Reptile & Amphibian Forums

If someone wants to work on an article on herping etiquette I'll be happy to link it up to the Alterna page.

Great idea Rick, hopefully someone will volunteer to organize the thoughts we need to touch on.

Best
Joe

That ettiquette is different for everyone you talk with. For instance I don't like people stopping in the middle of the road to talk.
Others do it all the time. I would rather folks pull off, then talk, walk around, wake up, whatever...

So this may be a tough issue. I would be happy to add my opinions and reference them with TP&W facts.

Take Care,

Steven Owens

nope, that's easy. If you want to talk, pull off the road and talk. It aint kosher (by law that is) to stop in the middle of the road and chat (yes I may have done this a time or two in the past).

But we're talking about different things I think. Respect for habitat, respect for other herpers, you know.....

for example like Rick suggested....

1) dim your lights when approached by traffic (common sense right?)

2) don't short hop sections of raod with heavy herp traffic
(boy some folks were pissed at a CRV doing that a year or two ago)

For me I have a few things I have seen that I do not like out in Alterna country.

1, Make an effort to spread out and share an area of road if road collecting. Do not follow to close or make a U-turns in front other cars.

2, If somebody is walking do not spot light the cut they are on. I personally do not care so much about the side of the road I am not walking on at the moment, but other people I know do. So I say just leave that cut to them and that method.

3, Obey all traffic laws. Do not stop in middle of the road, do not drive down the shoulder on the wrong side of the road, do not make unsafe / illegal U-turns, etc, etc….

4, Do your best to dim all your lights. I know that you may have two or three sets of lights on two or three separate switches to manage and can take a few seconds of looking back up your hi-beams while you work on things. But work on them.

5, There is no reason to lie to other collectors. I have had people say they have not seen anything, when they have. Show me something they found in one place and claim it was from another. And so on… Basic fact, the same animal will not be caught twice at the same time. If you found something, that is great, I am happy for you. To me it changes nothing about what I am doing so there is no reason to lie.

I am sure that there are more points and examples to add to this list, but I thought I would put this much down for now.

this is more like what we are looking for.

Maybe if folks just want to continue this thread with some more thoughts I can organize it from here.

Thanks!
Joe

... Get a broad scope of what people have taken issue with in their own experiences and try to consolidate that to a usable guideline.

If you are shining cuts and catch up to another hunter who is shining don't just go right up to the next cut and start shining again, make a little space by going a few cuts beyond and then start shining again.

If you are shining both sides of the road and another hunter is coming towards you stop shining their side as soon as you see them, also turn off your brights.

Pesonally if I am walking a cut I don't mind if somebody in a vehicle shines the cut on the opposite side as long as they don't shine the side I'm walking.

When you stop to talk even if you are on the shoulder turn off your brights.

Above all don't let other peoples bad ettiquit get to you.

I don't know what short hopping is but... I don't think driving
from almost the presidio county sign to the windmill is too short.

That is over 15 miles of road to cruise. I can understand why people only want to hunt a certain section of the river road since the alterna only seem to come from the west side of the Big Hill to the windmill these days. Most I think are from the Panther area.

I think as long as you don't cut anyone off and and give plenty of space everyone should be happy. The road gets fresh after a minute or so anyway. I think again it goes back to common sense and courtesy...

Thanks for posting this. I think it will provide some of the much needed guidelines to help folks out.

Steven

Hey Steven, I agree, if you stop to talk and someone comes up behind you, I think you should pull over and let them go by. Otherwise it leaves that person following you or them sitting on the side of the road to give you a head start. Something we oldtimers refer to as being puked, a term derived from the nickname given a person who made etiquette a necessity.
Some of us may disagree but putting it out there gives you something to think about and it also gives newbies something to learn from.
Thanks
Rick

...

What people have already mentioned is a very good start and I agree thus far. One thing that I take total offense to, is when I am walking a cut and someone comes along and shines the same damn cut that I’m on (as previously mentioned already). Now some cuts are pretty freaking huge and maybe some latitude is in order but where do you draw the line? If a guy is walking one side then I see no problem with someone driving through and shining the cut opposite of them but that’s just me. Shinning the cut that I am actually off of my arse and out of the car hunting should be off limits for lazy arse people to come by and shine. If they want to come walk it with me, then I’m cool with that. We can just start at opposite ends or one guy can walk the top or something. But if you want to hunt it, get out of your freaking car and hunt it.

