Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Time to bring up the politics again it looks like. In reference to the recent articles about the Alabama "Snake Man" and his false water "cobra" it appears what I feared is coming to pass. That is that the term "venomous snake" in ban legislation is being extended from genuine hots (potentially lethal venomous snakes) to any snake with a venom gland no matter how innefective it is much as the term "saturday night special" or "assault weapon" can be extended by anti gunners in certain types of gun ban legislation to increase the scope of the ban.

Actually the CLASSIC beginner snakes, the Garter and closely related Ribbon snakes (both genus Thamnophis) have the same type of venom as this false water "cobra" and can now be banned and euthanased by creul methods if they come from out of state dealers in Alabama according to the strict reading of the law the "authorities" used here in this false water "cobra" case.

but since when is a garter snake considered venomous? This isn't an attack, just a question.

Best Wishes,

Chris

Well, How old are you?? Dr. Findley Russell documented an envenomation of a young child by a San Francisco Garter Snake 25 or 30 years ago. The kid had systemic effect from the bite, non-life threating but bona-fide Hematological symptoms.

Cheers!

Al
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Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but foot prints. Not a law, just a good idea.

I am 21 years old, so it's been out a bit longer. I hadn't heard of that incident. I have also never heard of garter snakes being "venomous" in any way shape or form. Very interesting. I LOVE THIS FORUM!!!

Chris

I see this case as part misunderstanding and possibly just an attempt to go after a known drug trafficker. I think the responses from here were appropriate. The false water cobra is also a well known "rear-fang." Many legislations actually want to "loosen" "rear-fang" laws. This could be in order to tighten other venomous laws but either way I think foreseeing garter snakes as illegal because of venom is still a stretch. Where did you find a study on the proteins found in thamnophis venom?

My information in this area mainly come from the work of Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry out of the University of Melborne in Australia.

He has shown that virtually ALL "colubrids" with the possible exception of those than have essentially retaken a python/boa type lfes style (such as Rat, Corn, Fox, King, and Pine/Bull/Gopher snakes) pack glands with some degree of "heat" (Elapid nurotoxins and other classic snake venom elements).

That was not my question. I am aware of a venom gland in colubrids but I am not aware of any specific venom studies of Thamnophis specifically. Where did you read about specific proteins and enzymes found in Thamnophis? If it is in one of Fry's papers I must have missed it. I REALLY want to be directed to this. I have been curious about their venom for a while and have not been able to find a detailed study on them. Thanks in advance.

The reason that I picked Thamnophis for this discussion is its status as the classic "beginner" snake genus along with the fact that the larger members of the genus have been known to produce some rather nasty though not lethally serious envenomations similar to what these false water "cobras" which are the subject of the Alabama "Snake Man" story can produce, particularly if the keeper is feeding the snake when the bite occurs. (Most "colubrid" envenomations in humans seem to occur while the snake is being fed and the snake "bites the hand that feeds it" during feeding excitement. With the exception of truely deadly "colubrids" like Boomslangs "colubrid" venom glands actually seem to "dry up" or "shut off" in most defensive bite situations.)

I am not sure where to go with this. I know why you picked Thamnophis and if you saw the letter I had prepared, I had done something similar. I believe your comment on feeding response bites is possibly in reference to the H. nasicus bite posted all over the net. I had actually talked with someone about a FWC bite which did cause a lot of swelling. The person had gone to the hospital and they were trying to get ahold of AV to treat him. He explained this was not a cobra bite and the animal was a false water cobra, not Naja. If they treat him with that AV he could die. He explained all he needed was a Benedryl shot. Finally the situation got under control when they were able to call a venom expert to varify this. Could have been very bad though.

Anyway, I see you are kind of walking in odd directions in regard to my question about proteins found in thamnophis. I have read Dr. Fry's studies and I am aware of his colubrid findings. What I am not aware of is a detailed study on specific proteins and enzymes found in thamnophis. You aluded to knowing where I could find such. I can assume myself there will be some similarities to much of the other studies done on colubrids but I want to see for myself what they have found in Thamnophis. If you do not know, it is alright. If you know where I can find this information (or anyone else does) could you please direct me to it.

Thanks again in advance.