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ACCESS NORTH GEORGIA 13 July 03 About 1,000 apply to hunt in Georgia’s first alligator season
Albany, Ga.(AP): Marine Staff Sgt. Timothy Lewis hunted quail, deer and duck growing up in the Northeast, but they don’t have many gators in Pennsville, N.J.
Now, he and his two buddies hope to get a chance to wander out into swamps and streams in the dead of night to track down the primitive reptiles that can grow to 16 feet and weigh 800 pounds.
Following the lead of Louisiana, Texas, Florida and South Carolina, Georgia is holding its first ever alligator hunting season in September.
Hopefully, it’ll be exciting ... something we’ve never done before, said Lewis, who began hunting as a child in southern New Jersey.
Since his arrival two years ago at Marine Corps Logistics Base Albany, Lewis has found plenty of outdoor opportunities in rural southwestern Georgia, a haven for quail, deer and turkey hunters.
I mostly hunt deer, quail and chase (wild) hogs for farmers, said the electronics technician who assists Marines around the world.
Just being in the woods is something for me, he said. Even if you don’t get anything, you get a chance to think about things and be with your buddies _ camaraderie. Its just a good time.
Lewis and two hunting buddies _ Gunnery Sgt. Seth Tate of Cache, Okla., and Staff Sgt. Barry Quick of Rome, Ga. _ fired off applications when the Georgia Department of Natural Resources announced the alligator season in May.
Its going to be challenging, Tate said. Im not going to go after the biggest one, obviously, just being an amateur. I think Ill stick to ones just above the legal limit.
As of mid-July, the state had received 998 applications.
There’s a lot of interest in this, said DNR spokeswoman Lisa Doty.
Following the July 31 application deadline, the department will pick 180 hunters at random for the Sept. 13-28 hunt, which will include 13 southwestern and coastal counties and a wildlife management area near Valdosta.
Each hunter will pay $50 for a license and even those who come along to assist will have to have licenses. Hunters cannot take alligators that are less than 4 feet long.
Hunting the lizard-like reptiles wont be like shooting deer or birds from afar.
To find alligators, hunters may shine a beam into the darkness and watch for the eerie glow of their eyes. Then they will have to snare the alligators and pull them close to their boats before killing them.
This one could be up close and personal, said wildlife biologist Greg Waters, who runs the states nuisance alligator program. It could be very exciting. My only concern is that ... people will be careful.
Because of state and federal conservation efforts since the 1960s, Georgia’s alligator population has surged from almost none to an estimated 200,000.
Were up to our ears in alligators, said Todd Holbrook, DNR’s chief of game management.
Georgia wildlife officials hope the hunt will help reduce nuisance alligator complaints, while also providing a unique hunting experience.
Many people prefer to steer clear of alligators, even though the state has had only eight human attacks since 1980. None was fatal.
Georgia wildlife officials receive an average of 450 nuisance alligator complaints a year from people who discover them in swimming pools and carports, on golf courses or under houses. Nuisance alligators are killed or moved by the states 13 licensed trappers.
DNR gets countless other complaints about alligators that don’t hang around long enough to become a nuisance. People see them crossing a highway, or walking through a yard, especially during the mating season. Some of these have to be relocated by state workers.
They’re in drainage ditches, yards, garages, right in downtown Albany, said Capt. Ashley Darley, DNRs regional law-enforcement supervisor for southwestern Georgia.
Hunters who are picked can attend training sessions to help them prepare. They must use ropes, snares or harpoons to capture the animals, and then kill them by severing their spinal cords or shooting them with a hand gun or bang stick.
Alligators are quite capable, Holbrook said. Youve got to deal with them with a lot of respect. Its a large animal and it makes its living preying on large animals.
About 1,000 apply to hunt in Georgia’s first alligator season