The next big thing is when someone is shinning slower then another guy and the faster hunter simply goes around him and ends up shinning not very far right in front. This is also very rude and I feel that at least a 2 cut skip is in order. I have friends that insist on a whole mile of skipping in an effort to give others room that are not going as fast as us and I feel that is a bit excessive. Maybe something like a 2 cut or 1 mile skip, whichever comes first would be a fair compromise.

Next up to bat is the ‘ole shinning both sides of the road deal. I have no problem with it and have many times had another guy in the car with me and have done this. But when you come up to someone else, be it one guy shinning or two, you should own the cut on your side of the road and leave the other side to the other guy. Some people are by themselves or are only shinning one cut anyway and that cut may, in fact, always be the cut on the other side of the road. This happens because the dude shinning is also the driver and it is much easier for the driver to shine the left side then it is the right. In this case, I think the driver should just tough it out and shine the right side, leaving the cut to the left to the approaching hunter. I’ve had people start shinning the same damn cut I’m already half way through and it makes me want to get out of my car and stomp the [bleep] out of the guy. Of course, I’ve never acted that out ‘cause I would probably get my arse kicked but it is certainly frustrating. Others may differ in how that situation should be handled but to me, sticking to the right seems to be the best course of action. After all, that is your side of the road.

As already touched base upon, doing the U-turn ahead of people thing is very rude too. I really have a hard time understanding how people can be such a-holes but they are and doubt there is much we can do about it. Of course, educating as many as we can is a hell of a good start.

As far as lying to others about what you’ve seen and taking the time to talk in the road isn’t really that important to me. As long people stay out of the way, I really don’t care where they talk or what they do.

Another thing that can be done if someone wants to, is once Joe has this all lined up, maybe someone, or many of us, can print up a handful of them and leave them at the various hotels that we go to.

Joe remember the problems with the ranchers on the dirt back in the 80's? That could very well become a modern day problem again. Jumping fences, shining lights all over someone property and tresspassing in general causes problems for all of us. I personally think that shining more than one Q-Beam outside of the car is bad too. The way we have always done it was the passenger shines the cut and the driver watches the road. The making a u-turn in front of you issue is what is the most offensive because it's like getting slapped in the face. Personally, I feel that if someone were to do that in front of you they better hope not to have any luck. I would give them a nice beatdown and take what should be mine. But that's just my way to handle it. LOL
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Steve W.

Dang, I don’t know why it would be a big deal shinning both sides of the road as long as you shut off the light hitting the left side as soon as you see someone coming towards you. If I’m out there, I’m out there to hunt. Stepping on toes MUST be considered and I for one never take joy in pissing someone off. However, there are lines to be drawn on how far a herper should go to keep people happy that should go right along with the good herping etiquette. Ultimately, to keep many people happy, the road must be clear of any herpers. Obviously, this isn’t going to happen but as long as common sense and common courtesy is applied, a guy should be able to get by without pissing someone off (theoretically). I for one couldn’t go without shinning a light out my driver side (I’m usually the driver). Just staring at the road at 15 miles an hour is just not enough to keep me busy. I can understand that some people are not able to chew gum and walk at the same time, but I also understand that many people can. So, if good herping etiquette dictates that I should not be allowed to hunt the cut that is baring down on me from my left side, then I’m gonna need some dot-to-dots to keep me busy.

Another real issue I see in the whole herping etiquette thing is, unfortunately, the old-timer factor. Now, I don’t mean to offend anyone here, but I probably will. I know of situations where the newbie didn’t know about alterna common law and had easily offended an old-timer. From there, rather then properly communicating and kindly letting the juvie know right from wrong, the old-timer flips a U right in front of them. This causes a chain reaction and before you know it, multiple people are pissed off at each other. So, to whom do we give the blame? The dumb arse newbie for not having any sense (which is really all you need), or the “old-timer” for not helping himself, the newbie and the rest of us on the road with a little alterna education? Sure, it does take about a minute out of a guy’s night to quickly let someone know right from wrong. So maybe flipping a U or shinning right through their car is the answer. In the long run, we will always have herpers out there with big egos, no sense or simple alterna frustration (sometimes, all 3). I just hope I can plug along, find some cool herps and stay out of others way. Of course, in this paragraph, you can substitute “old-timer” with this, “any 1 year veteran that thinks they know everything”. It doesn’t necessarily have to be an old-timer that does this sort of thing. In fact, I know a few old-timers that are great guys and are quite mindful of there attitudes while visiting alterna country.

