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And other such non accurate things.

I really would have hoped there was a greater understanding of kingsnakes then there is now. I am sure someone out there has some sort of understanding of what kingsnakes do.

Please don't confuse breeding success with understanding kingsnakes, In most cases here, breeding success is simply following instructions(recipe, caresheet, etc)

I am not trying to insult or offend anyone but that does automatically happen, when you present thoughts that differ from what you hoped was accurate(your particular beliefs)

About photoperiod and terms like nocturnal and diurnal with the tweener crespuscular. How do these actually fit kingsnakes?

Kingsnakes are fossorial or subterrainian. That is, the vast majority of their life is underground or inside something. This means they do all life events inside not outside. Yes, they venture outside(above the ground) but kinda like we do when we go swimming in the ocean. I wonder if fish think we are aquatic? Do you actually get this meaning? We use the ocean for certain needs and kingsnakes use the surface for certain needs, but we can both do with it.

I understand how photoperiod effects a rooted plant thats either in the sun or shade or both. But how does it effect an animal that lives in the dark tunnels down in the ground where lite does not penetrate. Lets make this a little clearer, I understand that you can find a kingsnake on the ground, but what percentage of the population is on the ground at any one time? Even in the colder areas(NE)(N) muchless where the vast majority of kingsnakes occur, in hotter areas. Any guesses, as to what percentage?

I would think most people who field collect kingsnakes understand there are very small windows that you can find kingsnakes up or even under boards and tin. Most of the year they are deeper and hard to find. Even when you can find them up, its a rare individual and not representitive of the population. In the right conditions, such as after rains, floods, etc, you may find a burst of activity above the surface. But those events thankfully are not normal.

Normally they live and stay underground.

Which brings us back to the subject, How does photoperiod effect an animal that lives in the dark?

Lets dicuss the other inaccurate terms, nocturnal and diurnal. We seemed to have used these labels(even science) based on anthromorphic views, We use them as to how the snakes come into veiw in our world, not their world. For instance, kingsnakes move around in the day, even here in the hot desert, but only in the cooler moist enviornments of their burrows, cracks, crevices, etc. not above the ground. They indeed come out of those burrows at night at times. But does that make them nocturnal or does that make them selective? You see, at night, its cooler, and more humid, which are needed for such a thin skinned snake such as kingsnakes. So, I question, are kingsnakes diurnal or nocturnal, or are they only using the conditions provided at the time. Does anybody really know if snakes sleep in a human pattern or some other pattern. Like doozing off for short periods. What I find to be very horrifying is, many people think reptiles are always sleeping when not in view. That is, they only use burrows to sleep.

A good example is this is the lyresnake(trimorphdon)sp. They occur all around me, they have huge eyes and eliptical pupils. They are considered highly nocturnal or at least fit that term very well. But, I will bet, I can find more out in the day, then any one of you can find at night. Any bets?

What is so very funny, this debate(photoperiod) was done thirty some odd years ago. Let me offer a very funny example. One of the major supporters of photoperiod use and one of its founders was Erine Wagner. We use to dicuss this subject all the time and we totally disagreed. Well years when by, I moved away from keeping snakes and moved to monitors. One day Ernie was over and we were looking at my outdoor set ups for monitors. It was fall or winter and at that time, I use heat lamps. Well it was night and the lamps were on. Ernie looks puzzled and said, What about photoperiod?????????? I pointed to the east and said, the sun will come up over there, then I pointed up and then to the west and said, it will go up there, then set over there. Ernie gave me another one of his patented looks. I explained, the monitors do not confuse a lite bulb with the sun. They know what each is and know how to use them. What this means to me is, we are very very egotistical if we think animals confuse a litebulb with the sun. Don't you think so? FR

In the last sentence of this paragraph, Kingsnakes are fossorial or subterrainian. That is, the vast majority of their life is underground or inside something. This means they do all life events inside not outside. Yes, they venture outside(above the ground) but kinda like we do when we go swimming in the ocean. I wonder if fish think we are aquatic? Do you actually get this meaning? We use the ocean for certain needs and kingsnakes use the surface for certain needs, but we can both do with it.