>>ACCESS NORTH GEORGIA 13 July 03 About 1,000 apply to hunt in Georgia’s first alligator season
>>Albany, Ga.(AP): Marine Staff Sgt. Timothy Lewis hunted quail, deer and duck growing up in the Northeast, but they don’t have many gators in Pennsville, N.J.
>>Now, he and his two buddies hope to get a chance to wander out into swamps and streams in the dead of night to track down the primitive reptiles that can grow to 16 feet and weigh 800 pounds.
>>Following the lead of Louisiana, Texas, Florida and South Carolina, Georgia is holding its first ever alligator hunting season in September.
>>Hopefully, it’ll be exciting ... something we’ve never done before, said Lewis, who began hunting as a child in southern New Jersey.
>>Since his arrival two years ago at Marine Corps Logistics Base Albany, Lewis has found plenty of outdoor opportunities in rural southwestern Georgia, a haven for quail, deer and turkey hunters.
>>I mostly hunt deer, quail and chase (wild) hogs for farmers, said the electronics technician who assists Marines around the world.
>>Just being in the woods is something for me, he said. Even if you don’t get anything, you get a chance to think about things and be with your buddies _ camaraderie. Its just a good time.
>>Lewis and two hunting buddies _ Gunnery Sgt. Seth Tate of Cache, Okla., and Staff Sgt. Barry Quick of Rome, Ga. _ fired off applications when the Georgia Department of Natural Resources announced the alligator season in May.
>>Its going to be challenging, Tate said. Im not going to go after the biggest one, obviously, just being an amateur. I think Ill stick to ones just above the legal limit.
>>As of mid-July, the state had received 998 applications.
>>There’s a lot of interest in this, said DNR spokeswoman Lisa Doty.
>>Following the July 31 application deadline, the department will pick 180 hunters at random for the Sept. 13-28 hunt, which will include 13 southwestern and coastal counties and a wildlife management area near Valdosta.
>>Each hunter will pay $50 for a license and even those who come along to assist will have to have licenses. Hunters cannot take alligators that are less than 4 feet long.
>>Hunting the lizard-like reptiles wont be like shooting deer or birds from afar.
>>To find alligators, hunters may shine a beam into the darkness and watch for the eerie glow of their eyes. Then they will have to snare the alligators and pull them close to their boats before killing them.
>>This one could be up close and personal, said wildlife biologist Greg Waters, who runs the states nuisance alligator program. It could be very exciting. My only concern is that ... people will be careful.
>>Because of state and federal conservation efforts since the 1960s, Georgia’s alligator population has surged from almost none to an estimated 200,000.
>>Were up to our ears in alligators, said Todd Holbrook, DNR’s chief of game management.
>>Georgia wildlife officials hope the hunt will help reduce nuisance alligator complaints, while also providing a unique hunting experience.
>>Many people prefer to steer clear of alligators, even though the state has had only eight human attacks since 1980. None was fatal.
>>Georgia wildlife officials receive an average of 450 nuisance alligator complaints a year from people who discover them in swimming pools and carports, on golf courses or under houses. Nuisance alligators are killed or moved by the states 13 licensed trappers.
>>DNR gets countless other complaints about alligators that don’t hang around long enough to become a nuisance. People see them crossing a highway, or walking through a yard, especially during the mating season. Some of these have to be relocated by state workers.
>>They’re in drainage ditches, yards, garages, right in downtown Albany, said Capt. Ashley Darley, DNRs regional law-enforcement supervisor for southwestern Georgia.
>>Hunters who are picked can attend training sessions to help them prepare. They must use ropes, snares or harpoons to capture the animals, and then kill them by severing their spinal cords or shooting them with a hand gun or bang stick.
>>Alligators are quite capable, Holbrook said. Youve got to deal with them with a lot of respect. Its a large animal and it makes its living preying on large animals.
>>About 1,000 apply to hunt in Georgia’s first alligator season
-----
It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

I don't see anything depressing about it. As much as I like them adult alligators populations need to controlled somehow and I am sure they watch the numbers taken so they don't get to high for the population to cope with. Hunters put more money into conservation of wildlife species in the U.S.A than any other group of people. A little hunting is a good thing for everyone.

I agree. Wild populations do need to be controlled. But I don't like the way that they have to be killed. But it is true that the more licenses are bought to hunt gators, the more money Fish and Game has for conservation. Its a good thing in a bad way.

I agree that hunters are good conservationists and I agree that the wild gator population has to be controlled.

However.....

The cause:
The need to be so concerned about conservation and to have wildlife management programs to preserve species is that the human population can not control it's numbers and is breeding and spreading out of control.

The effect:
Due to the balances of nature being upset by our species ever-widening expansion, other organisms that would be naturally controlled by predator/prey and other relationships now have to be artificially maintained.

My 2-1/2 cents.

Bill

I was coming here today to post what you said here,.. just, in different words. The other day I was too pissed off to post on the subject and would have probably started a flame war. But yes,. it is ALL the result of our (humans) "mess-ups". Left alone, the alligator, like any other non-human organism would fit into and help maintain, a natural balance and would not result in "overpopulating". Actually,.. I seriously doubt that they are in fact, "overpopulated" in terms of their ecosystem, just in terms of how many end up in someones 13 month old yard built next to a creek or swamp. This hunting crap is just an excuse for a bunch of small (minded?) men with big guns to go and blow away a scary animal and feel like a real man. Well it does not make you a real man. Quite the opposite. It only makes you a reeeeaaal,.. (can you say "pussy" on here Bill? just wondering)

But no,.. there are other ways to cull wild populations. Regulating nesting activity is one. And for anyone that is "Pro-economics" in this debate and thinks that selling hunting permits to a bunch of small (minded?) local yokels is the only way to generate funds to further ("help"???) the ever so needy alligator in trouble,.. even more money could be generated by raiding wild nests (and thus greatly reducing future wild populations) and then incubate and farm raise the hatchlings for leather trade. While this may sound barbaric at first, I also realize that less than 4% of wild hatchlings survive to sub-adulthood. So some life in a farm (2-3 years) beats NO life in a swamp. But there is nothing more barbaric and sad than a bunch of subconscious pansies blowing away an adult alligator that has established himself,herself, in their section of the swamp or creek. A magnificent animal that by all rights has nothing to fear. An animal the outsurvived all forms of dinosaur, one that is PERFECT to it's environment,... just to live in a $#%@#ed up world like this where the lowest form of humanoid blows him away with his big-man-gun. It's a sad sad world we have made here.

Good day!

>>I agree that hunters are good conservationists and I agree that the wild gator population has to be controlled.
>>
>>However.....
>>
>>The cause:
>>The need to be so concerned about conservation and to have wildlife management programs to preserve species is that the human population can not control it's numbers and is breeding and spreading out of control.
>>
>>The effect:
>>Due to the balances of nature being upset by our species ever-widening expansion, other organisms that would be naturally controlled by predator/prey and other relationships now have to be artificially maintained.
>>
>>My 2-1/2 cents.
>>
>>Bill
-----
It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

WOW!!!

Brian,

If I came across as anti-hunting, that's not really what I mean't to have come through. Personally, I don't hunt - I used to though.

I don't really know why people hunt, for some, I'm sure, it's the power over the animals trip but I don't think the vast majority are that way. Most hunters I know are truly nature/outdoor lovers who will, after hunting ducks, go out and work for preserving wetlands to help those same ducks. People just have a different sense of what's right as far as the rights of animals is concerned. Maybe the hunting instinct is a hold-over from a previous time when man had to hunt to survive?