So, to add to the list of good herping etiquette, how about asking people not to be so easily offended?

Brad

Shining both sides of the cuts are not always a good idea because of safety. How many times have people done it and suddenly said "Oh $it" because a truck is coming up on their tail. Plus highway patrol will most likely have something to say about it. The u-turn issue raises it's head all the time. Us "old timers" know who you offenders are. LOL
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Steve W.

Ok Joe, I agree with many points made by other people that have already posted about etiquette, so heres my list that I go by:

Thats my BIG 10 rules, hope you find them usefull Joe, and I must say this again & want ALL people to understand this: The semi-truck traffic on US-90 & US-285 has greatly increased in the last 15 years & I think it is truely a miracle that no herpers shining cuts from their vehicles have been killed or seriously injured that I am aware of in the 23 straight years that I have been herping the Trans-Pecos. US-277 is also a quite busy roadway, so please, watch for the traffic as close as we watch for snakes....Thanks, John Fraser

thanks for including the part about how to deal with Law Enforcement.

Keep em coming folks... we're getting great info and the more we have the easier it will be for me to put this together (maybe not but still we need more

Best
Joe

Looks like I opened a can of alterna worm. Good stuff Guys. Keep it coming.
See Ya In The Dark
Rick

That is perfect. Print that out and send it to all the troops looking for herps. I may not be an old timer but common courtesy is not so common these days.

I hope folks will follow them...

Thanks for your time and effort with the list.

Steven

Steve, Thanks for your comments, email me anytime, maybe we will cross paths again sometime in West TX, John

........Unless it belongs to you, or you have specific permission from the landowner and/or his agent, stay off of private property. No excuses.

Seems like this one wouldn't need to be on "The List", but if everyone was as polite as 90% of the herpers there wouldn't need to be a list at all.

Good point, while it may seem like common sense it really isn't. Here in California we have alot of Beareau of Land Managment Land that is fenced and cattle are run on it yet it is open to the public. Our no tresspassing laws read something like if there is no sign every 1/4 mile and not fenced on at least 3 sides it is open to the public. If a land owner is lax in signage or fencing you cannot be prosecuted for tresspassing unless the land owner verbaly tells a tresspasserer that they must leave the property and the tresspasser refuses to leave. Also law enforcement generally does not arrest you for tresspassing on their own unless the land owner has filed with the county that they don't want tresspassers.
So alot of people from other states might have no idea they are doing anything unlawful by crossing a fence without signs.

GOOD POINT, Thanks for that one.....John

Thanks Joe for a great idea and thread.

My contribution may not fit here. …. Please don’t crowbar the rocks and crevices.

On several trips to west Texas, I’ve mirrored the crevices of cuts, new to me, in the late morning.
I’m looking for lizards to validate the presence of alterna prey on the cut for the next evening.

I was doing this at the end of May this year, south of Alpine, and was overwhelmed with the number of rocks and crevices that had been crowbarred.
Many of the rocks were off the cut and on the shoulder.
I know folks who do this is very wild areas where the impact is probably minimal, but it seems that “cuts” are our prime conduits to these and other animals.

Am I being too anal here, or is this a problem?

absolutely not too anal...

That is going on the list.

I figure when this document is done it will be in several sections. Off the top of my head we will have sections dealing with:

Road Crusing (how to coexist peacefully with
Field Herping (to include tresspassing and habitat destruction)
Dealing with law Enforcement (how to handle encounters)
Dealing with Locals (Beligerant and otherwise)

I think your point belongs on our document,
thanks for the input.
Best
Joe

Not anal at all and if it is not questioned and addressed, nothing will change. Great observation. Joe, maybe the head honcho at TP&W could be sent this list when finalized to show "alterna-ates" good intentions. Awesome thread, guys!
Todd Hughes

This was my first year out in Alterna land but one thing we did that I do not see mentioned was to use our blinker when traffic came from behind. It just seems safer and a nice thing to do for the poor truckers passing you in the wee hours of the mourning. Think about what they see when the come up on your car driving the cuts. We kept driving so we are not a car stopped on the side so they don't know if you plan on coming back on the road or not. Plus it might keep one of these overtired guys from running you over. We also pulled well off the road when we could as they approached and waited to turn on the blinker until they where close enough to see it go on. Just a thought.
Later Jason

