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Ok, I have caught perhaps hundreds of gray rats snakes in north west Alabama but never seen one like this in that area and decided to get some opinions on this guy. I really don't know what to call him, other than an odd gray rat snake. He was caught a mile or so from my parents house and the guy brought him to my Dad. He then called me and said he had never seen a gray rat anything like this. I would have to agree!! It looks like a a gray rat that has lost the majority of it's gray and black. Where it should be gray it is yellow and orange. The blotches are brown with yellow highlights in between the scales. The head is lighter gray than most gray rats around here too. I guess in some parts of their range with they are known to intergrade with yellow rats this wouldn't be too atypical, but they don't intergrade with anything around here. I posted a few pics of the snake in question, as well as a very typical rat snake that is the same size. Any thoughts??????? I'm up for ideas.......

One without the flash.....

Neat looking snake! I think you just have a lighter than normal (with yellow?) gray rat. You're right, there's nothing up there to intergrade with. I would hold onto it and try to breed it with a gulf hammock or even a yellow rat. You would get some neat looking offspring.

I wouldnt breed it to anything but gray rats!!! That could be a hypo. Very neat looking snake. I would get it sexed, breed it to a white oaks phase grey rat, then in a few years breed it back to some of the offspring and see what happens!! Keep the bloodlines clean and you might have something new!! Dont create any mutts! Just my $.02 worth.
Brian

>>Neat looking snake! I think you just have a lighter than normal (with yellow?) gray rat. You're right, there's nothing up there to intergrade with. I would hold onto it and try to breed it with a gulf hammock or even a yellow rat. You would get some neat looking offspring.
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Corn snake (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

You are thinking right along my lines man! I was thinking that hypo could be a possibility. It is definitely more hypo than anything from that particular population. Trust me though, when I breed it I will make sure it is to a gray rat only, and preferably from the same locale.

I have a freind that gave me a rat that is the exact color morph and caught it in marion county Alabama.

Marion County is the next county north of Fayette. Do you still have the snake, and what sex is it? I would like to see pics if you have any.

Its a female i believe, but i wouldnt sell it, and i got it from a freind, i live in dekalb county Al, and i have black rats but he has gray rats and caught one identical to the one in your pictures, with the yellowish color, but this has alot of green on it. yeah i think it is close to fayette.i love this snake and is really huge, its head is like a python lol..

zach

>>actually there are black rats in Northern Alabama that sometimes intergrade with the grey rats but that doesn't look like the case here. looks opposite of what a grey/black intergrade would look like. Actually the other snake pictured looks more like a black/grey intergrade then the "special" grey looks.
I don't really know what to think of it but I'm with hostshot on this. Don't breed it to anything other then grey rat. This will be the best way to find out just what genetics are involved. Good luck
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

Jimmy, yeah I have caught a small handful of black/gray intergrades, but all of them were a few counties north of me. I'm in Fayette County, and from what I can tell from my few years experience being a snake fanatic we have gray rats in this area. From time to time we do collect darker individuals(slightly darker than the darker of the two in the pics), but according to all the range maps they are just grays. It is interesting and exciting to catch one such as the lighter one above. I wish you could see it in person. Hypo was the very first thing that came to mind. Who knows, we shall see in the future I hope.

>>Jimmy, yeah I have caught a small handful of black/gray intergrades, but all of them were a few counties north of me. I'm in Fayette County, and from what I can tell from my few years experience being a snake fanatic we have gray rats in this area. From time to time we do collect darker individuals(slightly darker than the darker of the two in the pics), but according to all the range maps they are just grays. It is interesting and exciting to catch one such as the lighter one above. I wish you could see it in person. Hypo was the very first thing that came to mind. Who knows, we shall see in the future I hope.

I thought you were a little farther north.
You're darn right it's an exciting find.
I hope it does turn out to be hypo but either way it is fantastic.
Good luck with that beauty.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

I took this a few minutes ago. Very unique ventral pattern.

I think this snake is probably a cross with a Texas Rat, and it very well could have previously been either a CB animal or crossed with one that had been in someones collection.
Regardless, I think the pinkish on it is quite pretty. It's a keeper if you ask me, which Im sure there'll be no argument to that.
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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

Well, I had thought at first that is was possible to have been a cb animal that was released, but upon further inspection it just isn't. I have lived in Fayette my whole life and I knew everyone that had snakes in a collection within 50 miles of me. The whole county has less than 17,000 people and no one in this area even keeps snakes. They are all old farmers who's kids and grandkids have moved years back. Even the people that have kept snakes in this area didn't buy them, they caught all of them. Most people here don't even know what the internet is yet...lol, so a cb animal would be out of the question. It's not a TX rat intergrade because it has no features that would point to that, at least IMO. I just think it's a lighter than average gray rat, and whether it's a genetic trait will be determined I guess.

Not trying to be a punk but that looks a lot like most of the "Black Rats" I caught in northern Alabama. (by most, I mean 3 of 5) When I caught the first one I sent a pic to Dwight Good and he said that was a common coloring for the Black Rats up that way. He used to have pictures of some from Kentucky, also, that looked similar. Maybe Dwight will weigh in on this. I could be looking past something obvious. Right now I can't even find a pic but I'll keep looking.

