Reptile & Amphibian Forums

You know some of us regulars on this forum are known as Pituophis, and basically snake lovers and that is a great thing. Many of us have been through our share of nightmares with problems in our collections. I have said before the gratification of saving a sick snakes life is as great or greater than hatching out babies. I have no problem with sharing any info that will help out a fellow snake lover BUT!!!!!!! What bugs me is not often enough are there replies to tell us how our input helped the people asking for help? I see someone in distress and answer their cry for help and actually check the forum[S] over n over looking for news on the situation. Many times the person never comes back to post on the forum[S] about anything. I have spent a lot of money at vets and time learining how to properly handle these things that may affect us all at one time or another and it was hard on me in many ways. I have saved people money and saved thier snakes on a few occasions and barely had a thank you. This is not directed at any of the recent posts, but I am hoping that if anyone reads this they may think to return to the forum to share news good or bad about what they went through, as their input may help others too. Tom Stevens

Mike B

In January I couldn't afford a vet, and you gave me advice on the rat snake forum, which I followed as best I could, and one of my little obsoleti died. He (probably) had parasites, and you advised me to get panacur, and how to dose him. I have a friend who claims that it's semi-hard to OD a snake on panacur, and that he probably died from septic shock after the worms died. Now, I'm not blaming you - if he didn't die from the panacur (or the septic shock, or whatever it really was that killed him), he'd have died from the worms. I'm just saying you might be better off not knowing what happens to the animals people ask you about. There are lots of people on these boards who are doing things for the first time, or with severely limited budgets (me on both counts), and unfortunately things can turn out badly.

What a crock of caca! I stand by what I just said, I want too know good or bad....what happens happens. You know many people dose snakes they bring into their collection with meds like Panacur and Flagyl whether they're sick or not. They are safe drugs and can possibly help. Many vets are against this practice, as you should want too see the snakes stools and do fecals before you start dosing so you have a better idea of what is necessary if anything. Keep in mind I also said I have spent hundreds, matter of factly over 2000 bucks at the vet over the course of a few years both in preventative efforts, and from receiving sick snakes too, also parasites and bacterial infections. My vet told me some of things I was doing was not even entirely needed as especially in the case of parasites there can be, and usualy are small amounts of them within a snakes natural gut flora. He went on to constantly commend me on my efforts to keep my animals in optimum health and I have yet to lose a snake to something that could have been cured. I for one do not use that Panacur paste, I use liquid from a vet. You were in a bind and I gave you the cheapest way to attempt to help the snake other than leave it with no treatment at all. I have no recollection of anything except your desperation. I am constantly helping newbie snake keepers and I love doing so, but people who do not diddly about keeping snakes who go out and buy or collect one and end up in a crisis come on here crying help help and it bothers me, as I do not like to hear about snakes on the verge of death because someone cannot afford to do the right thing. I myself have used Albon, Flagyl, Panacur, Baytril and some other stuff I can't even pronounce never mind spell. I spent money on my animals in times when I should not have but keeping animals is a responsibility! Now here's some info from a flippin 10 dollar book about Parasites
Panacur, this group of drugs IS EXTREMELY SAFE, with Panacur having a margin of safety up too 5000[that is not a misprint!] normal dose in mammals. To the authors knowledge, a reptillian directly associated with the use of Panacur in snakes lizards or turtles has NEVER been reported.
So for your friend who says it is semi hard to OD on Panacur, well I guess he is pretty correct huh? This is the kind of nonsense that makes good people not want to participate on forums at all. I aint going anywhere....and I will still give advice as best I can. If things do not work out, well I am sorry to hear about that but I still want to know. There may always be a chance that people reading what happened will be that much more aware of what's going on in thier own collections.
Tom Stevens

Look, I said I wasn't blaming you, and if you read the post you'd see that I also said it probably wasn't because of the panacur, but either way the animal is dead now no matter what your book says. You might want to put down the panacur and get yourself some Xanax. Sorry I didn't post it sooner, but some of us aren't in a hurry to go and report on a board that an animal in our care died, especially considering how many a$$@%! flamers are desperately waiting to be ten kinds of self righteous (remind you of anyone?) and act like they're the only ones who take care of their snakes. Just getting into a bind doesn't make someone a horrible keeper. You're the one who said, "what happens happens." That is the only animal I had that died and I wasn't, and still am not, particularly proud of it. And what's more is that I'd bet you've made mistakes before, too.

