Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi, I was walking to my door a couple of weeks ago and lying on my bottom step is the cutest boxie. I thought twice about picking him up but I did anyway. He didn't jump into his shell or try to run. He just looked at me. I sat him back down and he just looked at me for like 5 minutes. So what could I do, I took him inside and gave him some food. The next day I began making him a home. He is comfortable in the 40 gallon tank for now. I take him for a walk every day he likes the yard. He is Very fast for a turtle. His home is 80% finished and I will post pictures as soon as he is settled in. I hope I am doing the right thing. I don't know if I found him or if he found me, I like to think he found me.

Sudgestions welcome thanks BoxieBro

Is it adult box turtle? Is it a type of bow turtle that's native to your area?
If the answer to either question is 'yes', then I would say take it back outside and put it back where you found it. A 40 g tank is WAY too small for an adult box turtle (actually, too small for anything except a brand new hatchling), and if they're native to your area, it probably lives in your immediate neighborhood. If its a female, she may be looking for a nesting site, and you may soon find yourself with a serious problem on your hands if you can't provide what she needs.
They can be challenging to care for in captivity, and if you're not prepared to really take proper care, vet bills can be more expensive for exotics than for dogs or cats.
When you asked yourself what you could do, an alternate answer would have been to leave it alone, and to see if it makes a return trip next year.
If you are really set on having a pet box turtle, contact your local herp society to see if there's a reptile rescue in your area, or contact Turtle Homes, and adopt one that has been displaced/long time captive, injury survivor. That would be doing the right thing if you're willing to make a commitment.

Regards,
Stephanie

I am sorry if I had mislead you into thinking Terri "my terripin" would remain in the tank permanently. His out door habitat is almost complete and with the help of this site and many others I think it has the makings of a first class turtle resort. I will post some pics in the near future. His home is 14 feet by 5 feet . With an in ground concrete pool ( shallow with fresh water) a mulch pile garden (jungle) and rock cavern. I am not taking the care of this animal in jest. The proper enviornment is essential for the health and well being of any animal. Thank you for your advice and hope to see more.

You didn't answer the other question: is he native to your area? Removing a healthy adult from the wild is not necessarily doing the rest of the local population any good. 70 sq.ft. isn't close to the acreage it was accustomed to, either.
What state are you in? It may not even be legal for you to keep it. Box turtles are protected to varying degrees in many states for good reason: dwindling populations as a result of fragrmented habitat, road kill and pet collection being the top three in some areas.
You've already made up your mind to keep it though, apparently.
Stephanie

I'm going to have to agree 100% with Steph. The only thing I will add is that you might ascertain from your neighbors or consult the newspapers as to whether this turtle is a lost pet. Whether it is injured and in need of assistance would be another concern. Barring either of these conditions, this turtle does not require your assistance.

Mick
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"When tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign foe."

James Madison

I would just like to add; You did pose the subject to the forum, for feedback on what you were doing being the "right thing". I'm not exactly sure if you were ticked at Steph's response, but you did appear dismissive of her answer, and, her experience.

I would like to offer; that when posing a question, if you receive an answer which does not suit you...then maybe one should not solicit the opinion by asking the question to begin with.

If one is simply searching for an "echo" to his/her feelings...then one might be better suited to find a canyon instead.

Mick
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"When tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign foe."

James Madison

Mick, I have a very different perception of "BoxieBro's" response. I did not feel it was at all dismissive, in fact, he strikes me as someone trying to "do the right thing". Just because he does not follow the advice given, doesn't make him dismissive. You stated, "when posing a question, if you receive an answer which does not suit you...then maybe you should not solicit the opinion by asking the question to begin with". I think that is ridiculous advice. What does that mean...we only ask questions when we know the answer is something we want to hear? Or only ask questions about things in which we are certain we'll do whatever the "expert" advises? It would seem pretty unintelligent to always follow the advice from "experts" without thinking about it yourself and then making your own decision. Believe it or not, many experienced herpetoculturists differ widely on issues such as those raised by "BoxieBro" above. So...I strongly feel BoxieBro should continue to ask whatever question he feels is important, carefully weigh the answers he gets, then make his decision. And these forums are a great place to get opinions from very experienced herpetoculturists.

There are plenty of people who post here (and no doubt elsewhere), looking for an automatic pat on the back, and reassurance for what they're doing. It's human nature.
I suspect that that was what BoxieBro was expecting when he originally posted, but didn't get from me. I reserve praise for the deserving: call me old fashioned.