Can't all you Cranky old farts realize that its the same people
out there every year, not to many new people out there. It's almost dead for newcomers now days. Theres no money involved
just go out and have fun now days. If your taking this to seriously you have a major alterna problem. if you took all the money that you spend looking for alterna and buy alterna from a
person like Rick Blair you would be much better off in the end.
I love going to Texas to meet old friends and have a great time
and see everybody elses snakes they caught. Try not to freak
out about somebody else. Life is to short to have a bad time.
KC

there are no rules lets keep it that why just go and hunt but don't go when i'm there.... KC YOUR WARING GLASSES NOW YOU OLD F*** CB

These are not laws nor set in stone, just general guidlines for the folks that might be interested. I'm not doing it for either one of you, I'm doing it for the very few who are interested in doing things the right way.

Besides, some of the old timers are the worst offenders. I can't tell you how many times I've been short hopped by cars with California plates out there, or had the cut I'm walking spotted by the same folks. Which is fine with me - I could care less because I don't collect or keep snakes anymore, and only rarely do I observe herps where I'm likely to run into someone else. I did collect a new county record alterna last year, but ONLY because it was new county record.

And what does money have to do with it? I'll tell you. Your trip will cost you more now than it ever has, and you won't be making any money (unless you are a commercial collector that keeps everything you see). Now that's why these trips should be about having fun.

For every one new GB herper posting in this forum there are 25 more that don't know this forum exists. I can think of 10 herpers that visited the trans pecos for the first time this year (and I'm out of the loop so to speak).

You live in California. It takes you two days to get here, unless you fly, and you spend maybe one or two weeks a year here total (a generalization about anyone that lives 1400 miles or more away from Texas). So why not have the folks sharing the time with you out on the roads behave as they should. From your post I get the impression you don't care if they crow bar the cuts, gas the holes, drive back and forth over the luna vista cuts with spotlights shining out both windows with aircraft landing lights blaring in your eyes.

And Keith, you don't contribute much to this forum or the alterna page, why contribute that opinionated post now? At least Charlie shares photos of his finds with the alterna page.

Best
Joe

Joe
I've never seen anybody use a crowbar on cuts in texas thats new to me and sounds a little stupid also. Also I met the two most unfriendly herpers from Texas this year who never turned there off road lights off when they passed going the opposite direction. They also never stopped for us even when we had parked to the side of the road on top of the big hill. I think you guys don't know how good you have it out there. You should try to collect White Water in Palm Springs Calif. then will have
something to talk about. I think posting is great and would like
to contribute more to this forum in the future.
The bottom line is try not to step on anybodys toes and just have a great time and share it with everybody else while your there.
KC

>>>>>>The bottom line is try not to step on anybodys toes and just have a great time and share it with everybody else while your there.

I meant to say...

I think we are on the same page, we both just want folks to relax & have a good time out there.

If I can help that happen by producing the document then I'm happy to do it.

I've never been to whitewater, but heard the nightmare stories about that place. And I agree that some Texans can be as rude or worse than anyone else. That behaviour is not isolated to one locality.

also I reread my reply to you and it sounded a lot worse than I intended it to. So thanks for the insight, and we'll see you out west.

Forky

Yep, I saw the glasses first hand!!! His hair has also grayed alot from last year. But his collecting skills are still there,he caught a Great Plains Skink at the Longhorn Motel while we were there.And boy was that thing fast!!! I'm actually out there only to have fun also! I imagine that someday I'll see an Alterna in the headlights, but I'm not going to be a fanatic about it. If some other herper does something I don't agree with I just figure that they are far more serious about road collecting than I am. It's cool to see the same faces year after year in the Trans Pecos!
take care
Barry
p.s. Charlie actually short hopped me when I was up the 118 catching Splendida a couple of years ago. I didn't lose any sleep over it. "Hi Charlie"

Hi Barry, hey Joe long time no see. I need your e-mail address Don't get out to the bend that much any more once a year I'm sure I've got both of you guys But you know it wasn't on purpose Joe I'll try to send you a pic of one of my not so many wild caughts miss talking to ya and seeing you in the night Joe it's been years Charlie P.S Kieth get your kids to read this to you or next time I'll send it in brail