... to post this snake. Just to see if it was a common occurance in other localities. I just haven't ever seen one quite this light in our area. I have however caught a lot of yellow phase gray rats around our house. I'm not sure if the pics just aren't capturing it well or not, but this snake stands out as being very different than those. If any of you guys have pics of the other ones you have seen that are similar to this I would greatly appreciate a post on them.

Oh, and you didn't sound like a punk at all, the whole reason I posted it was to get some opinions.....so not trouble.

I was a little reluctant as you realized... Your snake, may indeed, be lighter than the ones I found. Until I find the pictures, I can't be sure. Those were my pre-digital days.
One of the other points to be made, although perhaps not too extremely relevant, is Gray vs Black Rat. Since it is neither grayish or black and we are only talking about ssp, I suppose its a matter of preference. A recent study of Obsoleta DNA showed them to be virtually one gene pool on the east coast. For me, that just confuses the issue. You gotta make a call based on something so color, locale, behaviour still work for me. On any count, I think its cool and is worth the effort to try for some lighter types. At worst, it'll be a fun project. Good luck.

Looks like a locality "Black" Ratsnake to me, especially the head region. It definately is not a "Grey" Ratsnake, I'm quite sure of that. However, over large parts of the American Ratsnake's natural range specimens are impossible to assign to any of the classic subspecies, as Burbrink et al previously have pointed out, and in these cases it may be best to refer to locality instead of subspecies. Your specimens are a fine example of this problem.

Ok its not a black, im from north alabama and there is only the true black rat in my range, u go south west a little to marion county they have gray rats that look identical to that.but there is some intergrades up in north alabama but not in my range, and the one he has is just a gray rat. But they look just like a light texas rat to me, but i know we dont have texas rats and i have seen tons like that in the picture. Just to let you know its not a black rat or intergrade witha black rat or would have tons more of black

Thank you snake master!

Like he said I can rest assured that it is NOT a black rat. It IS however a gray rat. Given I am the one that has lived in this area over the course of my life, and the fact that I have caught hundreds, if not possibly thousands of rat snakes all over AL, I can assure you that it is not a black rat of any kind, race, locale, or variant. I have caught numerous yellow phase gray rats in this area, and just because it is yellow and brown doesn't make it a black rat at all. It It is not your typical gray rat either, and like I said, I would love to see these pics that all of you are talking about...the ones with similar animals to this one.

What I was trying to say here, is that your specimens do not seem to fit into the definition of any of the classic subspecies of Pantherophis obsoletus. In my humble opinion, they resemble the 'Black Ratsnake' more closely than the 'Grey Ratsnake', but I think it's best to assign them to locality rather than subspecies. So how does 'North Alabama Ratsnake' sound to you?

Your comment was dead on accurate. There are southern Grey Ratsnakes, Northern Black Ratsnakes, and a whole lot of confusion in between. The snake is a locality specific example of the Black Ratsnake genus. Having said that, I also believe that it is somewhat unique in the amount of yellowish coloration displayed. I too live in Northern Alabama (I could trip and fall into Tennessee) and I have never seen one with that much yellow coloration. The snakes I find have the same pattern and coloration as the normal one shown in the comparison pictures above.

Here is a picture of my black rat snake from here in KY. It is what most of us here call a "high yellow". Matts has alot more yellow and brown in it than any I have seen here in KY, so its not "normal"!

My black rat...

And Mattbrocks...

In all honesty, it looks sorta like a hypo coloration of my snake!!

As you can see, mine has lots of yellows in his coloration, but not anywhere near as Matts!! That would be an interesting snake to breed to a same locale gray, and "play" with the genentics!!! A real keeper and something special for sure!! Wish I could find a killer looking snake like that in the field!!!
Brian

>>Ok, I have caught perhaps hundreds of gray rats snakes in north west Alabama but never seen one like this in that area and decided to get some opinions on this guy. I really don't know what to call him, other than an odd gray rat snake. He was caught a mile or so from my parents house and the guy brought him to my Dad. He then called me and said he had never seen a gray rat anything like this. I would have to agree!! It looks like a a gray rat that has lost the majority of it's gray and black. Where it should be gray it is yellow and orange. The blotches are brown with yellow highlights in between the scales. The head is lighter gray than most gray rats around here too. I guess in some parts of their range with they are known to intergrade with yellow rats this wouldn't be too atypical, but they don't intergrade with anything around here. I posted a few pics of the snake in question, as well as a very typical rat snake that is the same size. Any thoughts??????? I'm up for ideas.......
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>>One without the flash.....
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Corn snake (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Thanks for the comparison shot. I too have collected quite a few gray rats in our area that are very similar to the one in your above post. They all display a yellowish color between the blotches that is slightly "sutty"(for lack of better words). And like you said the amount of yellow in this freak is way more than any I've ever seen, as well as it appears to have a great reduction in gray all over, except the head. It'll be neat to play around with. I have collected two more this week, but sadly they both were male. So I'm still in search of a suitable female from our area.

Great thing about rat snakes is he ate the first two f/t rats I offered.....

Het. Leucistic Black Rats, Rainbow Boas, & Ball Pythons seem to have a visual marker displaying a lighter colouration than typical wild-types. In Ball Pythons, there are usually slight colour differences (tells) in Hets. I'm not saying the Rat is Het. Leuc. but I wouldn't doubt if it was Het. something. Breed it to a normal & see if you get any that come out w/ that colouration right off the bat. If you do, hopefully it will be the opposite sex of the adult & you can breed two together w/ that colouration.