Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here is our second new line of yellow belly's proven out this year. Looks like this little one took the looks of his dad below.

Thanks,
Wyatt

TW Intl Inc.
Dallas, Tx

REALLY PROVE THEM OUT AND SHOW US SOME IVORYS"

I am lost when it comes to "proven line" yellow bellies. In my mind an Ivory should be produced to call it a proven line. If you just produce a baby that looks like one of its parents is no different than a blackback or reduced pattern being produced from a look alike parent. I CAN'T believe all of these are TRUE yellow bellies just because they have THAT "might be" look. I may be way off base here but without a visual morph (Ivory) I don't consider it a proven line. Just my opinion of course. Ron
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The Crawl Space

I agree with you that not all of these can be yellow bellies. But do you really think that if you know what you are looking for in a genetic trait like this that breeders like my self and Bob Clark or Mike Wilbanks would be posting yellow bellies for sale without having even producing an Ivory yet? Trust me these are the real deal!!!!

Thanks,
Wyatt

Do you really want to be associated with those other names you mentioned? I understand that they don't have any white balls either...Hmmmmmmm.. And I agree with the other posters.... Unless you have already produced an ivory yourself???? advertising these as hets is really not the greatest idea...... Sure they look good, and sure they look like snakes that have already proven to be het ivory... But until you have actually produced one yourself, there is NO WAY you can claim these as het ivories.... You might even offer a guarantee that your customers will produce ivories.... and that may be enough for some people... BUT, if you are wrong..... You might be able to refund their money, but how can you refund the years it'll take them to prove them out??????? Just some questions I have....

VOT

VOT,
Obviously you don't stand by your name ( Voice of Truth ), since what you are saying is no where near the truth. Show me where I stated that these were het Ivory's !!! Try reading the a post several tines before you reply. I have never stated that these where hets and that they would produce Ivory's>>>>>

Thanks,
Wyatt

I was ganna say something to the fact that you NEVER said they were HET IVORY, just yellow bellies.... But I believe they will be proven... Thanks David
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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...TRADED..
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (ALL SOLD)

What is a yellow belly if NOT het Ivory? Now I know why I'm so confused, lol. Ron
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The Crawl Space

I'm with you - there are lots of look alikes out there, if it's got the YB label then it must produce ivories, ebonies, super stripes (or whatever they are called) like the proven lines. I wonder are all YBs compatible? There are other morphs where certain lines are not compatible, Does anyone know if this has ever happened with YBs?
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Tosha

"Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed." Don Wood

"Of course, that's only my opinion...and I believe I am God." =) Chris Bianco

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

The picture Wyatt posted is a Yellowbelly.......HET IVORY!!!!!! No doubts!!!!!!!!!!
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Chad Bachman

here to start bleep (if you have not noticed yet), but awsome het Ivories you got there (no doubt in my mind).
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Chad Bachman

Bite me Bachman..... I'm just saying what I think is the truth and nothing more....

VOT

You know that's crap wyatt..... How can you keep a straight face and say that.... You are correct in stating that you never claimed that they were het ivories but that was certainly the implication especially when you dropped the names of those other two..... And yes, they may be 'Ivory' but they are still mainly white in color..... And I don't care how many snakes you've hatched in your life, mother nature has a way of throwing you curveballs. I've always stated that not all yellowbellies will prove out and I stand by that. There is NO WAY that you can guarantee that you can hatch out ivories from your line, until you have actually done it. I realize you will probably never see this since it's already off the front page (only two days later) I just wish I could get on here more often.

VOT

n/p

Wyatt

Let me know how many yellow bellies you got out of that clutch. Also I would like to know how large the clutch was. They look like the real deal to me. Thanks David
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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
0.1 Spider(04)(RDR)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (SOLD)

Just like all pastels will produce a super pastel eventually.......YEs we can say this because we know this........how do we know this.......................thru years of studying and collecting and breeding & we can compare animals that we have proven already.

If someone like Myself or Wyatt or a known breeder has a yellowbelly......you better bet your ARSE that they KNOW what they got and what it will make.

ALL YELLOWBELLIES MAKE IVORIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its that simple........whoud you all be arguing and bickering over this discussion if it were about pastels....

LEt go complain that all these new imported pastels are NOT PASTELS until they produce a super.......are all my pastels fake until i have produced a Super?

NO.........because we know what pastels are and what they look like..........

In due time everyone will know what a Yellowbelly is..........and then you all will be arguing over the next "NEW" morph........

My $.02

Jared H

"...whoud you all be arguing and bickering over this discussion if it were about pastels..."

Umm...that was LAST week. LOL =)

Chris =)
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mean people suck

Jared, this guy knows EVERYTHING ,afterall he has that Invisible Morph, didn't you see it?? I wouldn't mess with him , he's way ahead of the rest of us , LOL, LOL!!! Just don't get into the difference between Homozygeous and Dominant with him as he has lots of books to look at! I agree with you about the YB's if they are true YB ,visual morphs they will all do exactly the same thing , that is produce an Ivory when bred together, after all from what I understand the Ivories have came from unrelated lines (all were YB's but were Unrelated , wild stock in origin) so this should tell MR GENETICS over there something, or perhaps the breeding results are to much for his invisable mind to comprehend!!

Oh, Anthony...