By avoiding answering the other question I'd originally asked, and describing in some detail the pen he was building, I too had concluded that BoxieBro had previously decided to keep the turtle and wasn't really interested in an outside opinion, but rather searching for more justification for keeping it.

Mick, in my opinion, while more acerbic than most can handle, is quite consistently accurate.

Regards
Stephanie

I liked your responses to BoxieBro. From your posts it is obvious you are knowledgable and I happen to agree with your opinion on what he should do with that turtle. I do think, however, it is dangerous to attribute motivation based on an e-mail. I saw nothing in his response that was mean or spiteful, in fact, I saw him reaching out. My particular take (which has a high likelihood of being wrong) is that he was more excited about describing his outdoor habitat, and wanted to share that with you. I found the tone of his requests very reasonable. I find it very upsetting when a person posts an e-mail asking for advice/opinions, then gets beat up because s/he doesn't do what the "experts" say or what is politically correct. Was he seeking only a pat on the back? Who knows? I am glad he is seeking opinions from people like you on this forum, it can only help. As far as Mick being "consistently accurate", I leave you with this;
"doubt is an uncomfortable state, certainty a ridiculous one".
ps. Glad you like my photo..."Sunny" is a magnificant animal!

"Advise of truth makes the foolish hostile."

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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

I think you may be trying to respond to two people with one response.
I don't think Boxiebro was being mean or spiteful, and never stated such an opinion, nor did I 'beat him up' with my response. I stated an opinion about what he may be doing by keeping the turtle as a pet, and asked a couple of questions, only one of which was aswered. I was making an effort not to ascribe a motive, but I did question the motive behind the original musing 'I hope I'm doing the right thing', if the party wondering this has already made up their mind, as is evidenced by the construction of pen, and the evasion ( not answering the other question).
Ignoring inconvenient questions is considered dismissive in some circles.
Pointing out why the turtle would be better off in its natural habitat is not being politically correct, just correct, if not downright consistently accurate.
Hopefull Boxiebro will step up and answer the questions that had been asked.
Regards
Stephanie

Boy, isn't this interesting. We don't even know what kind of turtle BoxieBoy has, whether or not it is native to his area, he is asking for help and gets this? What if BoxieBoy lives in the middle of a city, with miles of roads and concrete before anything approaching a wild area? By letting the turtle wander on it's merry way, you are essentially handing it a death sentence. If it was a pet (for at least a month), letting it go back into wild populations significantly risks those wild populations to domestic pathogens, which can be quite devastating to local wild populations. Many herpetologists strongly discourage releasing any reptile that has been in captivity. BoxieBoy, I think your first priority right now is to find out what kind of turtle you have, and if it is native to your area. Even if it is native, if it has very long claws or an overgrown beak, then it likely was someone's pet (improperly cared for), and your keeping it would very likely highly increase it's chance for survival and/or decrease the likelihood of spreading devastating pathogens to wild populations. I think your dedication of 70 square feet of your backyard is more than most people give their box turtle, and would be adequate for one turtle given that it has a range of sun/shade/water microhabitats (although more is always better). The exact "home range" of box turtles has never been accurately pinned down...some seem to wander and some don't (see the excellent book by Dodd. North American Box turtles).
I will end by saying that some of us out here like the fact that you are seeking information and advice on how to care for your turtle...the others, well, they can yell into their own canyons.

Terrapene, I have to say I am more on your end of the continuum. I think it's important to give people all the info. in a polite and helpful way.

And it is just as important to not judge someone's decision, or ascribe motivation to people.

Some people around here (not necessarily the people in this thread) really come down hard on others who don't agree w/ them or who make a decision different than what they want.

IMHO it takes a lot of courage to risk asking a question around here! lol
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0.1.0 snapping turtle
0.1.0 painted turtle
0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
0.1.0 Australian shepard
0.0.12 chickens
3.2.0 children
1.0.0 husband

Thats why dont ask a question. I think if he lives in a city then he should not let him go. Unless he wants to. If i found one around my place i would release it then most likely find it smashed into the road. Its natures way. lol. Im just joking all. really i think people on this site is helpful in many ways but its true they are all pretty mean when stating a opinion. also i think we would need more info before saying put the turtle back.