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I wish more people would help out like some do, most of my questions go unanswered. I am just getting into Pits and I would love to breed them like I have with my Ratsnakes and Kings but often no one answers the posts unless they really know the person or are friends and such, also if it has photos.
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David Hiscock.

Ya know I have to agree the King forum has some members who seem to get tired of answering questions which often come up but the archives are full of the basic info most people are looking for. Some people do not realize sites like this one offer a chance to get a response from experienced keepers and get so excited they rattle off a bunch of questions which can make ya think,"why didn't this person look into these things before buying a snake?". Like I said I enjoy lending a hand when I can, and honestly some guys I look up too who have been breeding snakes for decades longer than myself seem interested to know how I made out in my own snake health related dilemas. That is because the more you know about these things the easier it may be for someone to come to a conclusion on the fastest way to deal with something. It is a scary thought to think a contagious bug could travel through your collection, I have heard many horror stories on people losing everything and I did not want to be one of them. I spent so much money on one of these times that my wife barely spoke to me for a week, money doesn't grow on trees ya know? However keeping things under control and having your snakes pull through and thriving is worth it. One of the points I was trying to make was that it would be extremely helpful for people to understand a little bit about what to look for as far as symptoms of illness and also how to treat these problems. Vets are expensive but if you make the most out of one or two visits and ask a ton of questions you may learn how to take care of many of these things on your own in the future. Owning a miscroscope and learning how to do fecal exams is one thing I feel anyone with a large collection should have. Pits are awesome to keep and breed. What do you hope to work with? If you would like to discuss things off the forum feel free to email me. I am always up to talk about snakes Tom Stevens nokturneleclipse@aol.com

A lot of novice herpers do get attacked on these forums for having snakes die or get sick. It amazes me how mean some people can get on these boards. I would not expect for many keepers who feel they may have made a mistake to post when they have a negative outcome. No one wants to get ripped after having a snake die. However, novice keepers are lucky people like you are around, but there are just too many that prefer to attack than help.

I hear ya, I too have been frustrated by the negative replies to some posts. That is why I said I will not be going anywhere no matter what, and I hope to help people. Many things that can make snakes ill are treatable without much difficulty. I just want beginners to know there's more to keeping snakes than a 10 gallon cage, hot spot and 1 mouse or two a week ya know? Vets are damn expensive, I know first hand. But once you have a common knowledge of treating snakes you can chose one of the common drugs to treat the animal and very possibly save the snake a lot of discomfort and even it's life and that should be important to all of us. Thanks for writing Tom Stevens

First to ChicagoPhsc?? SP sorry if I got that wrong but i was interested in talking to local Chicago herpers so if you are around Chicago and are interested i am in Evanston. Drop me a Email
Snakesunlimited@SbcGlobal.net

Now to Tom I am with you on the feedback deal. And also on being nice to newbies... to a point. I have no patience for someone who ask a question and is given advice (ie feeding WC food) and then comes back and ask why his snake is sick because he went against what he was told. That is when I have no remorse about tearing someone apart. Its just me. I don't fault anyone for not knowing better but if your are told right from wrong and choose wrong just to see what happens than you will get no quarter on this site. Curiosity killed many a snake slowly and painfully.

People who buy turtles for kids also piss me off because I have heard too many times about a turtle that died of old age at the age of ten. The poor things out grow their shell and suffocate because nobody bothers to find out about the needs of the ten dollar turtle. That another topic and forum though. just dont get a booth next to me at a show selling turtles without giving a full care sheet with each turtle and we will be OK Not that you sell turtles I am still angry at the guy from the booth next to me at a show this weekend and went totally off topic. SORRY LOL
Later Jason
P.s. Glad you are here Tom

I did not mean to be obnoxious...as I was called LOL. I just wanted to stress the fact I have spent a lot of cash learning things from a vet or 3, and still speak with vets before I administer meds for advice and instruction. I offer to share the info I basically paid for, at no cost cause I want to help. When someone says I am in a bind and can not afford this n that, all of us can relate to that. We have all been there. If you want to listen to me and give it a shot I hope you get the results you were shooting for, but if it does not work out I would still like to know. Not so I can complain about it, just because maybe some useful info may be discovered when looking back on what happened. At the top of these forums it basically says health issues are one of things this forum was made to discuss. So by all means we should feel lucky to have it and use it. Take it easy Tom Stevens