Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i am creating a rather large terrarium with a water feature.id like to have all areas covered,air(trees)land,and water. i am going to have dart frogs,small tree frogs,and i would like to add an albino horned frog to live in the swampy area,but im sure i dont have to mention why the horned frog wouldnt work.i just refuse to accept the fact that i cant have a horned frog.i love them so much and i just keep picturing my terrarium featuring a horned frog buried in substrate with just his eyes pearing out,waiting for his next meal.now that i think about it,i think i may not get an albino,maybe the species with the really large horns instead.anyway,considering how little they move,and how little bit of space they really need,i was thinking about a way to allow him in the enclosure,but kinda keep him in jail.kinda display him in the terrarium but seclude him to the corner with some sort of wall or barrier to prevent him from coming into contact with the smaller animals.any ideas? id like something that wouldnt been seen easily and that would blend in with the environment.im sure i could arrange sticks and natural objects in the tank to keep him where i want him,but that doesnt keep the other animals away from him.thats where im stuck.im sure this can be done with a little creative thinking.any help would really be appreciated.

Put a glass divider in the tank. You can't let your other frogs near the pac man or they will be food.
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Josh Willard
www.joshsfrogs.com

Dart frogs require very different conditions with temperature and humidity and territory than the others your are suggesting. Before you mix even species, let alone different genera, I think you should have some experience with each type of frog in a separate habitat. Then, you won't even want to try it. They just do not mix together, period. There are a thousand reasons why not. While you can separate them with dividers, as Josh suggests, the entire tank will not be able to suit all of them as far as temperature, territory, humidity, etc. Why not set up separate tanks for each and enjoy them as healthy, happy individuals?
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus

I would suggest not mixing them. The surinam horn frog, the species with the largest horns. Is also the one with the longest and strongest legs. They're very mobile campared to the ornate or cranwelli. Mine jump about they're terrariums with ease. They also prefer tempuratures as high as 85 degrees, which is a bit hot for dart frogs.
An if one of these horn frogs gets a frog as a meal, it will usually stubbornly refuse to eat anything but frogs.
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1.0.0 C. cranwelli
0.0.1 C. cranwelli x cornuta
1.0.0 yellow C. cornuta
0.0.2 green C. cornuta
1.1.0 Bufo regularis
1.0.1 D. leucomelas
0.0.2 P. Terribilis

i couldnt disagree more.i understand about the horn frog thing .but i have seen tree frogs and darts mixed on several occasions,and they lived this way for several years.i hear your argument slayton that darts need "EXTREMELY" different humidity and temps that tree frogs do,but when asked how the temps and humidity should be "EXTREMELY" different,none of the people that say that have an answer.i feel the people that say these things would like you to believe that keeping darts is like rocket science.the truth is,tropical tree frogs,like phylomedusa,red eyes,milky caves,ect. live in the same rainforest as many of the commonly kept darts do.if they live side by side in the wild,then the conditions would be the same in captivity.again i understand that some animals dont make good tank mates,some may eat others,fight for the same areas,ect.but please dont say the reason they shouldnt be mixed is because they require extremely different humididty and temp conditions,because this just isnt true.many people ,like me,who frequent this forum,are newcomers to darts and are looking for answers to questions that cant be found in books.if i was asking if i can house a chuckwalla in my terrarium with darts and tropical tree frogs,then your answer would have been correct,but i didnt ask that.im not trying to be a jerk,but i think its important to maintain the integrity of forums like these.mistakes should be corrected and people,who dont know what they are talking about should try and refrain from posting just for the sake of posting.again,sorry if i come of rude,thats not my intention.

you can arrange the rocks and tank objects to seclude him to a corner of the tank that has shallow water,small land area.it has to be in a corner for this idea to work.keep that area recessed with a slight wall around the area keeping him from climbing out.then i would think of a way to make a strong,but realistic looking fake spider web,and use this as a net to keep out all other animals youd like out of the area.i dont know how youd make the fake web but i think it would solve your problem with making a divider that looks like it belongs in the tank and is natural.i would position the corner to be one in the front of the tank,this way the fake web doesnt obstruct your view of the horned frog.good luck.i didnt say it was a perfect idea but i think its a good one.maybe someone reading this has a suggestion on what material could be used to make the web.they sell fake spider webs for halloween online but they are not strong enough to serve this purpose.