The blue word is suppose to be, without, not with. Sorry and thanks. Oh, forgive the all the other misspellings and poor english etc. FR

Frank,
Say you have a few pairs of kings you want to breed next season. How/what kind of cage set-up would you use? By the way, do you remember how many times you lectured me on snakes being found on roads at night while we were cruising S2, the narrows, and S3?????
Yup, they're still crossing to get to the other side!
Pat

Heck no, I don't remember nothing, other then snakes are a bit like chickens, they cross the road to get to the other side.

I have to ask, Was I with you and some others when we went to Borrego. We found some kings and rosys. And we slept in the desert. The next mourning on the way back, just past oak grove or shady grove, whatever that place is. We saw a dor and went back to look at it, Then we got in the car and I saw something very odd. I got out to have a better look and I could not believe my eyes, it was a giant rosy, I believe it was nearly four feet long and really fat. Do you remember that? We were in a scout. Cheers FR

Oh man, you would remember that trip!!! We only stopped because we got in an argument over what species the DOR was and, of course, you were right!!! I said it looked like a racer and you said it was a patchnose!!!! Then as you were getting in one side of the Scout you got dead still as you stared at the longest Coastal Rosy I have ever seen!!! We were on that road that goes to Hemet so we were in chapperal coastal type habitat. We had caught a Borrego Rosy the night before as well as a gorgeous striped king. You and I were into Lyresnakes at the time and that's the trip I got the gravid female that layed eggs I hatched. I remember that trip because it was my first out road cruising. And in several ways my most embarassing. Boy, was I green. I don't know what Don is doing now as we have not seen each other since '72 or '73. Do you remember offering to stick his rifle in an uncomfortable spot after he sent several shots over our heads in that canyon? Yup, those were the days!!! You still have those slides from the Firestone canyon trip where we counted the Red Diamond Rattlers that had denned??? I don't rape and pillage anymore choosing instead to just cruise and look. Where I have served in Texas it has been great except now I'm in Austin so I have to travel a bit. Of course my congregations thinks I'm crazy!!! O well!!!

Pat

Hi PastorPat, About how I am keeping snakes, or how I intend to keep snakes. I am not prepared for them, they were givin to me and they beat me and tortured me until I promised I would make them rich thru breeding colubrids.hahahahahahahahaha

Remember I live in the desert and we are a bit, RETARDED. You know, what they say in Oz. Its the bloody sun mate. Your Brain on the barby. Two days ago, it was 112F and raining, and yesterday 107F and raining(more of a steam really) And more of the same today. So we may or may not think clearly or at all.

Anyway, I invented those stinking drawer cages many years ago. And saw a benefit. It was thru them I realized and somehow caused others to use sweater boxes. You see, in reality, they did not need the upper part of our cages, you know, the cage part. That part was for our enjoyment. Actually, it was viewing an empty cage. That is unless you opened the door and offered food or a new individual to the cage. then stuff happened. Other then that, they used those cages like they would in nature, they were down 99% of the time. That is unless you hedged your bet and made it awful in one part or another, then of course they would use the other more suitable part.

I do not think I am going to offer experimental cages to kingsnakes, but I am doing and going to do that with some other weirdo species, at this time, I just started working with vine snakes. I have collected a juvinile sexual pair and they are giving me fits. But its the fits that are fun. FR

