Reptile & Amphibian Forums

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/news/jul03/0702eandt.htm
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Rhac 'n Roll Reptiles http://home.netcom.com/~deadrats/h.htm

So, according to this press release, it's illegal to own "wild animals" in Ohio? Does anybody have documentation or a link to this law? It's also illegal to sell wild animals without a permit? Do they mean for tax reasons, or wildlife conservation reasons? Is that also why a Black Mamba was taken or is it because it's "one of the world’s most poisonous and aggressive snakes?" They don't even know the difference between "poisonous" and "venomous?" This entire situation is a load of crap. They mentioned the "Indian" python, but not the person that had it ON DISPLAY (not for sale). From what I understand, it was a hybrid python anyway, making it I guess only 1/2 illegal..........

Also, I'm sure most of you would agree that the vendors had more than 1 wild animal in posession. Shouldn't there have been multiple counts for EACH snake they had? a clutch of Boa's could cost an arm and a leg in fines. That is, IF it's illegal to posess "wild" animals.

Living in PA, I don't know of any law making it illegal to OWN wild animals (save for certain mammals) but if they don't make the law known, I might be breaking it with my one Mountain Kingsnake? I don't know anymore. Are they making up the laws as they go. If it was illegal to posess any wild animals in Ohio, then why was the columbus show going on for so long without anyone ever being informed of the law? And also, what is their definition or a "wild" animal? Birds, Fish, Reptiles, insects, Amphibians. Have you ever tried to domesticate a Zebra Finch?

Anyway.....now that I'm thoroughly disgusted.....

Thanks
Todd Evans

i am also perplexed by the raid. i live in minesota and have no idea what rules are what. every dnr officer i talk to has a diffrent view on things. what my main question is how do you posses an animal and not keep track of records? is records of purchase, care, health, death? i own no native speices or nothing that is on cites yet.does anybody have an idea what the rules are for minesota? i would hate to hve my entire collection taken because it is not ok to have. does anybody know minnesota laws or where i can go to find them?

In Kansas CIty back several decades, this came up to pass where it would be illegal to own any wild animal, native and non-native. They may have been trying to target reptiles but it's been so long ago I have forgotten. We came up with a question on what constitutes wild animals. They were kind of dumbfounded on thier answer. First they said anything not domestic ? Then it was anything not raised in captivity ? Then they said anything not bred in captivity ? Yep ! They were mighty confused ! We said how about all of them parrotkeets and other birds . How about all of those gold fish and almost ALL tropical fish. The most perlexing question on our side was how were they going to enforce such a law if it did in fact include the above ? SHOT DOWN. I'm not saying that they didn't fine tune the law to specificly name what animals.........but it was over 20 years later untill they got around to it and it now only pertains to having a business without a store front to sell/ breed in some parts of the city, a few laws on size, a few laws on species, a few laws on dangerous species, a few laws on how many animals, etc. Basically there were so many loop holes ( the way the laws were written and not our fault ) that if any laws are enforced in this city, it is very minor. OR IN OTHER WORDS...you have to be doing something very wrong or serious to get busted ! Even then........they have the slightest idea on who or whom should bust you ! Is it the city animal control ? Not normally because they don't have facilties to keep. Is it the local humane society ? No not normally because they are more active on the domestic pet aspect . Is it USDA ( or I guess you could throw in Animal Health )? No not unless it is in violation of federal or state.

Chambo

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/license/pub3_02.htm

The above would appear to be the Ohio regulations as pertain to the "wild animal" issue.

From what I have put together from reading posts to the 'net, talking to folks that were there and to folks that have come to realize who the under cover agents were....

The cops were targeting certain individuals that they had been watching over a long period of time. Those guys and anybody who was tight with them or doing business with them were singled out and hasseled the most. The other thing was any animal that lived in Ohio, flew over Ohio, walked through Ohio or looked similar to any of the former, were contraband and those who had them in their possession were in trouble. Those with exotics were OK. So I take it to mean that "wild animal" covers only those things that happen in the Buckeye state, anything else is not a "wild animal". I did "hear" that folks with endemic species from other states got the business too, like gilas.

