Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know some Boa and Python people do this.........but it is not often I hear of colubrid breeders doing it. Does anyone only breed certain snakes every other year? Does this not mess with the snake seeing I imagine they try and cycle themselves whether or not we change temps and what not? I ask because if it was most likely going to equal better production and longer life from my females I would possibly give it a try. Tom Stevens

Hmmmmmmmm, What are you going to be doing in the year 2020? How about in the year 2030? The years after that?

You see, Most kingsnakes have no problem, assuming you provide normal husbandry, breeding every year for 15 to 18 years, that includes multiclutching. Then go another five or six years of not being so consistant. Then living another 8 or 10 years post reproductive.

You do know that the original Albino Calking lived to 35 years of age. So, some of your first year kings will live until the year 2033.

How old will you be? will you still be interested in kingsnakes or colubrids, or any snakes?

As someone whos experienced full lifespans of snakes, I would not worry one bit about conserving their energy. They live friggin far to long. Just a thought, FR

And I thought I had some old animals....Thanks for the info

By the way, I prefer to be labeled Socialy "challenged" LOL. Later...

A friend of mine who i have known for a long time in Calif (Ralph Crouch)sometimes gave his snakes a break some years. I never asked him why he does this but he has some very healthy and very old breeder animals (28 yrs).

This is another topic you hear 2 different opinions on[big surpise huh?]. Some say the babies do indeed come out of the cooling period more vigorous and seem perfect. Others would say why would you stress a snake through a cooling period which was not going to breed the following spring? I know people who do both. Most I know however do not cool babies their first year. I have also heard of people cooling non feeders, which when warmed up suddenly eat like crazy. Does anyone think the babies cooled the first year actually benefit from it to the degree they will just become healthier adults period? I have never done this....but there's always a first time. I also wonder if some of these snakes hit a growth spurt and catch up to snakes that were not cooled? Tom Stevens

As I do not believe in cooling or hibernation, not in the least, not in captivity or in nature. So, to cool juviniles for any reason is weird to me.

Let me explain, I think colubrids require cool temps, year-a-round. Not only in winter. That is, they perfer, they pick, they use cool temps(temps we consider hibernating temps) and only use warmer temps when needed. Examples would be to grow, digest food, heal wounds, shed skin, incubate eggs and babies, cure desease, etc. The rest of the time and inbetween all the above(and a few more, I am sure) they pic temps in the 50's to mid 60's.

This includes pythons and boas. I will use boas and pythons as an example because it clearly points out the misconception of our thoughts. Many people hibernate or cool cycle their boas and pythons, The do so at temps in the sixties to low seventies. I find that very odd because I have found at least five species of wild pythons crossing the road at temps in the fifties to sixties. And several species of boas as well. So to allow you to think, I ask, were they hibernating in the road? The truth is, they are active in temps far below what many consider hibernating temps. And this goes for colubrids and rattlesnakes.

Ok, maybe you should allow your neonates a choice between very cool temps(what you consider hibernating) to temps in the mid ninties. Then maybe you would not have a problem that needs cooling to cure.

The truth is, your not allowing your charges to make needed choices, then blaming them and trying to force them into another bad or possible bad choice.

I could go on and on about our study site and the silly cold temps we find snakes doing the oddest things, ask and I will tell. FR

p.s. This winter, Dave and Tracy Barker came over, we were dicussing snakes(yea think) and Tracy said, the longer I keep snakes the less heat I give them. Now i only add heat after they cycle. I laughted.

Next thing you'll tell us is that the world isn't flat. Obviously we would fly off the world if it was spinning and round, like mud off a wagon wheel. you're too much dude.

I its been said and done for at least twenty years. What is interesting to me. And please do not think any of this is about right or wrong. The third wave of reptile keeping(if this is the third wave) is not based on the reptiles and how they fit in nature(which is OK) but based on the speed of the internet and copying others. Right or wrong, is now based on an iterpidatation of a caresheet/cage type. Not on an attempt to interpid the actual snake.

I don't think it makes a real difference, only that if you understand the snakes as they occur in nature, you will find, they have many many ways to skin the cat and that becomes the glue that keeps you interested in them. If all they did was live in a sweater box and make babies, I would not maintain an interest over a few years, muchless over decades. FR

I used to keep snakes in the garage on a sweater rack set up. The temps would go below freezing and I would turn on the heat tape on the back of the rack. The snakes would stay cool but would not freeze. When I fed them during the winter they would sit right on the heat. Then they would move off the heat after digestion and be cold. Come spring the tape was turned off and the males and female would breed without food. Then I would turn on the heat for the females and feed them like crazy. This method worked very well for me.