I had asked the very same question in my first post: 'is the turtle native to the area?', and never got a response to that question. 'Therein lies the rub.' as they say.
I am NOT picking a fight, beating anyone up, or otherwise harrassing or attacking anyone. I asked a very pertinent question at he outset which went unanswered: had the question been answered, we could have all had the opportunity to give more informed answers, and offered up more pearls of wisdom, instead of engaging in this somewhat unproductive (at this point) exchange.
Stephanie

Its true that we cant tell him if hes doing the right thing or wrong thing Because we dont know the info. we need to know. We need answers. Also this is a stupid fight why are we even fighting about this.

Hopefully, Boxiebro will fill in some of the details for us. If you all were to re-read my original posts (subtracting the perceived attitude), you'd hopefully realize that this was what I was attempting to elicit from him in the first place.
Thanks
Stephanie

I also agree with you. I only like to stand in the wings and drop by only occasionally now - Sorry, but I just don't like the tone & the bickering on this board. (not that anyone cares if I do or don't)

np
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0.1.0 snapping turtle
0.1.0 painted turtle
0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
0.1.0 Australian shepard
0.0.12 chickens
3.2.0 children
1.0.0 husband

I Care....The overall tone and General Negative replies are not conducive to getting the best from this board or HELPING BOX TURTLES.

If the intent is to do what is best for the turtles than; wouldn’t it be best to have positive tones as it’s been proven individuals will learn best from positive tones and accept change if necessary. Negative tones turn people off, and are poor tools for communicating and teaching. People are resistant to accept information given in a berating, condescending, or abrasive manner. Twenty posts for this last topic?

Feelings of I’ll say what I want, and how I want because I’m right; are inefficient and immature. . Respect each other’s opinion; especially when we disagree with it. TREAT HUMANS well; and BOXIES will be treated well. Disagreement is OK.

Incidentally.... On the subject of keeping or releasing a wild caught boxie after it’s been in captivity for over a month .....I have to say it should Not Be Released. I too agree with Kenneth Dodd, a world renowned expert and author who states that releasing captive boxies introduce many pathogens into their population and can cause an deadly epidemic.

Ric

np
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0.1.0 snapping turtle
0.1.0 painted turtle
0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
0.1.0 Australian shepard
0.0.12 chickens
3.2.0 children
1.0.0 husband

Ric, what are your thoughts on the release of babies? Mine are a year old and I wonder if it would be safe to release them if I could find a suitable location. They are very much captive raised, healthy, and accostomed to being fed and handled by myself. Would they fend for themselves now and not pose a risk to the wild population.

Sketch, I will reply to this even though I am NOT Ric. Personally, I do NOT favor the release of captive "1 year old" hatchlings. I take many things into consideration.
I have however, released about 3 dozen hatchlings over many years. They were all 1(one) day old hatchlings that were never fed by anyone & were NEVER mixed or met any turtles from my colony. I also don't think one should release a "handled hatchling". Even though I am sure they can survive, I like the idea of a shy hatchling. The hatchlings are also the offspring from injured turtles that were taken from that area many years ago where I released them into. I do NOT release hatchlings in which the parents were taken hundreds of miles away. I feel that I am "replenishing" the area from a bloodline that was already there. Don't know if any of the hatchlings made it. But If six out of 100 live, I made up what was taken from the area. That's my goal for now.
I guess a few of you guys do care if I hang around or not. I rather just mind my own business & walk away. If one wants to hear me out, fine. If not, I'll leave. I'm pretty simple. But I find it just too hard to bicker back & forth - Don't like to bicker.

I would like to see you stay: its always good to have long-time keepers sharing their experiences and their points of view.
Stephanie

I'd like to see you stay. Opinions are just that, everyone has one. I've said before that I like to read other people's opinions. I like the feedback in the event that someone has a thought that hasn't yet occurred to me..but in the end I'm just like every body else, I'm going to do what I think is best whether others agree with me or not.
I'm now guilty of keeping two turtles that maybe could've stayed in the wild, something I never thought I'd do. But then dog mouths, cars whizzing by on a 4 lane highway at 70mph in front of a housing development aren't the wild any longer.
Then when one of them moves in and refuses to leave, it's hard to put that one out if she doesn't want to go. lol
My point is that circumstances and our reasons for keeping them differ for each of us. What is best for that turtle? Sometimes it's hard to know so we do what we think is best right or wrong, which is all we can do.
The bottom line is that everyone here cares about the turtles and that's the reason why we're all here.
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PHRatz

"Even though I am sure they can survive, I like the idea of a shy hatchling."

I've also wondered about this (shy vs. bold) in hatchlingsnd I'd like to pint out that there's the flip side of this coin, too.