The other target was parking lot deals. Which is where the mamba comes in. I believe that unlike PA, Ohio has restrictive venomous laws, and there was a bit of side trading going on outside in hots. This was just plain illegal activity in Ohio, not that it was illegal to make legit deals in parking lots.

So my take is that they were after certain folks and any poor sole that happened to have something that had "could have been born in Ohio" on it got sucked down too. What the "inadequate paper work" refers to is a mystery to me.

The major thing that I see is this vet certification thing, which will kill out of staters in Ohio. From what I have gathered so far, PA has the same thing, but I never ran into it before. Nobody told me anything about it at NOAH when I did Cleveland, and those folks are pretty up front on that sort of thing. So is it a new law or just one that suddenly is being enforced ???

Hope this helps...

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Rhac 'n Roll Reptiles http://home.netcom.com/~deadrats/h.htm

The Fact is, the Black Mamba used to belong to a friend of mine. I was there when he bought it, I lived with him when he owned it, and I watched him build it's cage. From what I heard. these "agents" went to the residence of the person that my frind SOLD the snake to PRIOR to the show. My friend wasn't even at the show, so it wasn't a parking lot deal. The snake was already in this persons posession. It was in a caghe that had a shift box on the left side. when agents wanted to confiscate the snake, the person scared it into the shift box, closed it off and dtached it from the rest of the cage. He didn't argue with them (what good would it have done) The "agent" then asked how to get the snake out and our fried said "that's your problem." From what I know, Ohio doesn't have any venomous restrictions, just like PA. This animal was NOT at the show, and NEVER was at the show. It was taken from this person's house. He never intended on selling it or anything.

This alos leads me to another question. What do they mean by posessing wild animal and failing to keep records? Do they mean posession records? Health records? What are they talking about. Are they asking for proof that this animal was not wild collected?

This Black Mamba deal really gets to me, simpoly because I know this snake personally (not too personally....I'm not that ballsy)
But I've known the snake, I've known it's current owner (befoe it was taken) and I lived with it's prior owner. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the way that this snake was kept. A human being would have NEVER had contact with it in the cage that was designed specifically for it.

Anyway...

Todd Evans

Sorry, my mistake. It has been difficult to sift out truth from hearsay in this whole thing. I was told that there were some questionable deals going on outside, and that, coupled with native species, and pre-selected people made up a lot of the "raid".

I did hear that quite a number of folks were raided at home. There were also stories of busted down doors and drawn guns, but that came second hand so I don't know what is true. Also that many had all sorts of permits on animals that were confiscated anyway. I guess that if you breed native species you have to have some paper work on the origin of the breeders and records on the produced offspring. Then you can verify that it is not wild caught. But of what use is it ??? As in how would it be determined to not be all fabricated ???

Getting back to the mamba. You state "prior" to the show, was it sold prior to the show or was the search of the house prior to the show ?

Also, how did they know the person had it and for what reason was it taken, or was the owner implicated in other things and the snake taken as part of the whole package ??? Not trying to be too nosey, but there are a lot of "stories" running around, and I am becoming less and less sure as to what actually happened.

I searched high and low for anything relating to a PA law on health certificates on herps coming into the state and got zero. Everything relating to reptiles (state wise) seems to be a fish and boat issue and exotics are never mentioned.

Thanx...
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Rhac 'n Roll Reptiles http://home.netcom.com/~deadrats/h.htm

The Mamba was sold prior to the show. I'm not sure how they got to enter the vendors house. He is a regular vendor at the columbus show, Ppittsburgh, Beaver Valley, Hamburg, etc. So maybe they had suspected him of other things. I can tell you though, that this vendor has always had clean, top of the line stuff. He doesn't deal in garbage. That I now for a fact. I personally suspect that the Mamba may have been taken merely because of it's reputation. From what I know, there is no law in Ohio stating that you can not own one.