The only snakes that I had to keep on high heat are the rosy boas. Regurges happen as soon as they get a little on the cool side. So there heat tape is turned up all the way and they seem to need it that way.
Also with the rosys I would not cool them during winter but just place there cages in a dark closet where the temps stayed at room temperature. They still cycled for me every year this way and I always assumed it was the complete darkeness that triggered them. Whatever it was it worked like a charm for me and at one point I had 200 breeder rosy boas.

Heres one for you, when I first developed a method to breed kings, in the early sixties. I kept them at 84 degrees and constant lite and they bred every 11 months, they did that until they had produced every month of the year. Then later I learned how to do it, better. hahahahahahahahaha.

So yes, I was never fooled by the hibernation thing. Its best to give them a wide range of temperature choices. After that its all man made donut juice. You see, in nature they have a wide range of choices. Choices of all kinds, and they do make them. FR

I agree with FR (and apparently the barkers) snakes are frequently kept too warm. They do need to get warm sometimes(after eating, while gravid), but the amount of time any of my snakes spend right on their hot spot is minimal. I've had much better results breeding kings and madagascan herps using long cages so that they could get away from the hot spot(90) to basically room temp (68-70). It is all about giving them the choice, they know whats good for them.

I have had equal success breeding kings with and without brumating, I think light cycles are more important for North american herps. Usually I wouldn't cool down young snakes, but last year i had about 6 babies that just would not eat. I cooled them down to 55-60 for just three weeks during october and when they came out they were pounding food like crazy.

I would think that cycling animals even if you werent going to breed them would help keep them on scedual. Has anyone ever had problems from not breeding a cycled female???

Hmmm What about Snakes from the North ? Ive not had too much luck road cruisin or flippin ice sheets for Fox Snakes here in Wisconsin In Janurary lol. I think snakes from warmer climes probably dont brumate but in the north they sure as hell do.

Keith
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Back in the day when I was in Canada you can see the snakes on sunny days when the ice turns a little wet, wearing their sunglasses and schlitzing down to the valleys for warmer temps.

woooooohooooooo!

Oh yeah here too lol except they are eating wheels of cheese and sippin on wine ! lol

Keith
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I have to wonder why people pick a possible exception as a way to counter the normal. Its really not my problem or the snakes problem if you live in the NE or in that general area. Its simply not the center from which to judge snakes from. If your taking a group like getulus, then the geographic center is somewhere near my house. hahahahahahahaha, funny but true.
Let say, snakes are equatorial, that is, the vast majority of species are located between the two tropic lines. And the farther you go north, the less species and numbers you incur. So yes, you can use northern populations to explain the masses of kingsnake species, but I would have to wonder why?

By far the most numbers of kingsnakes occur in the southern half of the U.S. Are they hibernating in Fla.?

Now lets consider hibernation. To hibernate is a mammalian term. It means to slow the animals normal metabolism(low energy consumption). Mammals have a consistant metabolism(high energy consumption). To lower a mammals metabolism is truely doing something different. Also, hibernating animals are in a sleep state or inactive state.

So to apply this to reptiles who raise and lower their metabolism as a matter of daily function, is very odd. Snakes would then hibernate on a daily basis.

What are snakes doing in these things we call dens? you know where they hibernate. Are they sleeping the whole winter? Or do they move within those small areas? if they do, they are not hibernating. hmmmmmmmmm

Why do snakes den or hibernate in the southern U.S. or Mexico or central america, they do U know. Its not cold, Heck those winters are warmer then your summers(NE) Why do people cool Central american milksnakes, or any kingsnakes from mexico???? They do you know. But why?

Ok, your turn to answer my questions, thanks and please understand its all for fun. FR

Black Milks, ( a favorite of mine) from what I've been able to learn are from high altitudes in Costa rica where the wheather has been refered to as a constant spring year round except for dry and wet seasons.

They are regularly cooled (cycled) yet they are likely to roam year round. I would guess in their case, that possibly wet/dry and a bit of light cycle change (athough I would question if they experience much in the way of day length change) are their cues.

I am aware from past posts that Al Zulich has had good sucess letting them warm up as much as they would like and others don't allow for any additional heating and also do well.

Lots of good questions......