Chris
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mean people suck

Wyatt

A w/c pastel doesn't have to produce a SUPER to prove out. It just has to produce other pastels when bred to a normal. That is a poor example since pastels are a very visual morph in anyones eyes. What gets me lost about the Yb is all the post on THIS VERY forum that say "IT COULD BE ONE" when aomeone asked if they have one and post a pic!!! Breed it and prove it out people tell them. If het Ivories (YB's) are that identifiable then why would anyone say it COULD BE one? Either it is or it isn't, correct? Wyatt if you call it a YB then YES you are saying it can produce Ivories since YB's are het for Ivory. Just because you don't say it those words doesn't mean it doesn't imply that. Now don't get me wrong I HOPE both of you are 100% correct. I was just saying how I'm lost with the PROVEN term being tossed around like that. I have 2 adult female YB's that are pounding rats and getting nice and big. I have a captive bred male coming that will breed them both this coming season. I just hope the w/c females are receptive. If I get an Ivory and I think I should if both lay. That will prove to me that mine are definate YB's but I would still be LOST when others call theirs proven lines without producing an IVORY!! I just want to reiterate that I'm in no way knocking either one of you 2 gentelmen. I was just stating my confusion about YB's. By the way Jared you emailed direct and said I had a definate YB when I posted her pic on the forum a few months back. However another big name posted she was not a YB so that just added to my confusion, lol. Hope you both have great breeding successes. thanks Ron
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The Crawl Space

So here is my opinion:

I totally trust many of the big breeders. And even if for some odd reason the Yellow Belly does not produce an Ivory, I am sure that a big breeder would compensate me somehow.

Besides, they know more about the Yellow Belly than I do. If they feel comfortable risking their hard-earned reputation, then I would feel comfortable risking my investment.

(Of course, I have seen many shady advertisements that purposely avoid any mention of the Ivory. If the Ivory is not mentioned, I would shop elsewhere.)

The only downside is with selling Yellow Belly offspring from my unproven yearling Yellow Belly. If I sell twenty (20) Yellow Belly hatchlings only to eventually discover that my original Yellow Belly is NOT heterozygous for Ivory, then I have to compensate twenty unhappy (20) customers. This could break my business. But I guess that's the gamble with any unproven morph.

The bottom line is:

Buy your heterozygous animals from a reputable breeder...

Chris

PS -- I'd buy one from you, Wyatt! Can I get a 10% off coupon? =)
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mean people suck

CJ,
Let's look at this this way. If you have the reputation and the money to backup and gamble with a trait like the "yellow belly " ball python, then I say go for it !!! If not then step back and let the breeders who put in the years maybe not to have produced an Ivory but have take there own time and money to reproduced what appears to be a yellow belly take all the risk of selling there own animals. Do not think for a minute that I am not always prepared to refund any hard earned cash that is spent on my stock to the individual who purchased it ( under the expected cicumstances of a refund ). I admire your willingness to open peoples eyes to the fact that some of these so called yellow bellies that were imported a week ago may not infact be the real deal, but do understand that the argument that you have started needs to be under your own post and not mine. I mearly have enjoyed taken time to produce what I have and can sell honestly ( unlike some people ). By the way I will trade you one of my yellow bellys and a 10% discount for your new ball morph to see if we can make some true ghost ivory's!!!!

I do encourage you to call me at 469-363-0343 if you would like to discuss this any more!!!

Thanks,
Wyatt

TW Intl Inc.
Dallas, TX

Oops! Sorry. I didn't intend to start an argument. I was only saying that I trust you reputable big breeders.

Again...I am sorry if I offended you or anyone else.

Chris

PS -- And I may call you about a Yellow Belly sometime soon! =)
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mean people suck

No offense was taken at all. I was just saying that you are right when it comes to people buying " yellow belly's " and that they should buy from reputable breeders who know what they are looking for in this trait " I am not saying that not everyone know what they are talking about ". Just do not knock it until you have tried it!!!

Thanks,
Wyatt

TW Intl Inc.
Dallas, Tx

The big difference between yellowbellies and pastels is that a lot of snakes look like YB, but they aren't. A lot of people sell YB, that are normal. A lot of people spend 4-7k on a YB, that is nothing more than an unusual looking normal.

People get taken for a ride on these things almost every day, because most have never seen a real YB. So if I was considering buying a YB (which I am not, because I think white snakes are boring), I would make damn sure that this YB came from a proven line of IVORIES, not other snakes that looked like it. But that is just my opinion.

"But that is just my opinion."

That is my opinion, too. =)

Chris
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mean people suck

The thing is several different lines of yellow bellies have been proven to produce IVORY Ball pythons, Oh yea and they ARE NOT WHITE.....LOL.... They are a IVORY color with a faint yellow stripe, thus the name IVORY.....LOL..... Thanks David
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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...TRADED..
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (ALL SOLD)

Snow, pearl, crystal, ivory, leustic...all the same to me

you can polish a turd, but you just end up with a shiny turd.

...is why wasn't an ivory imported or captive bred sooner? There seems to be so many yellow bellies being imported all of a sudden. Unless, maybe all these imported YBs aren't anything but nice looking normals.

Imported Ivory

Some think that Peter Kahl's original leucistic might be an imported Ivory. I think I read that it's been bred at least twice but I don't think the results where released.

Depending on how randomly they are distributed, hets could be pretty common in the wild without producing many homozygous animals. For example, if 1 in 100 animals where het albino and pairings where random it would only result in 1 in 10,000 het X het pairs and 1 in 40,000 albino babies or about 3 or 4 a year out of around 150,000 ch babies. However, there would be 1,500 ch hets exported.

That was a really good statment.. Thanks david
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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...TRADED..
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (ALL SOLD)