Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all,

Since obviously all of this negative state law crap has been hitting the fan, I have been doing alot of thinking.

I seriously dont see what the reptile hobby has to offer, that could even hold much ground against our moronic adversaries. As I do google searches and so forth, I see hundreds of pages explaining why these animals should NOT be kept. However, I only have seen a couple pages in defense for us,but not laying anything down explaining why we SHOULD be allowed. Can anyone point me in the direction of articles or documentation that even provides beneficial information regarding:
- Health (wild vs. captive bred)
- mental health (wild vs. captive)
- long term effects (wild vs. captive)
- Pet trade vs. wild populations
- How about anything PERIOD that would be beneficial to our side of things?

I think the primary reason why we lose are:

1.) We dont allow our voices to be heard
2.) When we do allow our voices to be heard, we don't have as much evidence to back us up.

It's amazing how one group of people can present a few small cases with some (not all) documentation that is false or mis-leading and drop us like a ton of bricks. I have written letters to the three individuals at the top of Eric's list and sent them out. However, during the process of writing the letter, I thought to myself, what reason's other than the plain jane obvious ones, can I provide that would even make a difference. We can Bi**h and moan about it all we want about how we dont like it. The bottom line is that they could care less what we like and what we dont. Unless we can provide good reason's why captive ownership by private citizens of potentially dangerous animals is beneficial (to something), then I would have to say that we are completely out of luck. Even zoo's are now starting to let go of their elephants because of these people.
If zoo's can take a beating, I dont see how we have a chance.

I am not in here trying to get this issue all up in an uproar again, but I have noticed that this forum is full of piss and vinegar when it comes to this stuff and you guys have offered more suggestions and fight than all of the forums combined. I am most at home in the crocodilians forum, but you might as well not even bring up this subject in there. Noone really pays attention to it.

OH well, its only our hobby going down the drain, right? Nothing major.

Best Wishes,

Chris

P.S. I was serious about my above questions though, I would certainly be interested in reading documentation regarding the above list if anyone has an idea of where they can be found.

Thanks

There are many problems. Perceived hopelessness is one. This situation certainly is not hopeless, and you should trust me when I say that you are able to do more.

Herpetoculture and Venomous Herpetoculture have a great deal to offer the world and wildlife with respect to conservation through captive propogation, education, and assisted environmental preservation. It's true. Zoos aren't the only institutions obligated, restricted, or obliged to confront these tasks, and many noteworthy accomplishments have been achieved outside these multimillion dollar settings. Education, conservation, and environmental preservation owe a big thanks to the private individual. And this is WHY it should be allowed. If Venomous Herpetoculture is banned, venomous snakes, snakes (in general), academics, and wildlife will lose something valuble in addition to all of us who hold this dear passion. Venomous herpetoculture should not be banned because it's a God Given, American Right. It also should be deemed a priviledge. Collectively as hobbyists we have many problems within as this is a specialized and potentially dangerous interest. Should someone who keeps lions, elephants, or hippos be allowed to keep them at their own discretion without restrictions? Next to my back yard? I think NOT! Safety concerns are in order, and that is part of our problem. Currently, venomous herpetoculture has little in the way of check's and balances. I feel this is wrong, and as our track record reflects from multiple screw ups that more discipline is needed. We enjoy our animals but so many others don't. As herpetoculturists and as members of society combined, we clearly are in the minority. Perhaps nobody knows this better than I. Currently, my battle is symbolic (at least to me) as I've been senselessly perecuted and harrassed by officials where I live only because I keep venomous snakes. Other individuals, like those at a zoo I know (but not the zoo itself) have also become my bitter enemies because of feelings they hold for me based on professional jealousy, greed, and spite.

You are correct. Our voices aren't heard. You are also correct in saying that we have little evidence to back us, and this needs to change, and it should change right now. The more states that drop off, the more difficult it is turn this thing around. I believe a federalized permit will help turn these states around. They may say "no" at first, but with continued hard work, that answer may really be "not right now".

