Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was bothered (and still is) when I saw numerous ads of honduran milksnakes for sale in the classified ads section that are "wild caught". Just go to that section and for the last week, there were several ads from different breeders who are selling these wild caught ones. Several points I want to bring up here in the forum as I strongly feel against capturing wild animals and plucking them out of their native habitat where they were born in the first place:

POINTS:

1) I honestly cannot see why capturing these snakes from the wild has any benefits anymore, given that there are a lot of captive breds that are available for the public.

2) These "wild caught" honduran milksnakes must have been imported from Honduran and South America(not even sure if it's legal to capture these animals from their native habitat and export them to us). I saw some documentary from PBS nature how some animals like the Amazon parrots and some other types of parrots that were smuggled illegally into the US via crate trains. The officials intercepted and discovered the crate and 90% of them were either dead or close to death because of the heat. You cannot help but wonder if there are some wild caught honduran milksnakes that have been smuggled here and ended up dead.

3) But the biggest concern of mine is the depletion of these wonderful wild types honduran milksnakes from the wild and disturbing the natural balance of the ecosystems back there. Breeding honduran milksnakes is soooooo easy and I do not understand why people are still catering to the notion of selling or buying wild caught types.

I would very much welcome any inputs, including those from the other camp that cater to wild bringing in wild types by capturing them from the wild.

Thanks,
-----
RAY

1) I honestly cannot see why capturing these snakes from the wild has any benefits anymore, given that there are a lot of captive breds that are available for the public.

It is a simple cycle.
- The people in Central America where they are coming from catch them and sell them because someone is willing to pay them to do it.
- The people paying them are willing to do it because there are clients to buy these snakes here in the US and in Europe.

I've always believed the idea of captive breeding to reduce wild collecting pressure will only work when breeders are willing to sell the CB animals at the same prices as the WC animals (or below). Otherwise we are just encouraging and maintaining the commercial collection.
-----
Chris Harrison

Chris,

I understand the supply and demand economics of any commodity and it is true what you said about as long as there are people willing to pay for wild caught, then there will be a market for wild caught and these animals will be plucked out of the habitat that they have known since birth.

But what I do not agree with you is when you said : "We still rely on the rather self-serving idea that a captive born snake is somehow worth more money than a WC snake. Therefore, it remains cost effective to remove them from the wild. In fact, sometimes when breeders put a high price on rare captive born offspring..." Here, you need to compare apples and apples here. These wild caught ones are visually tricolor or tangerines with tons of tippings (therefore, not hypos, not albinos, not ghosts and not snows). They sell these wild caught hondurans for a hundred dollars are more, sometimes as high as $175 for "normal" looking ones... hell, I sold my normal ones (not het for hypo or anything) last year for fifty bucks each. A lot of the breeders I know ( here in our forum ) even sold their double hets for less than a hundred bucks. Of course, the captive born if you are sure of their genetics would be worth more, but if you are not sure of what the genetics is for a normal looking one and you have a choice of getting from a wild caught as opposed to a captive bred, why would you not get a captive bred for $50 or $75 each?

And what about the regard to the natural habitat? A lot of breeders share the idea that if we foster captive breeding, then the ones in the wild would be left alone... and that really should be the case... don't you think?
-----
RAY

There are so many morphs I can't see the purpose for importing anymore unless they find a new phase to work with. There's also a strong possibility that the Honduran Gov't, along with others, will wipe out all their native wildlife to clear land for the cattle industry. Burger King and Big Macs may be all that remain.

Mike

Ray,
I am in full agreement with your views. I am new to the milksnake world and I don't see why wild caught snakes are being sold today. With all of the varieties we have to choose from in the captive-bred market (Hets, Double Hets, Snows, Albinos, and Anerys) I dont think going back to the wild to get snakes that are pure as far as genes are concerned is nessasary. If we wanted a pure species of snake then we should not have been breeding them with other snakes to genetically alter them in the first place. Now not to say that some of these morphs on the market are not beautiful, but we should of held back some of the pure snakes and captive-bred them for the pure genes. The ecosystem in South America will either eventually fail or will very slowly adapt to the removal of more and more of the species that are not genetically altered. Now on the other hand IF a new species is found, I can see removing a select few to be brought back for captive-breeding purposes.
I am all for captive breeding snakes for morphs but lets try to keep breeding the snakes that are not genetically modified together too. So that when the demand for the unaltered snakes are there we have them captive-bred ready to go to the consumer instead of resorting back to catching them in the wild.

milksnake73
-----
1.0 '04 Andean Milksnake (Malichi)
0.1 '04 Andean Milksnake (Satain)

>>t lets try to keep breeding the snakes that are not genetically modified together too. So that when the demand for the unaltered snakes are there we have them captive-bred ready to go to the consumer instead of resorting back to catching them in the wild.

every time someone hybridizes using a honduran another vast pool of future youngsters is eliminated from ever serving the admirable purpose you describe.
terry