My major objections are about causing the animals to suffer. If the shot is clean and true and death is instant, that's one thing. If someone gut-hooks and alligator and lets it sit in the swamp for two days tied to a tree that way, then that's an entirely different matter!

But my post was really about calling a spade a spade by proposing that the need to manage and conserve wildlife is
created by the same human species that is causing the problem in the first place.

One of the people who posts here once in a while often used the following tagline, which I always liked:

Humans aren't the only species on earth, they just act like it

Bill

Brian,

If I came across as anti-hunting, that's not really what I mean't to have come through. Personally, I don't hunt - I used to though.

I don't really know why people hunt, for some, I'm sure, it's the power over the animals trip but I don't think the vast majority are that way. Most hunters I know are truly nature/outdoor lovers who will, after hunting ducks, go out and work for preserving wetlands to help those same ducks. People just have a different sense of what's right as far as the rights of animals is concerned. Maybe the hunting instinct is a hold-over from a previous time when man had to hunt to survive?

My major objections are about causing the animals to suffer. If the shot is clean and true and death is instant, that's one thing. If someone gut-hooks and alligator and lets it sit in the swamp for two days tied to a tree that way, then that's an entirely different matter!

But my post was really about calling a spade a spade by proposing that "the need to manage and conserve wildlife is
created by the same human species that is causing the problem in the first place."

Bill,
I agree with just about everything you said except the for the bit I put in ". Even if there were no humans period the populations would be controlled and in a far less humane way than a single rifle bullet. I would think that most everyone would agree that the natural controls of all predators, disease and starvation although effective is a much harder and less comfortable way to go than a bullet. And though the populations of some species would admittedly be larger than they are at this time they would be controled and in a much uglier fashion.

Seth

Why don't the courts see it that way when a few worthless humans are culled? I just don't get it. If it's quick and painless it should be A-OK. So I agree partly. I just would never waste a croc.

>>
>>Bill,
>>I agree with just about everything you said except the for the bit I put in ". Even if there were no humans period the populations would be controlled and in a far less humane way than a single rifle bullet. I would think that most everyone would agree that the natural controls of all predators, disease and starvation although effective is a much harder and less comfortable way to go than a bullet. And though the populations of some species would admittedly be larger than they are at this time they would be controled and in a much uglier fashion.
>>
>>Seth
-----
It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

Why don't the courts see it that way when a few worthless humans are culled? I just don't get it. If it's quick and painless it should be A-OK. So I agree partly. I just would never waste a croc.

Brian,
I would agree if I believed in evolution. If a person is nothing more that a smart animal there would be nothing wrong with it at all and that is the natural conclusion. However as a creationist I have to wonder how all those that believe evolution claim that anything at all is wrong. If evolution is true the strongest should always win right? Might is right. Correct?

Seth

Okay,... even by that logic I can make a point,.... so because I am stronger than say,... my neighbors,.... I should be able to go bludgeon them all to death with a hammer or heavy lamp. Right? Might is right? Seems that prisons have this same general rule too.

>>
>>
>>Brian,
>>I would agree if I believed in evolution. If a person is nothing more that a smart animal there would be nothing wrong with it at all and that is the natural conclusion. However as a creationist I have to wonder how all those that believe evolution claim that anything at all is wrong. If evolution is true the strongest should always win right? Might is right. Correct?
>>
>>Seth
-----
It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

Okay,... even by that logic I can make a point,.... so because I am stronger than say,... my neighbors,.... I should be able to go bludgeon them all to death with a hammer or heavy lamp. Right? Might is right? Seems that prisons have this same general rule too.
Brian,
My point exactly. If you believed evolution the only problem with that would getting away
from the cops and if you could do that there would be nothing morally wrong with it. Sure
you probably don't really believe that but that would be the logical end if someone truly
and totaly believed in evolution. If you could get away with it there would be nothing
wrong with it. At least according to evolution. Without an ultimate Judge there is
NOTHING wrong.

You are so wrong here it isn't even funny. There is a WHOLE lot more to "believing in evolution" than whatever you may be thinking. And it most certainly is not about getting away with crimes, lol. Furthermore it is more about a LACK of any beliefs, than an actual "belief", and it is really only about accepting facts as facts and accepting science as a fact. You are really misguided if you think that all "evolutionists" are just out to get away with crime. I know I could murder my neighbors and get away with it. Yet I don't. Why is that? Not because I fear reprisal, but because I am a good person and really like them. I don't need a god to be a good person. Crimmeny man,.. get real.

Look,. I have nothing more to say to you. So any posts by you directed at me will go unanswered. Simply because I reccognize the futility of debating, arguing, discussing, ANYTHING with a born again. Yes,. I do know that you are a born again. Only those are as fanatical as you apparently are. I also refuse to respond to any further posts on this subject from you because I want the forum to return to its agreeable exchange of crocodilian lovers' thoughts, insights and experiences. This whole subject has done nothing but taken away from that. And I apologise to the rest of the forum for my part in that.

>>My point exactly. If you believed evolution the only problem with that would getting away
>>from the cops and if you could do that there would be nothing morally wrong with it. Sure
>>you probably don't really believe that but that would be the logical end if someone truly
>>and totaly believed in evolution. If you could get away with it there would be nothing
>>wrong with it. At least according to evolution. Without an ultimate Judge there is
>>NOTHING wrong.
-----
It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

You are so wrong here it isn't even funny. There is a WHOLE lot more to "believing in evolution" than whatever you may be thinking. And it most certainly is not about getting away with crimes, lol. Furthermore it is more about a LACK of any beliefs, than an actual "belief", and it is really only about accepting facts as facts and accepting science as a fact. You are really misguided if you think that all "evolutionists" are just out to get away with crime. I know I could murder my neighbors and get away with it. Yet I don't. Why is that? Not because I fear reprisal, but because I am a good person and really like them. I don't need a god to be a good person. Crimmeny man,.. get real.

