Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am having a problem with these little 1/8 inch crickets I just got in. They hop like you wouldn't believe!!! The little guy of mine is willing to chase them until he can catch them and gobble them down, but the little girl just isn't willing to work that hard. So she's not been eating. The ants will be here next week, but she's going to need to eat or she might not make it. Is there a way of slowing down the crickets. Please . . . there's no way I can pull off any legs on the crickets. That just ain't happening. But if there's ANY other suggestion for someone who can't touch crickets, that will help the little girl eat, please share. Thanks!

Put the crickets in a samll container and put it in the refrigerator for a hlf an hour or hour then pur them in, they will be slowed down. Are you dusting the cirkets at all with vitimins? One off the wall thought, before the female lays babies they quit eating, if you turn her over are ther any lumps in her belly on the sides etc. that may look like eeggs? Compare her shape relative tot he male, is she more bloated and bupy on the stomach? It;s jsut a thought.....also are you spraying the cage pants or rocks or the wall of the cage with water? These lizards need to be hydrated more than others.....
you can get a regular water dropper and take some water in and put a drop on top of the nose in front where the mouth is and if they are thisrsty you'll see them start lapping the water. The can take a suprising amount in, so if they keep on the water dropper let them drink. Hope all the rest is going well.....
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Phrynosoma.com

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

Thanks for the reply. I checked the girl and doesn't appear to have any bumps or bulges (no bumps, no bulges . . . don't we all wish!!) and she will TRY to eat, it's just that when they jump up 3-4 inches she just gives up. Her tail wags, she just isn't determined enough. I left her in there for about an hour and she did manage to eat about 3 of them. I'll try the refrigerator thing. No, I haven't been dusting the crickets. What exactly should I dust them with?? We were initally putting only 1-2 in at a time. Now we're putting more like 4-5 in at a time. Is that too many??

I've tried EVERYTHING to get them to drink. I can not seem to do it. I put a drop of water on their nose and they sit there frozen until it drops off. They don't seem to like that at all. I spray the sides of the cage, rocks, etc and of course, their backs and top of their heads so it can drip down (they don't like that either). Not sure how else to get them to drink??? They will sometimes go and lie in their pool, but not really drink out of it in the conventional sense.

Also, I think I'm going to end up probably keeping these guys. I was hoping someone with lots of experience and knowledge of these little creatures would adopt them but it's looking like that might not happen, so they may have no where else to go that's trustworthy. The problem is, I need to make some changes if they're going to stay with me. Right now, they're in a 10 gal aquarium which I understand is like trying to live your life in your living room. Very unsuitable. So, I'm going to try to put something together. (Me . . .who's never nailed two boards together my life!!!). I found this "thing" at Menards. Could someome take a look at it through the link below and tell me what they think?? I would cut it off at 3 feet and have one on the other side, then have a 2 foot piece on the front and the back. I'd use a staple gun and screens (like for a door) for the openings so it would be well ventilated and the insects will stay in. It would be 3 feet by 2 feet and a foot high. Then I'd make some sort of a screened in top with latches on so it could be on or off. Would this be suitable?? I need to put something half way up the sides so they and the insects won't climb up the screen and the sand won't come through. Don't know what. I don't like glass aquariums because they retain so much heat. Any problems with it as you can see?? I just need to figure out what to attach to the bottom. Any opinions would be greatly appreciated. I'd like to get opinions before I do anything to it because if it doesn't seem suitable, I'll just take it back and start at square one.

Sorry for the long post.

Thanks!!
Laurie
Link

Oh!! Forgot to mention, that I would still probably, for the most part, feed them in their 10 gal aquariums, they don't have so far to catch their dinner that way!

Laura-I don' want to spend your money for you, if you read our site it usually is somewhat costly to get a set-up for horned lizards. A pair like this would be a 40 gallon glass aquarium. And the glass aquarium because it does hold the heat is good -less electricity on the bill to do the job. In 40 gallon they should have plenty of room and still eat with no problem as well.

THere are several reptile vitamins on the market, some I think are posted on our site. THere is rep-cal and others, it is a very fine powder and you put a little in the cricket contianer and put the crickets in and then shake them. Because of the hairs all over thier body the dust of the vitiman powder sticks to them. THenb when they eat a cricket they get vitmins as well. YOu don't need to do that with ants, just the occassional crickets.

I looked up the laws on this specie in Montana it looks to be a specie of concern, so I don't know if you can legally keep these without permission, even though your trying to help. With your permission I would be gals to call the fish & wildlife department on your behalf and see if we could find someone that would take them, or if you could be allowed to legally transport or mail them to someone such as a zoo, etc.

In order to legally keep these you'll need a permit. THe web-site for non-game animals is down at the moment so I had to go all over the internet to get the little I have.

