Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I will say, humans are a reallly reallllly a dumb lot. They think the whole world circles around them. And it dang well better. hey?

Nesting, we humans think its about hatching eggs. How silly are we, after all, in nature hatching eggs is not very important. Is it?

Its not, really its not. No sir. Whats important is maintaining the population. Not doing so, is extinction.

Their need is to make babies, not eggs. Babies(neonates) that will grow into reproductive adults. (to recruit, recruitment, etc)

To nest(a nest=a place to hatch and raise offspring) is a programed behavioral pattern. They behaviorally place the eggs in places that, not only hatch the eggs, but also, have the highest chances of allow the babies to survive. In order to recruit, the offspring must survive.

With this in mind, all the live bearers I have worked with, also nest to an extent. That is, they put their babies in particular places that allow them to survive. These places are a lot like the places egg layers place their eggs.

What I am hoping to get at is, nesting is not a convience, we all know that you can put them in rubber maids or simply take the waterbowl out and get some eggs and surely some will hatch. But instead its a driving behavioral force, that make these snakes pick certain types of nests? Like many birds(people understand birds) they risk life and limb(whoops no limbs, see what happened) to get their eggs to a particular place. Why?

Just more food for thought and another stinking window to open or not. FR

Like many birds(people understand birds) they risk life and limb(whoops no limbs, see what happened) to get their eggs to a particular place. Why?

First of all, you answered your own question...

They behaviorally place the eggs in places that, not only hatch the eggs, but also, have the highest chances of allow the babies to survive.

Why? Thousands of generations of natural selection. Picky mothers contribute more offspring to the next generation and presumably pass that characteristic to their offspring. After a few thousand generations we have a species which is picky about where it drops its eggs.
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Chris Harrison

A damp hide in a sweater box?

no disrespect meant Chris. But to "settle" for a damp hide in a plastic box or a waterbowl or whatever doesn't seem too picky.

I certainly agree we are dealing with animals that need to be respected, but I'm cautous about presuming anything.It also begs the question: Are eggbound individuals sometimes refusing to lay because they have not found suitable areas? Rather than it being health related?

I do think that eggbound snakes sometimes become that way due to stress caused by unsuitable places for them to lay. This is why in the past I have tried using more than one nest box in a restless females cage. I have never heard of a person reporting the find of an eggbound snake in the wild.....has anyone else? I do see some pics of snakes that are quite large laying in very small containers. Even things like plastic gallon milk containers and flower pots. I am sure in the wild snakes somehow manage to lay in very tight quarters but in captivity I chose a large nesting site for my animals. If you consider a scene like a snake inside a hollow log for example, what are the chances something else will disturb the snake? Probably not much. But I am totally guilty of peeking in on gravid snakes 50 times a day to see what is going on with them,and I bet many of us are. That can equal stress, and influence a snake to feel uncomfortable with the spot we provide for them. Tom Stevens

I think many of these posts are helpful in stretching our minds and challenging long held views. Truth stands on its own.

I suspect in some ways our animals are a lot smarter than we think. I've heard the stories of Mountain kings egging on bird attacks just to locate where the nests are then climbing up and eating the babies. Then I look at my animals and no matter how nice the cage I find myself thinking"How can I keep this thing in captivity?"

On the other hand, I have some dump in their water time and time again and am in awe of their "inteligence" LOL

I have seen several eggbound females in nature. From greenrats to tantillas. Once on our study site. My partner was with one fella and I was with another, we have radios. He called me and said, we found a gravid female(lepidus) and something is wrong with it. I asked, how do you know something is wrong? He said, cause while palpating it, a rock hard ovum fell into my hand, hahahahahahahaha of course I said, yea, that will do it.

But really that is not the point, failure is most common in nature, you surely understand, there is a 95% or more, failure rate for each years young. Also a very high failure rate for individuals that do not have a successful pattern of behavior and related enviornment. Of the successful adults, there is a relatively low failure rate. All of that is included in any population.

Whats so odd about captivity is, We have an extremely high success rate for neonates, compared to nature, and an extremely low recruitment rate for females, and a extremely high longevity for adults. Odd combination.

Consider, neonates in nature rarely succeed in finding the necessary components to support their life, in searching for these, they expose themselves to the dangers of life. More food for thought. FR

Because I've read about breeders beginning to go for larger cages where the animals could get better muscle tone moving from level to level and they felt the incidence of eggbound animals was down because of it.

Thanks for sharing valuable field observations.

There are many many reasons why snakes become egg bound. How about dehydration (artificial heat sources are great for this), lack of muscle tone, clutch sizes that are much larger than in the wild, improper nutrition (lab mice often fed only dog food), improper temperatures, breeding every year, etc, etc

I would also add that if a female can only choose between a damp lay box and the dry bottom of the cage, she is being picky when she chooses the box.