Brian,
I NEVER said that all there was to evolution was people "getting away with crimes". All I said there is basically if evolution is true it is not possible to do wrong. Agreed? I said anyone that is an evolutionist can't honestly condemn anything because in that case there is no right or wrong. Not that every evolutionist is going to rush out and kill someone only that it seems hypocritical condemn anyone that did if you were an evolutionist.

Seth

Bill,
I appreciate your mature attitude it has been a pleasure reading your posts the whole three years I have been on this forum. Even on the issues you disagree with people on you don't flame people and stays polite. Since most of the time I am just a reader I would like to take this opportunity to say thanks Bill for all the informative posts over the years. Wish there were more here like you. Keep up the good work.

Seth

Thank you, but I've certainly had my "not-so-shiny" moments over the years too

Bill

Bill,
I appreciate your mature attitude it has been a pleasure reading your posts the whole three years I have been on this forum. Even on the issues you disagree with people on you don't flame people and stays polite. Since most of the time I am just a reader I would like to take this opportunity to say thanks Bill for all the informative posts over the years. Wish there were more here like you. Keep up the good work.

Seth

.

.... I just think that crocodilians deserve more respect. Something about their antiquity. Their majesty. Thier ability to survive planitary catastrophies for 200 million years. Just to be gunned down by a cowardly species that chooses to live where it lives. Perhaps I am fanatical on the subject. So be it. Nothing will ever change the respect and awe I have for crocodilians as a whole. I feel the same about sharks, wolves, bears, whales, etc. And for this subject to be brought to this forum, where not only me, but other animal/reptile lovers have to read about this, is just unnecessary. I have always known about such things. But I don't want to read about it where I come to read the thoughts and share my feelings with other animal lovers. That would be like posting that abortion rates are up tenfold in New York, in a baby lovers forum. And so I spoke my mind on the subject. I really don't care what motivates a hunter to go kill an animal from a distance. It isn't a need for survival anymore. We are in a civilized era now, flying space shuttles around in outer space, for crying out loud. "We" as a whole should be advanced enough to realize that we have to start preserving this planet that we too live on, and its VERY delicate ecosystems. Not killing it. 90% or more of the planets' species are in some form of serious trouble, severely endangered or already extinct. I don't think that shooting a few ducks and then taking measures to ensure the next seasons' game is very noble or helpful in any way. We as a species only take from the planet, and never give back. Our selfish ways will certainly come back to haunt us very soon. It's the "domino effect" my friend. And we too are in the path of our own blind destruction.

>>Brian,
>>
>>If I came across as anti-hunting, that's not really what I mean't to have come through. Personally, I don't hunt - I used to though.
>>
>>I don't really know why people hunt, for some, I'm sure, it's the power over the animals trip but I don't think the vast majority are that way. Most hunters I know are truly nature/outdoor lovers who will, after hunting ducks, go out and work for preserving wetlands to help those same ducks. People just have a different sense of what's right as far as the rights of animals is concerned. Maybe the hunting instinct is a hold-over from a previous time when man had to hunt to survive?
>>
>>My major objections are about causing the animals to suffer. If the shot is clean and true and death is instant, that's one thing. If someone gut-hooks and alligator and lets it sit in the swamp for two days tied to a tree that way, then that's an entirely different matter!
>>
>>But my post was really about calling a spade a spade by proposing that the need to manage and conserve wildlife is
>>created by the same human species that is causing the problem in the first place.
>>
>>One of the people who posts here once in a while often used the following tagline, which I always liked:
>>
>>Humans aren't the only species on earth, they just act like it
>>
>>Bill
-----
It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

I was coming here today to post what you said here,.. just, in different words. The other day I was too pissed off to post on the subject and would have probably started a flame war. But yes,. it is ALL the result of our (humans) "mess-ups". Left alone, the alligator, like any other non-human organism would fit into and help maintain, a natural balance and would not result in "overpopulating". Actually,.. I seriously doubt that they are in fact, "overpopulated" in terms of their ecosystem, just in terms of how many end up in someones 13 month old yard built next to a creek or swamp. This hunting crap is just an excuse for a bunch of small (minded?) men with big guns to go and blow away a scary animal and feel like a real man. Well it does not make you a real man. Quite the opposite. It only makes you a reeeeaaal,.. (can you say "pussy" on here Bill? just wondering)

But no,.. there are other ways to cull wild populations. Regulating nesting activity is one. And for anyone that is "Pro-economics" in this debate and thinks that selling hunting permits to a bunch of small (minded?) local yokels is the only way to generate funds to further ("help"???) the ever so needy alligator in trouble,.. even more money could be generated by raiding wild nests (and thus greatly reducing future wild populations) and then incubate and farm raise the hatchlings for leather trade. While this may sound barbaric at first, I also realize that less than 4% of wild hatchlings survive to sub-adulthood. So some life in a farm (2-3 years) beats NO life in a swamp. But there is nothing more barbaric and sad than a bunch of subconscious pansies blowing away an adult alligator that has established himself,herself, in their section of the swamp or creek. A magnificent animal that by all rights has nothing to fear. An animal the outsurvived all forms of dinosaur, one that is PERFECT to it's environment,... just to live in a $#%@#ed up world like this where the lowest form of humanoid blows him away with his big-man-gun. It's a sad sad world we have made here.