It's good the female is eating but she just doesn't sound like she's really eating them up. IS she smaller or bigger than the male? IF she is wiggling her tail thats a good sign. BUt I am still concerned she's not eating like the male. My question to you is how warm do you have the hot side of the cage? And what size bulb do you have? I am going to e-mail cable since he has these ask him about hydration.

The cage idea you have is o.k. YOu could use shade cloth and staple them on the sides with a staple gun. THe front you need some kind of border to hold in the sunstrate for the floor at leat 6 inched and then you could but 1/4 mesh screen so the sun can come in and if outside they can get real sun. JUst don't leave in direct sunlight. THe sunstrate can be home dopot playsand, but since these lizards are found at high altitiudes as well they like opine needles and other ground flora found in there mountian envirionmnets. You'll need to put a couple large flat rocks proped off the ground so they are very sturdy-I mean very sturdy so they can't fall from their position and used for a hiding place if its too hot. So that might work, you'll need a lid with the 1/4 screen to keep cats and other animals out. But if you got the 40 gallon aquarium with the right lighting you'd be fine as well. I've given you some options, I think calling the fish & wildlife people may not be a bad idea either.....................
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Phrynosoma.com

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

The zoo here is wanting them, but I was told that a zoo is unacceptable because they don't have the knowledge of SHL or usually the skill/willingness to do what it takes to keep them healthy. Also, too many people gauking at them.

I keep the warm side of the cage at about 82. The bulb is a 60 watt.

The girl is the large one. She ate great up until she started shedding (which is done now) and when we got the new batch of crickets that hopped so much more and higher than the store bought crickets which we were using. Up until then, they both ate about a dozen a day. Infact, I started separating them to eat because the girl ate so many and so fast that I was concerned the little guy wouldn't get what he needed. I'm going to try refridgerating the crickets today and see if that helps.

I looked on a site which showed what states it was illegal to keep them in and North Dakota or Montana didn't appear to be on that list. I saw some statistics regarding HL in the wild and it looked like only 9-50% of them survive in the wild. Those don't seem like good odds to me. However, good point about game and fish. Didn't know who could take them and release them if I go that direction.

Well, thanks for the tips.

Laurie

If I can chime in with a few thoughts. First, it is probably quite illegal to release them at this point. Most F&G regs say if you don't release it without removing it from the site you caught it then it can't be released. Further, if you are willling to care for it then it is probably fine to just keep it. It may be illegal, but you adopted them and are trying to do the right thing. If you do contact F&G they may want to take them. Who knows what they will do. Zoo, release, donate to someone with experience. I have no idea. I don't think they'd try to hunt you down for what you've done here.
About the species. These are different from most other HL's. They come from the high country as Lou has said. The warmth of the day tends to be much shorter than for the desert varieties. The ants are largely different (which may be a problem with the order you've placed), and the night time temps tend to be much lower. We were just up in SHL country about sunset and we felt like we needed a jacket. While down in the desert it would have been in the high 80's.
Lou has given you good advice on the crickets. Be careful with the ants. Only a couple at a time. You might find they'll eat a couple and then just quit them altogether. If you can find carpenter ants this will be a big help. Also moths and other bugs you might find around. (Excepting the notorious fireflys).
I have had short horns drink from both the dropper, the dish and off the glass. Don't give up. Because you have the dish they may just be drinking while you're not looking. Take it out for a couple of days and see how they respond to the dropper. Most HL's don't like water at first, but in my experience SHL's take to it the best.
Have you read Montanucci's article on keeping SHL's? It might be of some help.
I admire your fortitude. Most folks would not commit as much effort.
Great job!
Cable
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www.phrynosoma.com

Thanks for the encouragement. I really needed it today!!!

No, I didn't think they'd hunt me down, for one thing . . .I wasn't the one who took them from Montana. I just watched them for a neighbor because they just threw a dozen crickets in a couple days earlier, called it good and were just going to keep them "til they die" as she put it. They were going out of town, and I was concerned about no one to take care of them or feed them. So, she brought the aquarium over and they haven't been back to her house since. She said they were "done" with them but would take them back if I didn't want them. So, it's been quite stressful. I'm not a "critter" kind of woman. Don't like creepy crawly things. Hate bugs of all sorts. Have never held anything cold blooded since I was a very young girl. Couldn't even hold these guys for a week. My 6 year old son did most of that for me (he's very gentle and knows not to "handle" them just for entertainment. Now I have 500 crickets in my garage, mealworms in my fridge . . .and I ordered ants. I also find myself babytalking to lizards and feeling quite attached. I can't believe how my life has changed in 2 weeks!!! It's pretty cute, I take them outside everyday to get some actual sunshine for about 20 minutes or so. I put something up on 3 sides then sit on the 4th side so they can't "escape". When I put my hand down, the little girl will come over and crawl into my hand and sit and look around. Adorable. But, maybe she just thinks my hand is a rock or something!! Still adorable.