I have to wonder why people pick a possible exception as a way to counter the normal. Its really not my problem or the snakes problem if you live in the NE or in that general area. Its simply not the center from which to judge snakes from. If your taking a group like getulus, then the geographic center is somewhere near my house. hahahahahahahaha, funny but true.
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The exception ? Thats not an exception FR there are snakes all over the North up into Canada. They arent there by accident. We have Garters, Bullsnakes, Fox Snakes, Black Ratsnakes, Milksnakes, Watersnakes, Timber Rattlers and Pygmy Rattlers and many others so I agree there are more snakes to the south and to the west but we arent the exception or some kind of anomoly. Sounds like you are suffering from a little "west coast arrogance" i.e. the center of all things is out west somewhere lol
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Let say, snakes are equatorial, that is, the vast majority of species are located between the two tropic lines. And the farther you go north, the less species and numbers you incur. So yes, you can use northern populations to explain the masses of kingsnake species, but I would have to wonder why?
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You lost me here. I dont know what you are referencing from my post ????
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By far the most numbers of kingsnakes occur in the southern half of the U.S. Are they hibernating in Fla.?
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Didnt I not say that ? Did you read my post ? I said I doubt snakes of the south and or west truly BRUMATE like they do in the north where its below freezing for much of the winter.
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Now lets consider hibernation. To hibernate is a mammalian term. It means to slow the animals normal metabolism(low energy consumption). Mammals have a consistant metabolism(high energy consumption). To lower a mammals metabolism is truely doing something different. Also, hibernating animals are in a sleep state or inactive state.
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The word hibernate came from your post not mine. Brumate is different. Its more a restless sleep where when temps afford it snakes can go about and eat, drink, bask or whatever else they choose to do. Then when it cools down they can resume BRUMATING.
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So to apply this to reptiles who raise and lower their metabolism as a matter of daily function, is very odd. Snakes would then hibernate on a daily basis.
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I believe snakes to be adaptable. To say they need this in captivity because its like that in the wild is to broad. If snakes cant adapt to some extent to what we do in captivity how do they adapt to changing weather ? How did any reptiles evolve to adapt to changing weather patterns throughout time ? Im not saying we shouldnt try and mimic or get as close as possible to natural conditions. To think because some snakes come from areas were its warmer more often that they cant adapt to cooler or warmer temps seems strange to me. Im not saying try and get a Redtail Boa to live in a 68 degree enviroment but I bet it can and they do adjust to some cooler temps i.e. People cool them and with success.
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What are snakes doing in these things we call dens? you know where they hibernate. Are they sleeping the whole winter? Or do they move within those small areas? if they do, they are not hibernating. hmmmmmmmmm
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Again not sure who this question is directed at as I never argued to the contrary one way or the other. I said "brumate" so under my definition they may be doing to the Rumba in their dens as they arent HIBERNATING.
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Why do snakes den or hibernate in the southern U.S. or Mexico or central america, they do U know. Its not cold, Heck those winters are warmer then your summers(NE) Why do people cool Central american milksnakes, or any kingsnakes from mexico???? They do you know. But why?
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Maybe for a break, food source is less. During winter in the desert is there less mammal activity due to sparser vegetation ? I cant answer the question as I dont know. Do you know ?

Keith
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Sir you very much need to get a book/s and check it out. I am not making it up. Its very plain and simple. Not wanting to argue but sir, I have over 12 species of snakes in my yard.

There is no west coast bias, But if there was, its because Calif, has more species of reptiles then any other state. And there is good reason. You should look up the reasons. Remember I am from Ariz and I would think we had more species, but we don't. Calif. simply has more.

Get with it sir, facts are facts, life zones are life zones, habitat types are habitat types. Just a hint, Calif covers the most distance from north to south, it also covers the most distance from below sea level to high mountains, all with relatively a warm climate. I wonder what that does and means? FR

FR you strike me as a sharp guy yet you fail to grasp any of my posts. I looked back at them and they seem pretty legible. I never said Wisconsin has as many Reptiles as AZ or CA just that they do thrive here. I know where snakes occur and etc... I dont need to get a book you simply need to grasp comprehension techniques. You misread both of my posts. How did you get Hibernation from me writing BRUMATION ???

Keith

>>Sir you very much need to get a book/s and check it out. I am not making it up. Its very plain and simple. Not wanting to argue but sir, I have over 12 species of snakes in my yard.
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>> There is no west coast bias, But if there was, its because Calif, has more species of reptiles then any other state. And there is good reason. You should look up the reasons. Remember I am from Ariz and I would think we had more species, but we don't. Calif. simply has more.
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>> Get with it sir, facts are facts, life zones are life zones, habitat types are habitat types. Just a hint, Calif covers the most distance from north to south, it also covers the most distance from below sea level to high mountains, all with relatively a warm climate. I wonder what that does and means? FR
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I got a brooksi that was cooled during its first year, except I didn't even know until the breeder told me after the snake was shipped to me and I noticed something wasn't right. The snake had poor muscle development, was disoriented, and couldn't support his own body. His spine was visible, and his body pretty much felt like a soft noodle. On the plus side, he did have an appetite. But man, this was not a well-started baby by any means.