Good day!

Brian,
Ouch, your a little upset aren't you. If you can stop bashing hunters every other sentence I would appreciate it if you would calmly explain why you are against hunting and not against collecting eggs for hide farms. I am not against hide farming or hunting as long as reasonable standards are maintained. However as it appears that hide farming doesn't bother you but hunting does would you explain why it bothers you? You are a aware that in most cases the farmed animals are killed with an ax or a bullet to the brain are you not? In your opinion what is this different than hunting in the effect on the animal? I will not argue with you over the statements hunters are the "lowest form of humanoid" hunt to feel like "real men" etc. as it seems from your statments you have had little real contact with any.
Please keep it calm and mature. Also I never said or heard anyone else say that selling alligator permits was the only thing that funded alligator conservation. Just one of many.

Seth

Forgive me for saying this,. but you seem a little dense today. I said in my sentences why nest raiding, hide farming is not as damaging. FIRST,.. only maybe 2 out of a hundred baby gators make it to a mature breeding size/age. So the other 98% were, in effect, destined to die anyway. By putting them in a farm they have a few years of life that they would not have had otherwise. It's a win win for them for 3 years. And SECONDLY, by killing the adults that are already established in the wild, in their section of swamp, it is doing a MAJOR dis-service to the wild gators. There are many reasons why this is bad. First of all, the strongest and most cunning gators survived to be there to breed and pass on their dominant genes. So by blowing them away,.. we in effect weaken the living gator population as a whole. Secondly,. by surviving to get there he/she deserves to be there and to be left alone! And third, the babies hatched into captivity don't really know any different. To them that is their life and they accept it. The gators living in the wild are wild and should be left to the laws of the wild.

I really don't expect you, or anyone on your level to ever actually get what I'm saying here. I have had numerous debates such as this with people such as you over the last 30 years and never is logic soaked in and accepted. So post what you will. I don't respect you or your view on this, nor will I ever. I base what I feel and what I think I know is right, on what FEELS "right", not on some old ignorant doctrine passed on to me unsolicited as the end-all, be-all manual for "who" and "what" I "should" be. I am a free thinker with my own ideas. I am not the product of brainwashing, conformity or the adoption of the ideas, ethics or beliefs of a ignorant past culture that makes excuses or ingrains justification to make it okay be hideous.

See if you get that.

>>
>>Brian,
>>Ouch, your a little upset aren't you. If you can stop bashing hunters every other sentence I would appreciate it if you would calmly explain why you are against hunting and not against collecting eggs for hide farms. I am not against hide farming or hunting as long as reasonable standards are maintained. However as it appears that hide farming doesn't bother you but hunting does would you explain why it bothers you? You are a aware that in most cases the farmed animals are killed with an ax or a bullet to the brain are you not? In your opinion what is this different than hunting in the effect on the animal? I will not argue with you over the statements hunters are the "lowest form of humanoid" hunt to feel like "real men" etc. as it seems from your statments you have had little real contact with any.
>>Please keep it calm and mature. Also I never said or heard anyone else say that selling alligator permits was the only thing that funded alligator conservation. Just one of many.
>>
>>Seth
-----
It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

Forgive me for saying this,. but you seem a little dense today. I said in my sentences why nest raiding, hide farming is not as damaging. FIRST,.. only maybe 2 out of a hundred baby gators make it to a mature breeding size/age. So the other 98% were, in effect, destined to die anyway. By putting them in a farm they have a few years of life that they would not have had otherwise. It's a win win for them for 3 years. And SECONDLY, by killing the adults that are already established in the wild, in their section of swamp, it is doing a MAJOR dis-service to the wild gators. There are many reasons why this is bad. First of all, the strongest and most cunning gators survived to be there to breed and pass on their dominant genes. So by blowing them away,.. we in effect weaken the living gator population as a whole. Secondly,. by surviving to get there he/she deserves to be there and to be left alone! And third, the babies hatched into captivity don't really know any different. To them that is their life and they accept it. The gators living in the wild are wild and should be left to the laws of the wild.

I really don't expect you, or anyone on your level to ever actually get what I'm saying here. I have had numerous debates such as this with people such as you over the last 30 years and never is logic soaked in and accepted. So post what you will. I don't respect you or your view on this, nor will I ever. I base what I feel and what I think I know is right, on what FEELS "right", not on some old ignorant doctrine passed on to me unsolicited as the end-all, be-all manual for "who" and "what" I "should" be. I am a free thinker with my own ideas. I am not the product of brainwashing, conformity or the adoption of the ideas, ethics or beliefs of a ignorant past culture that makes excuses or ingrains justification to make it okay be hideous.

See if you get that

Brian,
Whew, I see you ignored my request to keep it mature. I read somewhere once that only people that feel that they are losing a debate find it necessary to call names and attempt to insult the other party. Well I won't bite. I am not going to call you stupid to. I don't flame people. Have you been to Louisiana or anywhere else that had gators lately? any shortage of gators 5-8ft.? As to gators in captivity not knowing any different what does that matter? dead is dead wild or captive. As to the individual alligators having "earned" the right to survive what do can you possibly base that on? "the strongest and most cunning survive" I don't know what you base that on certainly the real dummies die out but the strongest 9in. alligator is no match for even a raccoon let alone anything larger. As for the most cunning I don't think I ever saw an alligator that could be called cunning. Shy yes aggressive yes but cunning? afraid not. Maybe someone else has but not me. Lucky would a better term to describe the survival of hatchlings. Of course because of the "level" I am on maybe I am just being "dense" again for not agreeing with you. One funny thing, most all the "free thinkers" have the same ideas, and they all thought it up on there own with no no help from anyone else. Remarkable!