Another issue with the parking lot deals is that it doesn't seem ot me to be against the law. It is against the rules of the show to sell venomous within the building.

I used to be involved with the Western PA Reptile shows. The only thing we were ever "cracked down" on was selling without charging sales tax. That is a separate issue as far as I'm concerned. The state of PA requires that all regular vendors at shows, expos, flea markets, etc, are required to register for a tax ID number and pay sales tax. They do say that "occasional" vendors are exempt from the law. Essentially, if you only sell one clutch of snakes one time per year, you're exempt. They cracked down on our show because they were tipped off by somebody that doesn't hold us in a very good regard. Nothing ever came of it though, and I ended up with about 50 applications for sales tax registration. According to what they told me, if you sell at Pittsurgh 12 times a year, Beaver valley 6 times a year or so, and hamburg 4 times a year, then you are required to pay sales tax........regardless of what you sell. you just need to be a vendor and that's all. Even out of staters have to follow this rule. The moderator of the show is not responsible for this, the vendors need to know the laws. We decided on our own to make this our responsiblility to inform those vendors so that they could make the decision to risk it or not.

Anyway, back on point. The Mamba was sold in Pennsylvania (truthfully, I'm not sue if it was really sold, or given away.....i'm assuming it was sold) The owner it was taken from lives in Ohio.

anyway

Thanks
Todd Evans

Ok here is what happened with the Black Mamba.
It was my boyfriends and mine. We bought i over a year ago, for the purpose of educational display. However he did not work out to be good for that. The cage he was in was too heavy to transport to schools. So he needed to be placed with another collector, to make room for a snake that would work out better. The right collector was found. After looking up diffent laws to see if it was legal, the only thing that we found was that there was no permit required for any non-native non-endangered venomous reptile in Ohio and Indy.Feeling that we knew the law we delivered the snake. Undercover officers secretly took pictures and taped the conversations that when on that night. They posed as vendors and were hanging out in the hotel room with us. We had no idea that any of this was illegal untill a month later when the mamba was taken. From what we now know the mamba is at a rescue place.

Ok that is what really happened.

prob is hots ARE against the law in Columbus from what I understand and Ohio lets local government set the rules regarding reptiles hot or not .

Kevin
NAROA

The snake was not sold at Columbus, it never was at any show. And the man we sold it to does not live there. We know that Ohio permits venomous ,we know many people that live there and have them.

Hey I understand that but my point is if it enterd the City of Columbus with a no hots law then the mamba can be confescated .

Kevin
NAROA

Todd you are correct that Ohio does not have a law regarding hots . in fact the DNR is not supposed to have any legal power regarding exotic reptiles or amphibians at all . Ohio leaves it up to local government to set the rules . In this case the City of Columbus does not allow hots within the City Limits .

I would hazard a guess that Columbus asked the DNR to take care of any hots that show up . Thats just speculation on my part . On native herps we may buy them or sell them however we must have reptiles pit taged and pay 25.00 for a propegation permit and keep full record of our breeders ( max 4 native collected per species ) until they are sold or pass away .

If your not a breeder the permit is 10.00 with the records and pit tag . Permit fees are per year btw .

Kevin
NAROA

While it was way overblown. I can imagine that there were many illegal sales going on. I have been to herp shows in several states where there were animals for sale that shouldn't have been. The problem is that the laws are not clearly written and vary from state to state and even in different cities. I have contacted every agency in Kentucky and still cannot get a clear answer on what the laws are in Kentucky. I think that maybe DNR needs to offer seiminars on herp and exotics laws at the different reptile expos. Instead of arresting everyone, try and educate first.
As far as the inadequate records, I think if many of the people would have kept accurate records on the origin of their livestock, it would have saved them a lot of trouble. I keep all of my invoices and records on file and take them to shows just in case something like the raid would happen again.