Ray, it is easy to see where you're coming from but you have to remember there's a few other things to consider. Dare I make a comparison to the Ball Python....yes I shall. Imported by the zillions, many morph fanatics have thier eye out for a hint of something unique. I myself look at these WC Hondo ads because if you have a sharp eye, you can notice things that seem unusal. From variation in color, banding, pattern etc. Who is to say one of these WCs may have a gene to create something new and impressive? You just never know. Now compare this to the Corn snake. One of the hardest Corns to come by is a wild type normal het for nothing. Try n find some het for nothing Ruthveni. These things are not easy to come by and Hondurans could be heading in the same direction. Soon enough normals will be hard to come by, when is the last time you saw a young true Tangerine Dream? The Hypo became all the rage and now the Dream line is something you have to make an effort to locate. I have no idea about export laws from Honduras, or the populations of these snakes in the wild. I am against depleteing populations to the point where they're wiped out....that's for sure. However in the case of these Milks I am not too concerned yet. I am working on producing many of the known morphs but watch the ads for WCs in case something jumps out at me, I am sure many people do. Your heart is in the right place, and it is good to be aware of these things.....but these heavily tipped melanin coated Hondos may be the key too unlocking more things to work with. If there were tons of ads year round I would be pissed too....but I do not think it is that type of situation. If anyone has facts that say otherwise I will change my opinion in a heartbeat. Guys like us feel there has to be a line drawn somewhere as far as imports, when some authority says enough is enough. I myself have no idea how much we have to worry about concerning the Honduran Milk, but I have a feeling those ads will dwindle down to nothing soon. Tom Stevens

A while ago, I bought an adult female tangerine in excellent condition with different looks (eye color, banding: not more melanin, but many saddle-like, closer together, bands that do not complete to the bottom) that I had not realized was wild caught. I have seen WC females with interesting coloration, patterns, abberant triads, etc that would make interesting breeding projects, but I still feel that bringing in these snakes into the trade is siphoning from the wild. I can not say it is wrong or anything, due to my lack of knowledge in the ways(care/quality?) of catching, importing, and exporting these snakes (though it is a semi-secret operation). The trade is very broad, and I have seen new traits come up over time, even when I was less into hondurans. I think without the trade of WC specimens, the honduran trade still finds a way to expand. If anyone knows specifics on the importing/exporting and such of these hondurans, feel free to enlighten me.
-Sean

Hi Raiy,

Figured i'd post before reading the others' responses so as not to be influenced!

first of all, i assume you don't collect from the wild where you live. be sorta hypocritical if that were the case! but i realize tahere's a diff between keeping an animal or two for personal use, and commercial collecting.

I generally agree with your thoughts. one of the benefits of cpative breeding is supposed to be that it diminishes the demand for wild cuaght stock. hard to imagine how cheaply the wild caught hondos must come in at $-wise, if they're cheaper than the huge numbers of captive breds being produced.

one good thing that could come from an occasional import, though, is the unique individual that can spawn a whole new line...like the first anerythristic (wild caught, imported) hondo responsible for all the anerys--and don't forget snows--that trace back to the animal. and one good thing that could come AFTER that, is the SECOND wild-caught anery to be imported, to provide new blood to breed into all those anery and snow projects. It happened. This year.

peace
terry

HI Terry,

Yes, you are right that I do not keep any wild caught and will not ever consider getting wild caught. I always try to "champion" those animals in the wild... that they are supposed to be left by themselves in the wild. So many parks and national reserves have signs out there for the public to see and adhere to that, whatever you see here, you leave it here. Don't capture any wild animals and if you have to shoot one, shoot one with a camera. I always thought that the captive bred snakes are the ambassadors to their own kind so that we humans leave nature alone and not disturb its supposed balanced ecosystems.

Sure, one would ask that somehow, all these captive bred snakes started from wild caught ones. So, by logic, if I am breeding these captive bred ones, then I indirectly support capturing wild ones so that I can get to start my hobby. But going back to your idea of introducing genes to the gene pool of captive breeding, I see the good points.... but I also say that if you capture one, why not breed to some captive bred female hondurans, and then, after it successfully mated with the captive bred females, then release the wild caught male honduran back to the wild. For any caught females, I'd say do not even attempt to keep it for breeding and just let it go. It is a known fact with other species, even species other than snakes, that the way to deplete a species faster is to capture more females.

That is my position basically. If you must capture one to introduce a gene pool into your breeding project, capture a male and use it to mate with your other captive bred females....and then let the wild caught male go back to the wild where it belongs. Some of the ads that sell wild caught advertise it as a "novelty" of having the privilege of owning a wild caught honduran...which does not make any sense at all. If one starts capturing a wild honduran, and then another, and then another...soon before you know it, the honduran milksnake will be placed in the endagered list. It's not endangered yet but it will be if people start capturing them just for the sake of novelty. I mean, look at the annual roundup in Texas of rattlesnakes. The animal activists are now all over it every year because you see all these beheaded diamond backs and other rattesnakes caught in the wild so that they can market them as snakes skin, snake handbag or boots, or just plain novelty of having a rattler (tail) sold to the public as toys. And now the diamond back rattelsnakes are fast diminishing in the wild. Think of the negative impact on nature !

Sorry for rambling here, but I am just an advocate of nature conservation and I do my part here where I live by volunteering at the local zoo, donating to organizations, giving out excess normal looking hatchlings to kids who are truly interested in honduran milksnakes and snakes in general. And I thought that this forum would be a real good discussion on conservation.

Thanks,
-----
RAY

Ray, I don't condone the roundups, but there are way more atrox than you could imagine. They take their toll, but you just don't have access to the millions of acres of private land, and let me tell you, Texas is BIG. I see your point, agree with most of it, but from my backyard, it just ain't so for the atrox. It's a grisly and barbaric display for sure, but there will be diamondbacks for your great grandchildren to wonder at, barring total nuclear winter, of course! Well....maybe even then!
Todd Hughes