Seth

I would also like to apologize to anyone I may have offended. I love alligators as well as other animals and I get very passionate about any issue involving killing them. I did not mean to get personal with anyone in particular, nor to insult or criticize anyone's beliefs. This was cited in an argument posted directly to me and I responded badly. I still stand by any position I have stated where the slaughter of wild alligators is concerned.

Good day to all, and I would like to humbly request that Kingsnake personel delete this entire inciteful thread. Thank you.

>>>>ACCESS NORTH GEORGIA 13 July 03 About 1,000 apply to hunt in Georgia’s first alligator season
>>>>Albany, Ga.(AP): Marine Staff Sgt. Timothy Lewis hunted quail, deer and duck growing up in the Northeast, but they don’t have many gators in Pennsville, N.J.
>>>>Now, he and his two buddies hope to get a chance to wander out into swamps and streams in the dead of night to track down the primitive reptiles that can grow to 16 feet and weigh 800 pounds.
>>>>Following the lead of Louisiana, Texas, Florida and South Carolina, Georgia is holding its first ever alligator hunting season in September.
>>>>Hopefully, it’ll be exciting ... something we’ve never done before, said Lewis, who began hunting as a child in southern New Jersey.
>>>>Since his arrival two years ago at Marine Corps Logistics Base Albany, Lewis has found plenty of outdoor opportunities in rural southwestern Georgia, a haven for quail, deer and turkey hunters.
>>>>I mostly hunt deer, quail and chase (wild) hogs for farmers, said the electronics technician who assists Marines around the world.
>>>>Just being in the woods is something for me, he said. Even if you don’t get anything, you get a chance to think about things and be with your buddies _ camaraderie. Its just a good time.
>>>>Lewis and two hunting buddies _ Gunnery Sgt. Seth Tate of Cache, Okla., and Staff Sgt. Barry Quick of Rome, Ga. _ fired off applications when the Georgia Department of Natural Resources announced the alligator season in May.
>>>>Its going to be challenging, Tate said. Im not going to go after the biggest one, obviously, just being an amateur. I think Ill stick to ones just above the legal limit.
>>>>As of mid-July, the state had received 998 applications.
>>>>There’s a lot of interest in this, said DNR spokeswoman Lisa Doty.
>>>>Following the July 31 application deadline, the department will pick 180 hunters at random for the Sept. 13-28 hunt, which will include 13 southwestern and coastal counties and a wildlife management area near Valdosta.
>>>>Each hunter will pay $50 for a license and even those who come along to assist will have to have licenses. Hunters cannot take alligators that are less than 4 feet long.
>>>>Hunting the lizard-like reptiles wont be like shooting deer or birds from afar.
>>>>To find alligators, hunters may shine a beam into the darkness and watch for the eerie glow of their eyes. Then they will have to snare the alligators and pull them close to their boats before killing them.
>>>>This one could be up close and personal, said wildlife biologist Greg Waters, who runs the states nuisance alligator program. It could be very exciting. My only concern is that ... people will be careful.
>>>>Because of state and federal conservation efforts since the 1960s, Georgia’s alligator population has surged from almost none to an estimated 200,000.
>>>>Were up to our ears in alligators, said Todd Holbrook, DNR’s chief of game management.
>>>>Georgia wildlife officials hope the hunt will help reduce nuisance alligator complaints, while also providing a unique hunting experience.
>>>>Many people prefer to steer clear of alligators, even though the state has had only eight human attacks since 1980. None was fatal.
>>>>Georgia wildlife officials receive an average of 450 nuisance alligator complaints a year from people who discover them in swimming pools and carports, on golf courses or under houses. Nuisance alligators are killed or moved by the states 13 licensed trappers.
>>>>DNR gets countless other complaints about alligators that don’t hang around long enough to become a nuisance. People see them crossing a highway, or walking through a yard, especially during the mating season. Some of these have to be relocated by state workers.
>>>>They’re in drainage ditches, yards, garages, right in downtown Albany, said Capt. Ashley Darley, DNRs regional law-enforcement supervisor for southwestern Georgia.
>>>>Hunters who are picked can attend training sessions to help them prepare. They must use ropes, snares or harpoons to capture the animals, and then kill them by severing their spinal cords or shooting them with a hand gun or bang stick.
>>>>Alligators are quite capable, Holbrook said. Youve got to deal with them with a lot of respect. Its a large animal and it makes its living preying on large animals.
>>>>About 1,000 apply to hunt in Georgia’s first alligator season
>>-----
>>It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]
-----
It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

I would also like to apologize to anyone I may have offended. I love alligators as well as other animals and I get very passionate about any issue involving killing them. I did not mean to get personal with anyone in particular, nor to insult or criticize anyone's beliefs. This was cited in an argument posted directly to me and I responded badly. I still stand by any position I have stated where the slaughter of wild alligators is concerned.

Good day to all, and I would like to humbly request that Kingsnake personel delete this entire inciteful thread. Thank you.

Brian,
Tsk, Tsk, I don't think anyone was bothered but you. I take no offence in spite of your insults. If this thread bothered anyone else please respond and say so.
Thanks
Seth

This thread wasn't offensive, just a waste of my time, and I'm sure a few other peoples'. I think a total of 4 posts were actually productive and on subject. If you wanted to bicker you could have done it through e-mail. Deleting the part of the thread that was just the argument/debate between Brian and Seth would save a lot of peoples' time when they are browsing the posts and see this thread. Just my opinion and none of that is meant to insult or "flame" anyone.