Good stuff Frank. The example with us using the ocean is very understood. I had promised myself I was going to keep the expansion of my collection at a snails pace for a long while so I could concentrate on what I feel to be more getting some more suitable caging and after our discussions it is really something I want too accomplish.
I understand commercial breeders with mass quantities of snakes are capable of keeping them healthy and productive in small containers[at least they're small to me]. However I feel the hobby itself has been influenced into thinking that large cages are uneccesary and I hate this. For hatchlings and sub adults I see no harm and even some benefits. But for adults.....a large cage with some variation is my preference. Ever since I saw some of Bob Applegates cages with the drawers which give keepers access to the second level of the cage I have wanted something similar. I am toying with some ideas to mess with in my Boaphile cages while my snakes are brumating this winter. Some sort of large removeable insert to give my cages twice the floorspace...
I have to look for a recent post I put on the Pit forum. Someone suggested doing some sort of research on Pits in general and was looking for an idea. I suggested something what I considered to be sort of like an ant farm for snakes. A Huge cage with immitation gopher burrows both long and deep but fronted with glass so you could see where the snake preferred to spend it's time and what it did while below the surface. I was especially interested to see if the snakes preffered to pin and squash as opposed to contrict while underground. I hope he does it and posts pics and info. I would love to try myself but room is a big issue for me for now.
It is almost funny how myself and I am sure many others think, "why did I not think of that?" when I read your posts. I mean keepers seemingly contradict themselves left n right[myself included] looking for ways to improve and simplify our husbandry. I am even downright afraid to try some of things discussed recently. Simply because I have had success doing things the way I have for the past few years. Slowly but surely I will try new things though. I do not expect to have any of my snakes in a Vivarium of sorts with live plants and whatnot. But multi level caging with huge temperature gradients and even different levels of moisture are things I would like to mess with. I have plenty of great snakes and interesting projects. Now I want to house them in ways to keep them thriving.
In closing I will mention I had a Brooksi yearling who was a ravenous feeder and very active snake spill his water dish one too many times and he became dehydrated. Of course the simple solution to aid him was to put him in his water dish and let him drink and soak. He became his fiesty self again overnight but I added a shoe box full of very damp moss too his cage. He loves that box and sits in it often. None of my other 14 Brooksi seem too interested in a damp hide....and many of my friends never use on either. However thier cages are not large enough to move a damp hide around too the degree of it becoming too dramatically different from one place to the next, but maybe when they are upgraded to the new cages they will want a nice soak in the damp box once in a while? That particular snake almost never soaks in his water bowl....but loves that damp hide. I would like my snakes to have access to the few simple "pleasures" snakes experience when needed in the wild. You can not achieve that efficiently in a 27 quart rubbermaid, at least that is my opinion. My thoughts are not at all meant to offend anyone. People keep their snakes in many different ways and to each his own. I just get more out of keeping them in large cages and hope to see them thrive as I attempt to mimic the way they live in nature....and I have a lot of work to do before I get there myself. Tom Stevens

Hey Tom,
I'm at the Church so I don't have my home computer address list but there is a Doctor here in Austin that I bought three Bulls from eight years ago. I picked them up at his house and he had some two level cages. You might contact him and see if he still has them if you need some more ideas. His name is Brad Lic--- I can't even spell his last name. He raises some of the finest looking corns I've ever seen. He has advertised in the last month or so in the classifieds under corns. I have grown to appreciate your tenacity in getting things done and in a quality way. I look forward to seeing the final result. Any initial thoughts on substrates???? That whole burrowing thing intrigues me.

Pat

I know who you mean, Brad Lichtenhann. We emailed each other a few times this year, seems like a nice guy and I have seen pics of his stock and man o man they are sweet. As far as my caging plans I am in limbo now due to lack of funds and being busy with my daughter. I have been going through a routine[with adult breeders] where in spring I start them on newspaper. It is a hassle to clean as my snakes eat so much the poop is eternal. However during breeding season I like to monitor things by looking for "goo" on the cage floors. This year I have been looking at it when I can under the microscope and making sure males have the squigglies swimmin around. But soon [thank the snake gods] breeding season will be over and all adults will be on aspen or care fresh making my job a lot easier. I think my Honduran is laying eggs right now and if so she and the eggs are completely buried. I just see some white through the side of the lay box.....she is Anery so I am not sure but if she is laying while buried this is the second time this happened this year....and it has never happened before??? I have been a good boy, and passed up MANY good deals attempting to achieve my caging goals first. Timing is everything, and money is almost everything....so I am being as patient as I can for now. I like glass cages for my large Pits and they seem to like them too but theyre so heavy and take up so much room. Not too mention things are growing so fast...it would be silly for me to keep buying snakes when so many up n comers will be ready in 06, and even more in 07. I have a good plan but it will cost me at least 3 grand, and now I have about 50 bucks LOL I look forward to seeing you at the Austin show but feel free to drop by any time. Tom Stevens

Interesting discussion and though I seldom post on here I look at this board frequently. I think you add a very interesting perspective on how people view their snakes and often times may make incorrect assumptions. I like how you think beyond the standard mind set.