>>I do think that eggbound snakes sometimes become that way due to stress caused by unsuitable places for them to lay. This is why in the past I have tried using more than one nest box in a restless females cage. I have never heard of a person reporting the find of an eggbound snake in the wild.....has anyone else? I do see some pics of snakes that are quite large laying in very small containers. Even things like plastic gallon milk containers and flower pots. I am sure in the wild snakes somehow manage to lay in very tight quarters but in captivity I chose a large nesting site for my animals. If you consider a scene like a snake inside a hollow log for example, what are the chances something else will disturb the snake? Probably not much. But I am totally guilty of peeking in on gravid snakes 50 times a day to see what is going on with them,and I bet many of us are. That can equal stress, and influence a snake to feel uncomfortable with the spot we provide for them. Tom Stevens
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

Absolutely without a question the damp hide is better than the dry cage floor. I think we were kind of mulling around the idea of snake smarts abit.

But what about the "smart" ones that lay their clutch on the heat pad or in the water bowl despite other seemingly good areas/hides?

Just mulling about their intelligence.

Rick, Like mulling over why some hatchlings refuse pinks over and over only accepting lizards. How "intelligent " on a snakes part is that to starve rather than make do with a pink.(Especially when sibs eat the pinks) It may be something deep about nutritional needs or years of feeding on only lizards passed down through generations or it may come down to being just stubborn, cutting off the nose to spite the face sort of. I don't know, but in any conversation about their smarts it's nice to wade through the entire pic not just the behaviuors that make them look intelligent.

My moneys on that they are smarter than we give them credit for.

It's not like they are choosing to starve to death. If the snakes doesn't recognize the pinky as food you might as well be offering it a crayon to eat. Whether its sibling will eat the pink is irrelevant.

>>Rick, Like mulling over why some hatchlings refuse pinks over and over only accepting lizards. How "intelligent " on a snakes part is that to starve rather than make do with a pink.(Especially when sibs eat the pinks) It may be something deep about nutritional needs or years of feeding on only lizards passed down through generations or it may come down to being just stubborn, cutting off the nose to spite the face sort of. I don't know, but in any conversation about their smarts it's nice to wade through the entire pic not just the behaviuors that make them look intelligent.
>>
>> My moneys on that they are smarter than we give them credit for.
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

>> But what about the "smart" ones that lay their clutch on the heat pad or in the water bowl despite other seemingly good areas/hides?

"Seemingly" according to who?
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

Rick, Thats why I said "seemingly", it's open, there are probably reasons unknown to us. Not looking to argue, looking to hash things over. You may have a point about them not recognizing it as food but when we are talking about assigning maybe how "intelligent" they are, (trying to understand where they are coming from) it is reasonable to look at these incidents of behaviuor and ask questions.

Problem is you are trying to assign intelligence based upon their rational thought, for which they have none. They act on instinct and therefore appear dumb as a stick from time to time.

>>Rick, Thats why I said "seemingly", it's open, there are probably reasons unknown to us. Not looking to argue, looking to hash things over. You may have a point about them not recognizing it as food but when we are talking about assigning maybe how "intelligent" they are, (trying to understand where they are coming from) it is reasonable to look at these incidents of behaviuor and ask questions.
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

I hear you. But if the stories are true about observations of Mtn. Kings egging on bird attacks to locate the nestling birds.
And Indigos, ( I believe on the Indigo forum this year)purposely sitting up on some type of perch in the middle of a hunting area to pounce on something it makes you wonder about things and how we view these animals we like so much.(and how they view us).Have a good one. Nice site by the way Rick.

Goes back to learned behavior inherited by successful adults? Or maybe preferred food items? Who's to say some snakes just prefer the taste and/or texture of lacertilians over mammals? Just some random thoughts, but God probably made them to expertly suvive in their world, not ours. Some were destined to be on the low end of the food chain while others...can't really see an adult indigo losing many battles when it can swiftly flee if the scale tips the other way. Garters can and will eat a host of prey items but are also high on the menu. I think the ability to search and explore its surroundings goes toward some intelligence, but likely the snakes "sense" the best place to lay or nest. Who knows, when I die, I'll ask Him if He's willing!
Snakes are cool!
Todd

Years back when asking Don Soderberg about a pair of Corns I was working with he told me[as far as looks] that it was very likely half the babies would take after the father and half would look more like the mother. In tune with what you were saying...I wonder if for example a male who prefers to eat lizards breeds a female who prefers rodents.... if the influence carries into the next generation? We'll never know...but it could be. Miami phase Corns and others known from the farthest south produce finicky babies, and many feel it is because their main food source in the wild is lizards. Yet other types of Corns, even found just a few hours north in Florida readily take pinkies from their first meals onward. That is a frustrating thing...to see a snake stare at a pinky and just not do a damn thing.....when you know it has to be hungry LOL. Not too mention the worry that comes with getting it to eat something other than a rodent knowing it may "get stuck" on that taste and refuse anything else. Tom Stevens

That's why I love the kings, a lot will eat a variety and I don't really try to train 'em to mice as offer wild caughts a variety of stuff from their microhabitat at first, to try and ease the transition from w.c. to captivity. C.B. animals should be fed f/t or live mice, birds, etc. always, but w.c. seem to do better starting off with a meal they are familiar with. Adults seem to be easier than neos in my opinion, but most of our local getula go right for a correct sized rodent. Go figure! My 2 coppers anyway.
Todd

I have really learned from your recent postings.