It took several months of aggressive feeding to get him caught up with a few of my other brooksi yearlings that weren't cooled, but he's still much smaller than them even though he's older.

In my opinion, the cooling just took away time that could have been spent developing him with adequate nutrition. I'm thinking he probably lost the potential to obtain full brooksi size just because of the early setback.
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www.BugChick.com

chickabowwow

Well Zelda, thats kinda like calling a horse race well before they get to the finish line.

It would be far better if your judgement was made after several years, then it would be even better is you used many kingsnakes that were under the same cooling pattern.

I would imagine, there are exceptions as well as, exceptions to exceptions and such. With such a large number if kingsnakes being produced, there is a base set of numbers to work from.

Also, I have to wonder, how many of these kingsnakes actually reach their full potential? hibernated or not, cooled or not, under any and all husbandry? I do not often see record sized captives, so I would think their full potential is rarely reached.

While I admire your lofty goals, I often wonder why simply becoming normal for a snake such as this, is not enough. Remember, normal is suitable for all but the exceptional. FR

Or what you're trying to argue about?

If I were "calling the horse race" before it ended, I would have just given up on the snake or even returned it to the seller.
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www.BugChick.com

chickabowwow

I always question how healthy it was to force a female to resorb all that yolk. Certainly it is more common for snakes in the wild to breed in consecutive years than it is for them to resorb fully developed follicles.
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

Hi Rick, We agree on this, but maybe our thoughts are from different angles again. Isn't it great to agree, but for different reasons?

I think that once the required level of energy is attained, females reproduce. There are no humans to say its OK or not OK. That is in nature. Why should it be different in captivity. It shouldn't.

That is if the rest of your husbandry will support it. If your husbandry is not strong enough to allow breeding every year or even multiclutch every year, then improve your husbandry, not torture the animal, just to make you feel better.

I also agree thats its far harder for a female to go thru a failed reproductive attempt, then go thru a normal attempt.

Now the question is, are your(the people who force them to not reproduce) reproductive events normal.

If your reproductive events cause a female to become weak and needs special care, then you may consider that a sign that your husbandry is not up to snuff.

An example is, the pics of my female nesting below. She had barely suitable nesting, she nested quickly and lost no weight, other then that of the eggs, she has no wrinkles and her ribs are not showing. That is the result of suitable nesting. I did take a pic, if your interested. I have another nesting right now, she is four days after her shed and she fed day before yesterday, she started laying last night. Better go check. FR

Another side of that is how many females meet up with males. Do we just suppose they always do or is it natural to not find a mate on some years? Is not mating a rare event or much more common than we think? Just food for thought.

Hmmmmmm. I know for a fact, most(i would say all, but that i do not know) live in dense colonies. They have scent glands and mark the whole dang place up. They know where eachother is at all times.

The real question is not "if" they get bred, its by whom that is the concern.

If you remember that picture of canadian gardersnakes breeding, thousands of males all over a cycled female. Well its not that dense, but the same general idea.

In our field work, they without question know where eachother is and are there when needed. To live in pairs or trios is very common. To live, means staying in that group all seasons of the year, not just breeding season.

On the other side of the coin, there are indeed parts of the population that are very unsuccessful. In fact, they live very short lives and are generally considered tucker for other animals. FR

There's a lot of info on this post I find interesting and I am sure others will too. I for one always thought a cooling of temps was mandatory for the male to produce viable sperm and the female to ovulate. I know of some people who only work with cycling light properly to mimic the seasons with success but have never taken that chance myself. As a matter of fact since I work a lot in my snake room at night my light cycle is bass ackwards. Many people I speak with[mostly people who are not as experienced as they think] are very opinionated and speak matter of factly about how they do things as if that is the only, or the best way to do them. I much prefer to mess with things and see if my results change from year to year. Regardless of how we do things I still think there's always the factor of plain ol luck involved. All we do is increase our odds of success. This is by far my favorite of the forums, I think a lot of good[and of course some bad...] info is posted on here. In closing I will ask eveyone what they think is the best book on breeding and husbandry for Kings and Milks? Thanks again Tom Stevens