Bolder wild hatchlings may be more likely to go after food, which would enable them to grow faster, which in turn would enable them to reach a size at which they are better able to withstand an attack by a predator.

Amongst the hatchlings that I 'headstart', the bolder ones are up to twice the size of their more shy clutch-mates after just a few months. The bold ones start eating much sooner after hatching, and are more aggressive about pursuing their prey. Whether this behavior would prove to be an advantage or not in the wild is difficult to say.

So it may be impossible to conclude that shy would result in a higher survival rate: it may just be a question of which one has the luck of the draw.

I'd like to add that I don't think its a good idea for hatchlings (which one intends to release) to have very much human contact, for a variety of different reasons.

Stephanie

I hit that 'post message' button prematurely...
Another possible advantage for a bold hatchling (bold about pursuing food) is that a faster growing turtle would reach reproductive size earlier, and potentially add to the population more quickly.
Greater rewards tend to come with greater risks.
It's certainly food for thought, and I am most definitely not knocking your approach.
Stephanie

The word "shy" has a different meaning in my post. "Shy" means (to me) a personality a hatchlings has from "lack of human contact". They avoid contact with anything large that moves. If you notice my previous posts - they are released when one day old as to avoid being "humanized" and were NEVER fed by me. I agree with you that runts are OVERLY shy but that's because they are in an artificial environment. Can't guarantee they would act that way in the wild when you are not around. Take that runt that hides all the time into the yard by itself in which it can't see you but thinks it's alone. I think you will be surprised at how fast he is at catching food when no one is watching. Try it! I was fascinated.

Until someone does a comprehensive study of box turtles, from hatching to adulthood, we will not know whether human contact or lack thereof dramatically impacts their ability to fend for themselves over the long term. We won't know exactly what baby turtles eat, either, even though it has long been presumed that they are more carnivorous than adults. Simply by being in close enough proximity to observe may impact behavior and render results useless.
Preliminary findings from reintroduction studies do not indicate any sort of increased vulnerability of hatchlings that have had some human contact: in fact, results (ie:survival rates) with headstarted youngsters are more promising than with non-headstarted youngsters, simply because their increased size provides them with a better defense mechanism.
I think you overlooked the point which I was trying to make, or misread my post, and it's 'what if' perspective.
Stephanie

Re: The Release of Hatchling Box Turtles Back into Wild Habitat.

Their are many opinions on this and studies are still being conducted.

From their earliest age they seem to exhibit an ability to distinguish movement and noise and have used that to their greatest advantage. Even from thirty feet away, wild hatchlings will move astonishingly fast into cover when humans, dogs or raccoons appear or if they hear or even feel the vibrations through their substrate. Be it instinct or intelligence, or a combination of the two; this is normal behavior for very young native box turtles. They also seem to be able to remember locations, however this ability develops as they mature. They can identify other members of their family or other boxies in their home range by smell which reduces aggression. All of these natural wild behaviors, and others, help a wild boxie survive and avoid a potentially lethal situation. These natural behaviors which help a hatchling survive in the wild would be compromised or lost.

A number of authors have noted that in captivity, box turtles quickly recognize people and associate them with food. It seems unlikely that a boxie might recognize a specific individual; but more likely they associated the vision of a bipedal creature with food..especially at an extremely young age. ( OLDER BOXIES may develop more specific attractions to an individual) However this association of humans with feeding(ASSOCIATIVE MEMORY) persists from one year to the next. In captivity these are positive behaviors; however in the wild it can be disastrous. Walking towards a group of bipedals..the hatchling may be accidentally crushed, picked up for a pet or worse.

I have addressed in an earlier post just a few above this one about the “Pathogens” that can be picked up in a home situation. Some young boxies may not exhibit any external signs of illness; but often are carriers and when introduced into the general wild population...tragic results follow.

It is of my opinion when wild boxies are taken captive or even more importantly born captive; they should be considered non releasable animals.

However I understand your desire to help the struggling Native Box Turtle situation. ...And I commend you for your positive intent. May I suggest that rather than release hatchlings into the wild population that you consider a controlled habitat...such as a Zoo, rehab reserves such as in Patuxent Wildlife Research Center.