Even excluding the different specifics of each frog, one would have to make the barrier go beneath the substrate. Horned frogs also still need sufficient space; unless you kept it on a diet of only pinkie mice, prey such as crickets, mealworms, etc would easily escape the boundaries a horned frog could not. Crickets gang up on anything, no matter the size (and a few crickets would easily take down a dart frog), will destroy the balance of your habitat (eat plants, die and mold, etc), and possibly break down the landscape. I've seen mealworms and similar prey items eat through cork bark and such, mature, and breed. I'm not saying its a bad idea to use an artificial boundary, but for a frog such as a horned frog I believe it impossible. The possibility of mixing them is basically undoable, even excluding the different requirements and territories.
ps: many frogs such as horned frogs are not modifier species, and if not captive born in such a habitiat, would die. It is common with tomato frogs who are bought in a simple set up of peatmoss and a bowl, and are put into a beautiful vivarium, where such bacteria (detrimentaly and beneficial balancing) thrive.
-Sean

Assuming that a different genus of frog, as you are suggesting, comes from the same area as whatever dart you want to keep, there is another consideration, and that is that in a rainforest situation, there are usually many meters of distance between the various frog habitats, not merely inches, as we have to work with in our frog vivariums. The conditions are different, and keeping them separately allows us to moderate them to suit individuals, whether it is the type of plants that suit each, or in the ease of monitoring. This pertains to not only plants that a larger tree frog may destroy, but darts have no particular impact upon, competition, but also the food and vitamin supplements, which are different. What I suggested was that you raise each separately before you mix them--not that you would never be able to decide to mix them and do it successfully, with the other suggestions of how to do it that have been given.

I have frankly raised only darts, and an incidental desert toad,
geckos and lizards, so am mostly concerned with the welfare of darts. After observing the darts separately for over 6 years, I have no desire to even mix different species of darts, let alone combine them with another frog genus. I do realize that mixing unrelated dart species has been done successfully by experienced hobbyists, but I've never seen a hobby tank that has contained several different genera that includes darts, unless it was a rather large, open display.

You said this was your first dart experience, and I gave my opinion from my six years of exerpience with several species of them. It's your money-- you asked and got some answers. I feel bad that you thought mine was uninformed and I shouldn't post my ignorance on the forum. But you did ask the question. If you knew the answer already, why not just go for it and ignore the forums?
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus

Consider both sides. Some frogs dont mix for good reason others will.

Some species come from similar or identical habitats. Things to consider temperature, humidity, biotopes (forest,woodland, desert, grasslands, etc...), food source, and seasonal changes. All of these have to match before you consider to keep different species. Also make sure they are not going to compete for space. Dont mix two species that live in rock crevises like D. azureus and M. expectata. Also dont mix species that would compete for tadpole placements like D. pumilio and certain centronella species with their choice bromeliads(also consider pumilio's aggression).

A good mix (in my opinion) would be D. azureus (or tincts), with Hyperolius viridiflavus ssp. Both live along rocky streams, they require the same temperatures and similar seasonal changes, they eat the same foods (minute bugs) and they live in different parts of the environment, one lives in rocky caves(azureus) and the other lives up on the vegetation. Both are aggressive towards their own but ignore other frogs. They live from different parts of the world so strict quarintine is a must. Ive kept these species for about six years now (seperately) and I put them together about 6 months ago. They are still chubby and breeding like guppies. No signs of stress at all. I have 1.1 azureus and 2.3 hyperolious In a 75 gal. Plywood vivarium with 3D viewing. I also have small geckos (Phelsuma quadrioccelatta) and some chameleons (Brokesia). Temperature ranges from high 80 at towards the top of the tank (up on the ficus trees) and about 75 towards the bottom.

Please do not compromise the animals well-being. Plan ahead...far ahead. get some experience under your belt then decide wich animals will thrive side by side. The bigger the space and the fewer animals you add, the better, both for them and you, you will see them more often, hear them call and breed. Consider everything and dont leave anything out, if something doesnt match at all- dont mix.

A rule of thumb on this subject- If you have to ask,dont do it.

Go to Amphibiacare.com FAQ section youll get exellent info. Most species do not mix at all, youll need to do alot or reaserch and get some experience before you know for sure who will mix. These are my two cents, keep looking and youll find someone with five cents (more experience on the subject) to answer more questions. Happy frog shopping!