I have come to the conclusion, lately, that just because things "look good" with the snakes - well they mnay not be. In other words, I have tried to figure out what they really need and want to thrive and a lot of times we just do not try to put a lot of thought and effort into what is best for the snake.

Your posts about temperature (and bluerosy's additional comments) have really made me think.

Thanks for posting... I am only 33 and I think you have a few years on me in the snake-keeping department (though I have been keeping them since I was 5). How things have changed since all we knew about snakes came from a TFH book, huh?
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com
peterjolles@eastcoastcolubrids.com

Hi Peter, what we must understand is, it does not necessarily have to be about better or worse, or right or wrong.

I do believe the first thing to do with a new captive or when your a beginer, is get control. Provide conditions that allow health. It does not matter if its the best or not, or natural or not. Learn to not fail. Then once you've learned that. Then learn to allow your captives to express their inherent traits. Then, learn to bring out their natural personal differences. All this, keeps you the keeper interested. It also allows us to appreciate our captives as both wild animals and captives or even pets. In combination, not, one or the other.

One thing that bothers me a tiny bit is, many here only consider these reptiles as captives and in captivity. Or from a caresheet. They do not understand, they are exsisting wild animals. They are not mice in a pet shop. Heck even mice have a natural history.

So yes, there are many ways to be successful and there is nothing wrong with any of them. But I will have to say, the more ways your successful, the more fun it is. Even if it includes profit. FR

I once read someone researching a type of Mt King located a gravid female. This snake must have had an awesome spot to spend its life because the person claimed it was never far from a few specific areas, The details of this research are not something I can easily recall but this sounds a lot like what you're getting at Frank. That is the guy knew where the snake deposited the eggs. He must have timed it to be aware of the approximate time the snakes hatched. He witnessed some babies leave the nest and watched where a few wandered. One of these did not go but more than 10 feet from where it initially crawled out of after recently hatching. He then noted that this hatchling literally stayed in this general area and was seen time and time again as it matured returning to its favorite niche in the rocks. So as you mention a goal of nature is too let the offspring have a chance to grow up, this example really sounds in tune with what you were saying. Apparently this snake was born, and found a place it liked extremely close to where it was hatched and decided it had no need to wander elsewhere. When expanding our thoughts to inbreeding that takes place in the wild it is a good bet others did not stray far from where they were born and eventually bred each other or the parents. I was always fascinated by that story. It makes me think of times in spring when I would find more than one snake under any piece of debris.It also makes me cringe that some people would be overjoyed to find such a hot spot, as they would fill their bags to pawn these snakes off for dinero. Here's a question....have you ever had a nest site in your cage that conditions were so optimal....that you did not need an incubator and left them where they were laid until they actually hatched? I have never heard of anyone doing that with colubrids. Tom Stevens

Hmmmm. I have many nesting localities for Mt. Kings, I have been watching for years, and your friend is right. Heck, my kids even got to watch them. I also do the same with gilas, I have been watching some groups for 26 years. I have seen adults become replaced by their offspring, and so forth and so on. This year, I encountered 44 gilas, most in pairs, that came from groups, I photographed most important events, including breeding and ovulating.

I have also done the same with rattlesnakes. Of a few species.

I have a very funny story, you know how breeding males can be very goofy, sometimes they attempt to mate the walls, water bowls, etc. Well last year, I took a pic of two males, each on top a female, but, each was copulating with a rock. hahahahahahahahahaha all in one pic. I have posted all this and far far more on our monitor site. Including life of a wild pet lizard that is my buddy. Check it out. Varanus.net, monitor forum.

Consider, once you understand reptiles(at least a little) I have no problem filling a pickup bed with gravid gilas, pyros, rockrattlesnakes, etc. Its all about understanding what they do. FR

I don't have broad experience breeding snakes like the rest of you, but I do have 40 years of experience keeping and breeding tropical fish, especially members of the family Cichlidae. What I found was that the critters were programmed to reproduce. I would provide the right conditions and even the so-called impossible breeders would breed. I believe the same goes for our reptile friends. One other thing I learned was to not be so darn intrusive in their world. I think that too often we muck about with them too much and in our obsession with getting eggs/young we screw the works (can a preacher say that?). Another deposit of $.02.

Pat

The screw is holding two pieces of wood together, hahahahahahahaha. FR