Ric

Everything that was mentioned, I agree.

a) I only release hatchlings that are from adults taken from that area.

b) ALL hatchlings are 1 (one) day old. When the clutch is completely out of the shell, They put into a cooler & are released. They are NEVER fed.

c) They are NEVER in contact with any turtle except for the same clutch. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

d) I do not treat these clutches as pets. The simple reason is because they are NOT.

e) All adults from the same area are kept within the same enclosure(s) outside. The only ones mixed together are those where I have no idea from where they are from. I also don't handle the adults much either. I try to keep everything as natural for them as possible.

That's why I also agree, any hatchling fed by anyone for a period of time should NOT be released. "SHY" is good in this case.

Just confirming that I too agree with all in your post !

In replying to "sketch" I was somewhat late (computer glitch) and my post was placed just below your post.
I was answering a question that he posed. He was referring to releasing hatchlings over a year old, and well accustomed to humans.

I'm hoping my reply wasn't misdirected. If so it was unintentional.

However I was glad that you did post as it will educate others as to the differences in releasing boxies.

I personally appreciate all the effort you do to ensure the health and well being of boxies.
Ric

I figured your reply wasn't directed to the way I was doing things. I was, however, wasn't 100% sure. I was thinking maybe I missed something or I was doing something wrong. If so, I would like to know so that I could correct the problem. I am always open to "constructive criticism". I don't believe I read the info you were referring to. I just figured that this was the proper way to do it from all the tidbits of info here & there PLUS all the years of raising boxies & from observing the hatchlings grow and their behavior. I always believed the shy ones would survive better. Just thinking about it logically - it would make sense. You definitely do not want a yearling who was hand fed & handled often to be released. It may go up any large animal looking for food & become food itself. When boxies come in contact with humans often or mixed with others, I can see how it can pick up pathogens.
I have raised quite a number of hatchlings & could NOT see myself releasing them. They are just too "friendly".
I may NOT have written any books, but after all these years of observing & studying boxies I know a little something. I think it is safe to say that I have been probably more sucessful in the breeding, raising & caring of boxies than some of the authors who have written books. I just wish I had the ability to do so one day. (Probably the word dumb fits me)

The BEST authors are always the ones most critical of themselves.
Ric

Ric, a question: can you tell me your source for this statement?

"They can identify other members of their family or other boxies in their home range by smell which reduces aggression."

I have yet to come across a statement to that effect in the course of reading about box turtles.

Regards,
Stephanie

Nice looking turtle, by the way.
Stephanie

I think that if its native to your place then you should release him/her. If its not i think its not wise to. Also if it is sick injured heal it and take it to the vet. I think people should stop buying boxies from petstores and selling boxies unless CB. There are plenty of breeders out there selling there boxies and there are even more boxies for adoption. If you keep this box turtle you it would most likely die in a year or sooner from stress. He deserves a full life and a chance to be free if he been living in the wild he should stay in the wild.

"there are even more boxies for adoption"

Where exactly are all these boxies? Most of the "adoption" places I applied to didn't even bother to knowledge receiving my application. The one that did, didn't have any boxies.
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0.1.0 snapping turtle
0.1.0 painted turtle
0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
0.1.0 Australian shepard
0.0.12 chickens
3.2.0 children
1.0.0 husband

When did you apply was it in march if it was thats why. Box turtles go into adoption into these summer months because thats when people are finding them and buying them and then decide they dont want them. There are alot of places and rescue places that have boxies for adoption. I adopted 4 in the last 2 months. There are websites and local rescue centers tring to find homes for boxies/torts.

I applied in Nov. Dec. and Jan. What places have them?
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0.1.0 snapping turtle
0.1.0 painted turtle
0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
0.1.0 Australian shepard
0.0.12 chickens
3.2.0 children
1.0.0 husband

That is one reason no one have them. Spring and summer are the months they get flooded with them.

Well, spring has come and gone, it's still summer, and none of them have even knowledged my application!

I have 5 kids who were easier to adopt! lol
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0.1.0 snapping turtle
0.1.0 painted turtle
0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
0.1.0 Australian shepard
0.0.12 chickens
3.2.0 children
1.0.0 husband

I would say try emailing them first or call them. Then talk to them then they will know your there. THats what i did.

One place I drove 2.5 hours to talk to them. Then I filled out an application. Then I emailed them. They never even knowledged the effort!
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0.1.0 snapping turtle
0.1.0 painted turtle
0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
0.1.0 Australian shepard
0.0.12 chickens
3.2.0 children
1.0.0 husband

Box turtles tend to be available seasonally, usually during the warmer months. You may have inadvertantly been looking for one at the 'wrong' time of year.
Keep trying.
Stephanie