough it was a female and she was a little ruff in condition(old scars) Well here is where it gets tuff the guy said he had he for 11 years and she was around 2 years old when he got her, He didn't have any other snakes and never has, But his NEW wife was not too happy about the snake since they were gonna have a new baby soon, So he decided to sell it in the paper in hopes he would find a good home for it. Like I said he told me that she did have a clutch of eggs 2 years before I got her, I believed him because The LOCAL PET shop got a clutch of eggs from the guy because he didn't know how to hatch them. I candled that clutch of eggs not knowing who they were from at the time, They were good at the time I candled them, but they didn't make it for whatever reason. So anyway after I got the snake home I fed her and she ate a few rats, then I fed her again, about 3 weeks had went by and she swelled up like a balloon, so I thought Oh crap this snake is Ovulating so I tossed my pastel male in with her they bred and the count was on, she ended up laying 9 eggs 5 good and 4 slugs. But during incubation something happened to the eggs and all but one died, well the one hatched and here is what I got....A WEIRD BABY

I know this is different because a male was with her but my question is if the male was introduced ON OVULATION that should have been too late right......

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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
0.1 Spider(04)(RDR)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (SOLD)

If you see a female ovulating it is 100% DEFINATLY to late to throw a male in there with her.

Bryan Kollwitz

i thought you had 30 days after ovulation to get her locked up fter that ,next season it is

Unlike Burmese and other types of Pythons, Ball Pythons can not twitch their muscles to create heat in order to incubate their eggs. The egg temp is entirely dependent on external temperature. Your snake is in an aquarium, not in the wilds of Africa. There is no "nature" and she can't do anything to help her eggs. It's up to YOU to provide the right temperature and humidity for them to survive and hatch.

I'd strongly recommend you get a hovabator at the very least, get the temperature calibrated, add your vermiculite and water solution, get some "egg crate" from a hardware store (in the lighting isle) and place your eggs on it so they do not come into direct contact with the moistened vermiculite. Do not turn the eggs over by accident. Unlike bird eggs, they need to stay right side up during the entire incubation process or they will die. There is a much better chance of success if you DO get involved than if you simply leave it up to chance.
Regarding candling your eggs, I found a cool little LED flashlight for under $8 at K-Mart that gives off no noticable heat and does a great job of candling eggs. If they have veins, their viable. If the don't they're not, but you need to get prepared in advance before you take them away from your female so that, if they are, you can begin incubating them immediately.

Unfortunately, it's up to you. "Nature" ain't part of the equation, here.

they are soft and pointed...nice and big but still look like duds to me./......

abd if she never bred a male they are duds as well.....

feed her up and get her bred for next year......

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np

Well, I placed a towel on her head and attempted to retrieve an egg but they seem to be stuck together and I am afraid of damaging them. I attempted to shine a bright flashlight on them but revealed nothing. How can I seperate an egg without damaging it?

Don't try to, just remove the entire clutch. They glue themselves together pretty quick after being lay'd, and trying to separate them will likely just destroy them.

If you can manage to get a small flashlight up to one,then here is what you want to see.

Here is a shot of a dud that came with three fertile ones this year.

..the three that were fertile.

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Charles Glaspie

Thanks for the pics!

Ok, I found a small flashlight and managed to candle a couple eggs without disturbing them to much and guess what...RED VEINS!!!

Yikes!! Looks like I need to get busy making an incubator!

Please do make ever effort to hatch these eggs as the resulting babies would be scientifically important. There is a case in Europe where a female burm laid fertile eggs which tests indicated where clones of her but unfortunately the political climate prevented them from trying to hatch babies. To me a live offspring that could be tested throughout it's lifespan would remove a shadow of doubt as to if this really was a documented case of parthogenisis.

I've experimented with maternal incubation and have also heard of others having good luck with it but perhaps this is a case to go with a more tried and true method since this could be way more important than any high $ morph. Better yet, post where you are and perhaps a local breeder with experience incubating eggs already has an incubator going near by or could help you set one up to avoid the risk of transpiration.

I am located in Sparta WI. Just got off the phone in a search for an incubator and the local Farm&Fleet has one..on my way to pick it up now.