I know Harvester ants may not work,I ordered only 100. If they eat them well, I can order more. The site said that SHL may not eat them and advised only getting 100 to try. I don't know any other options to get her to eat. The 1/8 inch crickets hop too high and fast, she won't eat those. I tried refridgerating for about 45 minutes, but they all died. So I'm stuck. A moth seems awfully big for them to eat. Our moths up here are pretty big. Certainly bigger than their heads. I guess I can try some other bugs.

Carpenter ants . . . I don't have a clue where to get those. Looked online and can't seem to find a place you can buy them. I'm hoping by next week sometime this will be resolved and they'll have a good home to go to. I don't want them to be devoured out in the wild. I want them safe, happy, and fed. That's it in a nutshell.

Mick has walked me through most of what I need to do. It's just now and then I hit a snag like when she started shedding and I didn't realize they shed and it scared me and now with her not eating because the crickets hop too much and yet they all died when I refridgerated them. Such little critters to cause all this commotion. Lucky for them they're so darned cute!!! Well, thanks guys for the help and to Mick for all you've done. I'll continue to work on it until a solution is found this week.

BTW, Mick did email me a copy of Montanucci's article and I did find it helpful.

When HL's shed they can slow down on their activities so don't be surprised if she picks back up again.
Also, you might try refrigerating the crickets for much shorter periods until you find that just right time that slows them but doesn't kill them.
I know what you mean about growing attached. My wife would have never even considered them as pets but now she feeds and cares for mine when I'm at work and talks to them too.
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www.phrynosoma.com

Hey there,

I thought I might add a side-note that I didn't read on the thread that might be useful to you. You were saying that you move the lizards to a feeding cage. It might do all parties well to feed them where they live, just in case they get stressed out. The HLs I've dealt with get very antsy (pardon the pun) when handled, so I don't know if thats the case, but something to think about.

On a slightly related note, I was observing my female DHL today, and I only now (after two years) notice how skittish she is of me. I pour in about twenty ants at a time so she can forage, she has a 5'x3'1/2" pen to herself, and she would eat only the ants that were close to her. She got a little bit brave when the ants weren't getting any nearer, and she started to walk around and pick them off, careful to remain away from my shadow. I had to shift my weight, as my leg was falling asleep, and she buried herself when my shadow touched her. I took a step back, and she uncovered and began to eat like a champ. I dunno. It made me think anyway. So I hope that helps you.

Good luck and thanks for caring so much about those HLs.

-Phil

Thanks for the tips!

The problem is, the aquarium is very small ~ only 10 gal. That's because it was only meant to be for a very short time that I'd have them and has turned into 2 weeks. So I have 2 10 gal aquariums and put the little boy in one to eat and the girl in the other one (the little girl used to get to the crickets faster than he could and I didn't want him to miss out so I separate them to eat. Now he gets to them faster. He's smaller and "darts" across the aquarium to get them. They seem very settled in their "home" and like their "stuff". I can try keeping her in their regular aquarium and just remove the "stuff" or the crickets run and hide right away. They really need something much bigger I know, but I don't want to spend the $200 on a 40 gal if I'm only going to have them another few days to a week. If I kept them, then for sure that would change.

I too have noticed that she eats better if she's not being watched. The boy could care less and starts getting excited before the crickets hit the sand. So, I have too started backing away and leaving the room when she eats.

You put that many ants in at once? I thought it was supposed to be only 3 at a time?? Maybe because they're used to the ants or you use a different type of ants or because you have more experience that you can do that. I'm thinking I better stick with only a few until I can see what happens. She does feel overwhelmed if too much "movement" of prey is in there. DOESN"T like it when they crawl on her, etc. And if there's too many it's almost like she doesn't know where to go first so she doesn't do much unless one walks under her nose. She used to be much more aggressive when I used a little larger cricket (still considered "small" where they didn't "hop" as far, often or as high.

Thanks again!

Yeah,

I put quite a few ants in there at a time, because I want to encourage the foraging behavior, rather than always look to me for food. I think she does take my presence as a cue to come out, as she will be gone (dug in, or hiding under something) when I first approach her pen. If I stay outside for about ten minutes (the time it takes me to gather ants) she magically appears. Gotta love that camoflague. =) But yeah, she can take 20-30 ants no problem. I normally dump them in as I get 40 or so. Her record remains around 130 ants. I feed her in the afternoon; 4-5 pm. I feed 70-130, depending on her initial feeding response. If she is grabbing like there is no tomorrow, I feed her more. Thats what seems to work for me.

Another side note, originally, I had a male with here, and he always ate like a champ whether I was right above him, or five feet away. It probably is an individual thing, but could also be a sex thing? Hmm. something to research. hehe.

-Phil