Establishing antivenin banks in all corners of the US clearly gives herpetoculturists more credibility as it demonstrates we are responsible and that we care about safety. This is very important. If we don't. We are doomed. Our hobby is growing, and we can all appreciate why. We also must understand that as our hobby grows, there will be more snakebites. This can only be accepted. They are called accidents for a reason but we must be prepared to deal with these tragedies when they occur. Paying for our own serum, eventhough getting it legally has proven painful, is a key issue to our problems.

Qualifying the interest is important. A federal permit system will provide a consistant method to identify who is right and who is not. Venomous herpetoculture needs more discipline, structure, checks and balances. A permit system will make policing ourselves easier. I feel this is best done by founding an association promoting a Code of Ethics (which should be sworn by), and a Handling and Keeping Protocol (which should be abided by). I feel all permit applicant's should be tested over ethics that we as a comunity collectively value in addition to demonstrating learned skill and knowledge. This "ups the bar" as to who is the appropriate hot keeper. I feel all novice interests should be made to serve an apprenticeship to insure that they properly informed and experienced before permit is issued. Like the Fl model. Like Falcolnry. I will be publishing a book (hopefully soon) that will serve as an invaluble instructional tool for the novice and experienced venomous keepers alike. It will be thorough and beneficial. It's a start and it's something to use. It is also something to take into battle.

It's so easy to sit and do nothing. If you do, you shouldn't be dissappointed with the results if they are not in your favor. These things take time, effort, and money. Who, I say, "WHO" is with me? As stated earlier I will do it alone. I would rather not. It will be easier this way.

Drive!

Sean P.
seanpalmer78597@yahoo.com

PS I'm really tired and I had to type these thing fast as I accidentally deleted the first post while enjoying limited computer use.

Brilliant Sean!
Great post. I agree with 99% of what you said. For you guys to pull it off on a federal level, would take tremendous work - consultation, organization, lawyers, support from the professionals & academics and above all, money. Lots of it. On the large scale of things, to lobby and change laws you need all of the above. And numbers, because to politicians, unfortunately, we just represent votes. So the bottom line will be how many keepers can you get on a national level? Up here in Canada, we would never be able to even consider this on a provincial level, let alone federally. We don't have even 5% of the keepers the US does.
Then, you have to get over the ever-prevalent herper apathy, which is difficult to light a fire under them. Oh and did I say cash? Ooohhh the cash....big time. Banding together is the first hurdle.
Go to it man!
Allen
p.s. - without getting into further debate about it - you may not want to push the whole "Rights" defense too hard when it finally comes down to it. I could be wrong, but I think that could easily be shot down.

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Presumption is the mother of all error..

Thanks guys for your comments. I just dont know what to do and how to go about it. I continue doing internet searches and I find VERY FEW articles explaining why captivity is commendable. The rest of them are cursing it. It's sad that even zoos are under fire these days.
I recently came upon this article if anyone cares to read it, nothing reptile related but I still found it interesting none the less.

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20031004/fob1.asp

I just hope that we can shape up our hobby FAST, before we are all doomed. I agree that the term "rights" are used a little loosely. I still feel that to a point that they are "rights", but more certainly, they are "privileges". Privileges in which and most likely will be taken away. I just hope that we can get our stuff together and shape this hobby up before it's too late. I am willing and able if anyone has any ideas!! I am all for responsible keeping and hopefully will have my website up before too long.

Best Wishes,

Chris

It not a right!!!

As much as some of us wish it to be our right (in this "free country", it's a privilage, not a right to keep hot herps.

We must demonstrate to the general public as well as to the authorities that we will take every precaution possible to protect ourselves as well as the general public. LETS DO THIS PEOPLE!!! Lets show the feds we are for real, that we are not just out for some cheap thrill of owning a hot herp.

We all need to pull together NOW, before it's too late. Venomous herps are my life also, so Lets get it on people, we have one of our privilages to defend.
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Chad Bachman

Just thinking outloud here:

One of the big reasons against keeping venomous is, of course, the danger factor. But, what percentage of keepers are bitten by their venomous captives?