This thread wasn't offensive, just a waste of my time, and I'm sure a few other peoples'. I think a total of 4 posts were actually productive and on subject. If you wanted to bicker you could have done it through e-mail. Deleting the part of the thread that was just the argument/debate between Brian and Seth would save a lot of peoples' time when they are browsing the posts and see this thread. Just my opinion and none of that is meant to insult or "flame" anyone.

I agree. It got of topic. Should have stayed on the origional line of thought. To bad those things tend to happen. I guess thats what happens when people talk. I don't think anyone could take your post as an insult. Thanks for your imput.

Seth

If you are looking for info on why your caiman won't eat this long message is'nt for you.
Best thread I have read in ages. Religion and crocs how can you go wrong.
Seth Seth Seth.
1) Crocodilians are cunning. Everyone knows it. Most predators are. Hence the ambush technique of killing their prey. Crocodilians actually "study" their prey and if habits occur ; water crossings or water collecting they lie in wait.
In a captive situation I worked with a large pair of gators when it was time to feed I would open the upper half of a gate across the pen the female gator would swim rapidly and aggressively toward me for her food. The male would submerge in the dark green water(where I could'nt see him) then explode out of the water literally in my face. He was sneaking up on his prey. Like I said ALL predators are cunning that is what they are.
2)The problem with hunters. They want to kill the biggest and the baddest. The largest saltwater, or african lion has no qualms about killing the young ,the old ,or the infirmed.
Hunters want trophies which is why we won't see any 16 foot alligators.
3)I won't spend much time on this. I'm an atheist. But IF there was a god would'nt they be pissed off? All this beautiful nature. We pollute and kill off species daily of plants and animals. My religious upbringing(it was extensive) taught me we were here to be "keepers" of the earth not rape, ravage and kill everything for our benefit. At one time I wanted to make a t-shirt that said,
"If I were a religious man, I'd pray there is'nt a god."
Something that powerful knowing I had willingly ruined their earth,their creation. Judgement day would not be good.
4)Evolution(last one I promise) or nature is'nt right or wrong it just is. Nature will always survive. I have no doubt that homo sapiens will destroy this world. As we know it. I also know that it will come back even if it takes a million years or more. The extermination of a species is'nt right or wrong its just sad. And in this case unnecesary. D.C.

I still stand behind everything I said. And I would say it again if I thought it was doing any good. But there comes a time to give it up because the information isn't being accepted,.. you know. One can't force square pegs in round holes you know. Or put a peg where there is no hole at all. And so I gave it up. Besides, all that could be said, had been said and I really didn't want to further "negative" up this forum. I like this forum and (most) of the people in it and want to help keep it real nice and pleasant to be here. But I tell ya man,.. if I was ever out in the swamps where a hunter was attempting to kill a gator,... that gator would be juuuusssst fine.

>>If you are looking for info on why your caiman won't eat this long message is'nt for you.
>>Best thread I have read in ages. Religion and crocs how can you go wrong.
>>Seth Seth Seth.
>>1) Crocodilians are cunning. Everyone knows it. Most predators are. Hence the ambush technique of killing their prey. Crocodilians actually "study" their prey and if habits occur ; water crossings or water collecting they lie in wait.
>>In a captive situation I worked with a large pair of gators when it was time to feed I would open the upper half of a gate across the pen the female gator would swim rapidly and aggressively toward me for her food. The male would submerge in the dark green water(where I could'nt see him) then explode out of the water literally in my face. He was sneaking up on his prey. Like I said ALL predators are cunning that is what they are.
>>2)The problem with hunters. They want to kill the biggest and the baddest. The largest saltwater, or african lion has no qualms about killing the young ,the old ,or the infirmed.
>>Hunters want trophies which is why we won't see any 16 foot alligators.
>>3)I won't spend much time on this. I'm an atheist. But IF there was a god would'nt they be pissed off? All this beautiful nature. We pollute and kill off species daily of plants and animals. My religious upbringing(it was extensive) taught me we were here to be "keepers" of the earth not rape, ravage and kill everything for our benefit. At one time I wanted to make a t-shirt that said,
>>"If I were a religious man, I'd pray there is'nt a god."
>>Something that powerful knowing I had willingly ruined their earth,their creation. Judgement day would not be good.
>>4)Evolution(last one I promise) or nature is'nt right or wrong it just is. Nature will always survive. I have no doubt that homo sapiens will destroy this world. As we know it. I also know that it will come back even if it takes a million years or more. The extermination of a species is'nt right or wrong its just sad. And in this case unnecesary. D.C.
-----
It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

Seth Seth Seth.
1) Crocodilians are cunning. Everyone knows it. Most predators are. Hence the ambush technique of killing their prey. Crocodilians actually "study" their prey and if habits occur ; water crossings or water collecting they lie in wait.
In a captive situation I worked with a large pair of gators when it was time to feed I would open the upper half of a gate across the pen the female gator would swim rapidly and aggressively toward me for her food. The male would submerge in the dark green water(where I could'nt see him) then explode out of the water literally in my face. He was sneaking up on his prey. Like I said ALL predators are cunning that is what they are.

Danny,
I will try to stay on the subject of crocodilians.
I totaly agree with those examples and could add some more as well. However I was and am of the opinion that that those kinds of incidences come under the category of instinct. To me at least cunning implies an advanced reasoning ability that I have never seen evidenced. I am willing to consede the point though
because I am aware that there can be a very fine line between "cunning" and instinct. I can't say I think crocodilians show a very advanced reasoning ability but if you do I certainly have no problem with that as I can't say the evidence is conclusive one way or the other. Anyone else have imput on this? What do you think?

P.S. I agree that people should be stewards of the earth and not decimators of it. That is one of the reasons I support conservation.