That being said I'm not so sure I agree with your observations if you are refering to all getula across their vast range. With lower humidity levels in the west I can see why kings in that region may have to rely upon an often subterranian existence to avoid desication. I would expect their surface activity to be limited to those rare occasions when suface conditions are condusive to their well being and when their is a clear life function to be achieved. For example searching for a mate, food, etc.. In much of the eastern U.S. this is simply not the case. I can reliably find king snakes on the surface where I live in KY from March until November. My observations are these snakes are decidedly diurnal with most surface activity taking place from mid morning until mid afternoon. I have often times seen kings on the surface not just foraging but also basking during the cooler times of year. I can also find kings hidden under boards and roofing tin all through the active season. Not in burrows many feet down but essentially on the surface thermo-regulating. Why is this? The relative humidity is much higher here than in the desert southwest and there is no reason for these snakes to spend their lives in the ground or to be active only at night. Temperature is a consideration and like any snake once they meet their tolerence level they will seek out a cooler area. This is often still on the surface but perhaps out of the direct rays of the sun. I am not the casual field herper. I'm the sort of guy that gets out a couple of days each week and I have been doing this for years. These observations are not based on a few random sightings but rather on years of field experience. Though not targeting kings while out I have seen 60 in the field to this point this year just to give you an idea.

Once again, I find your thought to be very interesting and with much merit. In this case though I believe you may have made to broad of a generalization.

Phil Peak

I have lived from tenn. to Fla, to washington state, La. and calif and ariz. And I've hunted snakes all over the world, Its been the same. In cooler climates, there is without question a higher percentage above the ground, but that percentage is not high.

With that said. Were they out or under sign boards or wood. Then consider what percentage of the population it represents.

What you may not understand is, how many are there. You find one up, there are many many down. Consider, a colony consists of hatchlings to adults and everything in between.

Now, what do you see?

Please consider this, each specie of snakes structure tells you a little bit of what is does, snakes like watersnakes, gardersnakes have thick scales. That tells you they spend some time exposed to open air. Rattlesnakes have thick scales, they do the same. Kingsnakes have thin small scales, this tells you they are not designed to spend much time in open air. Species like Pits, are somewhere in the middle. Thanks for the conversation, Cheers FR

Yes, I can agree that in cooler temps many snakes are more apt to be near the surface, but summer in KY is anything but cool yet we still manage to consistently find kings every week even in the hottest weather. The reason for this is the high humidity levels allows them to obtain the moisture through the air that otherwise would only be available in a subsurface retreat in more arid regions. Kings snakes do indeed frequent rodent burrows and other areas below surface but this is probably due to other factors other than environmental needs. To escape predation for example. When not basking, foraging, seeking a mate etc..they will try to make themselves less obvious to potential predators. This can be in a rodent burrow or it can be under a board or even in thick foliage.

Another example I could bring up would be the racer. This is another smooth scaled snake with relatively thin skin. Most snake hunters would agree that in most places in the southeastern U.S. the racer is probably the most common terrestrial snake seen while in the field. The fact that they are so visible is due to them being both a habitat generalist and also a snake that is clearly able to thrive on the surface despite having smooth scales and fairly thin skin. I will admit that the kings skin may be more permeable to some degree than the racer but not nearly as much as the examples you gave yet they spend a great deal of time on the surface and thrive.

I do enjoy these types of discussions! - Phil

F.R., what is your take on the racers and coachwips in that regard? Just curious...good point, Phil.
Todd

Hey, Phil, post more and include more nigras and calligasters...this ain't just the getula only forum! Glad to hear from the field herpers!
Todd

Thanks Todd. I'll make a post at the top of the page with some news. Phil