Put the eggs inside something like a plastic shoebox with only a few small vent holes (if any, the lid isn't air tight on most) to keep the incubator element from drying out the eggs. Often the eggs are half buried in just moist (not wet, just barely sticking together) vermiculite. Shoot for around 89 deg F (check the temp right next to the eggs) and try not to rotate the eggs while moving them. You will probably need to make the incubator taller to accommodate the pile of eggs (and the shoebox). If you can find a pet store that sells fish with the old style square Styrofoam shipping boxes the lid to your incubator might fit right on one. Hopefully the ones with veins are fertile (I think I heard recently that even then it might not be a sure thing but it's certainly a very good sign).

I just got home with a HovaBater incubator and lined the bottom with a perlite and vermiculite mixture and a small amout of water. Placed a humidity gauge in there along with a thermostat and am just waiting for it to reach proper temp.

This is exciting! She has been on the eggs for 24 to 28 hours or so and it may be awhile before the incubator is ready, is this a problem or will it be ok? It will be later this afternoon before I will have any help transferring the eggs to the incubator.

Yeah...let her handle it until the incubators temp has become stable...However,once they are placed inside you may have to tweak it again(with the increased mass and all).

Just be sure to watch them for any signs of to much/versus/to little moisture..
...ie to wet on the bottom eggs
...or excessive dimpling(which indicates dehydration)

Good luck to you.
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Charles Glaspie

Like Randy already said above:
It's best to have them inside another container inside of that hoverbator..Which acts as a thermal/humidity barrier.

Also:
Since i was not very good at judging the amount of water needed.I decided on a different route,with a zero substrate method(a plastic grid on perlite).Which absolutely demands the use of a sealed internal eggbox.In this way...i was left without the worry of getting them to damp while still supplying them with the 100% humidity needed.
Which wound up saving my first clutch,due to the fact that i did in fact add to much water to my initial attempt(with just vermiculite).


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Charles Glaspie

Well here they are...

The top egg is the one full of red veins with the lower left one only showing them on half of the shell. The other two have no signs of fertility. The temp is at 88-89 degrees with about 80% humidity.

Work on keeping the humidity at 100%,but watch that they do not get waterlogged on the bottom at the same time.
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Charles Glaspie

Put them in a seperate container inside the hoverbator or they will all dehydrate and die (if they are alive). You current setup will not work very well.

Yep, those heating elements in the drafty incubator will dry them out too soon. I know there isn't much clearance in those incubators and your eggs are adhered in a pile. You could try cutting the no vein bottom ones out so as to use a really low profile food container (with a few small air holes) but I think it would be best to check aquarium fish stores for a square Styrofoam box to sit under the incubator lid. Unfortunately they seem to be switching to a rectangular box that doesn't happen to fit the lid so you could make your own extender ring to fit between the original incubator bottom and top out of a sheet of Styrofoam glued and tooth picked together.

Another thing I did back when I used that type of incubator was to use a remote probe thermostat with the probe in with the eggs to regulate the heat. I set the wafer (original incubator thermostat) just a little higher as a backup. The problem with getting the needed distance and separation between the heat elements and the eggs is that there could be an inconsistent gradient between the temp at the wafer and the temp of the eggs. Sorry to get so complicated. They are pretty tough and would probably due fine without the separate thermostat (especially if your background temp is stable) but I would definitely recommend a container. You'll need one anyway if a baby hatches to keep it from burning it's self on the heating element.

I saw a story on the discovery channel about a 4-5 year old rattlesnake. It was a virgin Captive bred female...and it gave birth to 5 male snakes.
The theory is that with no male available, the snake had a "built in" way of insuring the survival of it's species.
It was very interesting, and they are raising the surviving male to see if it is not sterile.

Reptiles man...always surprising people.

I am suprised that with all the people on this forum that no one thought of spontaneous parthenogenesis. It is a condition where a mother gives birth to exact clones of herself. It generally happens with lesser developed species, but did happen in a burmese python at the Ambsterdamn Zoo a year or two ago. This could be the first time it has been documented in ball pythons, we will have to see if anything hatches and if so what they look like. If they look like the mother than it may be a good idea to do gel electrophoresis on the babies compared to the mother to see if they are naturally occuring clones or not.

Just thought I would throw out that possibility.

PS. To anyone interested the skinhead ball is doing great, eating like a pig.
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1.21 ball pythons
1 speckled kingsnake
1 snapping turtle
1.0 argentine horned frog
1.1 English Bulldogs