I would be curious to know the percentage of keepers of other types of animals who get stung, bitten, and whatever.

Your right, that is a very good point. I dont necessarily see venomous snake keeping being a major hobby, however, the numbers I am sure have to FAR exceed the amount bitten. Despite that, one bite is one bite too many. I just dont see any legistation members even listening to our side on that.

Chris

One motorcycle wreck doing 75 mph down the interstate is to many, but it happens somewhere in the U.S. everyday, and who's trying to out law motorcycles? Keeping hot snakes is a dangerous hobby, but most keepers I know have never been bitten, and probably never will be. Not that it couldn't happen, Sonny Bono never expected a tree to step out in front of him, and Christopher Reeve expected his horse to jump the rail and not stop on a dime throwing him over. But once again, No one is trying to out law snow skiing, or horse back riding. And who shut down Nascar when that wall hit Dale Earnhardt? Like Sean said "Venomous herpetoculture should not be banned because it's a God Given, American Right." I am only a collector, and that is the best reason I could tell anybody that ask me why I should be allowed to keep them. I do not study venom, I don't even like having to clean it off my spitters glass. I have not milked a snake sense I use to carelessly play with coppers in high school. I have no reason to. I, as with most keepers don't even touch my hot snakes unless I absolutely have to. I'm not a breeder as of yet. I plan on trying it soon, but not really for any conservation reasons. Mainly for a little return financially to help support my hobby. I have been able to educate many people about venomous snakes in a positive light. I have helped many boy scouts earn there Reptile and Amphibian Merit Badge, and even had several troop meetings held at my house. I know I could have done the same thing with a corn snake, But learning about the Venomous snakes was much more exciting. I have nothing to offer the scientific side of the hobby, although I do read every thing I can to learn more from those who do. There has not been any mention as of bans yet in my state, and I hope it doesn't happen because other then loving my animals and it being a God Given, American Right, I haven't got a leg to stand on as to why I should be aloud to keep them. Sorry for rattling on, just thought I would throw in my 2 cents. Billy

thing is, those in charge KNOW the stats....they KNOW that venomous herpetoculture is no threat whatsoever in the whole scope of life......horses kill 10x the people every year, and they're fine.....no one has ever been bitten by someone's venomous snakes.....dogs put 80,000 people in the hospital each year, and there are NO regulations in most of the country....they KNOW that the danger is hardly worth mentioning.....anyone educated on the subject knows that......

so you have to attack something that actually matters......it's all a game of public satisfaction, but MOST of the public either doesn't care one way or another, or they agree with us.....the rest of those that oppose it ARE outnumbered by herpers and "care-nots" when combined......we should appeal to them in some way......they have hobbies......they have things they like.....i personally don't care about some things, but when it could harm my lifestyle later down the line, then i either support them to support myself, or i'm against it......

we have to get through to those who really don't care....they don't have to like what we do, but they have to understand that what we do brings us joy......they may enjoy animals, or working on cars, or anything, and that CAN be taken away just like what we like can be taken.......they only have to agree with our freedom to safely keep these animals, just like people are trusted to safely operate their motor vehicles.....we ONLY need a system to govern it.....proof we're capable, much like a driver's license......

we need to stop trying to convince people it's good, or that it's not bad, or that it's our RIGHT, but we SHOULD make them understand that after they're done with us, then they very well may come after something they like, and they'll not have our support....you scratch my back and i'll scratch your's.....

they also must understand that respectable herpers DO NOT AGREE with those who are reckless or are just not capable of handling hots responsibly.....age doesn't matter to me, because i've seen some useless adults and continue to do so every day.....if you show you're capable, then you're capable......that simple.....they must be told about how we want regulation but without something to regulate, we have nothing.......

we need to push what we WANT, not really what we "don't want"....they may even see it as a compromise on our part......answer all questions for them.....i'm gonna find some way to be active.....