Seth

SYLLABICATION: cun·ning
PRONUNCIATION: knng
ADJECTIVE: 1. Marked by or given to artful subtlety and deceptiveness. 2. Executed with or exhibiting ingenuity. 3. Delicately pleasing; pretty or cute: a cunning pet.
NOUN: 1. Skill in deception; guile. 2. Skill or adeptness in execution or performance; dexterity.
ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, present participle of connen, to know, from Old English cunnan. See gn- in Appendix I.
OTHER FORMS: cunning·ly —ADVERB
cunning·ness —NOUN

This is from the The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

I would relate the noun cunning to crocs, and many other predators who use camaflage, and cover to gain an advantage on thier prey. I would say that cunning, weither a gift of instinct or the abilaty to adapt to situations, is still cunning -

Raven -

I actually need to retract what I said. If I said all predators are cunning I actually don't believe that. I do think crocodilians are extremely cunning along with big cats, wolves etc.
But I don't think snakes are particularly cunning. Alligator snappers have a "cunning" way of catching their food but they certainly are not cunning. I'm embarrassed to say I am not enough of a lizard expert to make a guess one way or another for them.
I guess I feel an animal is cunning if it changes its behavior to help it increase the odds of obtaining a meal. If an animal can take the exact same circumstance and react with multple reactions I feel that is more than instinct. D.C.

.

.

I actually need to retract what I said. If I said all predators are cunning I actually don't believe that. I do think crocodilians are extremely cunning along with big cats, wolves etc.
But I don't think snakes are particularly cunning. Alligator snappers have a "cunning" way of catching their food but they certainly are not cunning. I'm embarrassed to say I am not enough of a lizard expert to make a guess one way or another for them.
I guess I feel an animal is cunning if it changes its behavior to help it increase the odds of obtaining a meal. If an animal can take the exact same circumstance and react with multple reactions I feel that is more than instinct. D.C.

Danny,
Just because an animal "changes its behavior to increase the odds of obtaining a meal" i.e. opportunistic does that really make it cunning? All the animals you mentioned as animals you believed not to be cunning will change their behavior to increase the odds of obtaining a meal. For instance, young alligator snappers will often chase their prey in a small tank just like a common snapper will. Most any turtle in time will learn to come to the side of the tank when fed there and even my bolder poison frogs will come rushing to the spot I usually feed them and look up(very funny) when I open the lid to their tank but does that make them all cunning?
If that definition of cunning is correct than any animal that can learn any behavior should be called "cunning". I feel that how long it takes to learn its "cunning" behavior and how many different behaviors it can learn is a better method for deciding what animals are cunning. Although several of my dart frogs have changed their behavior to increase the odds of obtaining a meal I don't think anyone could really think they are "cunning". However if they are than almost every animal is cunning in one way or another. I guess it just depends on ones definition of "cunning" if crocodilians are cunning or not. Please let me know what you think.

Seth

>>I actually need to retract what I said. If I said all predators are cunning I actually don't believe that. I do think crocodilians are extremely cunning along with big cats, wolves etc.
>>But I don't think snakes are particularly cunning. Alligator snappers have a "cunning" way of catching their food but they certainly are not cunning. I'm embarrassed to say I am not enough of a lizard expert to make a guess one way or another for them.
>>I guess I feel an animal is cunning if it changes its behavior to help it increase the odds of obtaining a meal. If an animal can take the exact same circumstance and react with multple reactions I feel that is more than instinct. D.C.
>>
>>Danny,
>> Just because an animal "changes its behavior to increase the odds of obtaining a meal" i.e. opportunistic does that really make it cunning? All the animals you mentioned as animals you believed not to be cunning will change their behavior to increase the odds of obtaining a meal. For instance, young alligator snappers will often chase their prey in a small tank just like a common snapper will. Most any turtle in time will learn to come to the side of the tank when fed there and even my bolder poison frogs will come rushing to the spot I usually feed them and look up(very funny) when I open the lid to their tank but does that make them all cunning?
>>If that definition of cunning is correct than any animal that can learn any behavior should be called "cunning". I feel that how long it takes to learn its "cunning" behavior and how many different behaviors it can learn is a better method for deciding what animals are cunning. Although several of my dart frogs have changed their behavior to increase the odds of obtaining a meal I don't think anyone could really think they are "cunning". However if they are than almost every animal is cunning in one way or another. I guess it just depends on ones definition of "cunning" if crocodilians are cunning or not. Please let me know what you think.
>>
>>Seth
-----
It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

Brian,
I really don't see why this upsets you. It is on topic, no one is mad or bickering and the intelligence or "cunning" of crocodilians is a imformative discussion thats not often been discussed here. And I am perfectly willing to change my mind about their "cunning" or brains if you will. Since the one other person posted that he disliked people getting off topic I have attempted to stick to crocodilians and fully intend to remain on topic. I don't think anyone else thinks the intelligence of crocodilians is of topic on a crocodilian forum but if so please say so and I will shut my mouth.... or fingers. LOL Sure hope I havn't affended anyone.

Seth

i am not saying anything as i havent a clue..except this.........lol......
this is from the oxford dictionary uk.....

cun•ning /kn/ adj., noun
adj.
1 (disapproving) able to get what you want in a clever way, especially by tricking or deceiving sb: a cunning liar He was as cunning as a fox.
2 clever and skilful: It was a cunning piece of detective work.
cun•ning•ly adv.: The microphone was cunningly concealed in the bookcase.
noun the ability to achieve sth by tricking or deceiving other people in a clever way: It took energy and cunning just to survive. She used low cunning (= dishonest behaviour) to get what she wanted.