Reptile & Amphibian Forums

There are soooo many new morphs along with designers coming out it's insane... Does anyone think it's moving too fast??? I mean, last year it seemed like the "White" ball python was coveted, and now you can pick up a proven line yellow belly male for 2500 if you have a good connection... The "Awww" factor has almost been lost with "White" balls.. Prices have definitely plummeted on them.. Now you have mojave x lots of stuff, lessers x lots of stuff, etc... Is this just a race to make the next best thing?? I think it devalues the things that really are spectacular, it makes them "Old news"... I mean, the new stuff is being made before the old stuff even has a chance to be substantially outcrossed... Look at boas, Motleys, sharps, etc have been out for years, and it's just now that designers are being made with them on a semi hobbiest level.. I dunno, I'm kind of rambling on, and I'm not sure if I've explained it how I'm thinking it but maybe someone will understand what I'm saying...
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Joe Lydon
Got Boids?

You are right, things are moving fast...

However, we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg...

Sure, Co-dom designers are hiting the shelf in mass numbers, they will be a dime a dozen within a couple years...

Recessives are the investment to make, get those to breeding size and then plug all those co-dom into them...

Yep, everyone will have a white snake within two years...

Still lots of designers to look forward to...

Did I say go recessive!

IN MY OPINION.....
Congrats to all the breeders producing some awesome new morphs.. But I believe the truth is they will stay with the individuals who have produced them for years to come.. Lets be real 95% of the reptile community cannot even afford a $6,000 snake much less a $40,000 or $ 60,000. AND the big breeders know this the only way they may get the "true value" they are asking is threw trading. The crosses will go on and on and on and alot of amazing snakes will be produced but the truth is the public wont be able to get near them for 20 years. Lately I noticed alot of storys of "deformed" babies hatching and everyone is blaming it on egg stress I believe that is possible but there is just wayyyyyyy to much in-breeding in the reptile word especialy ball pythons and its because the breeders wont take the time to introduce new blood into the gene pool to keep things evened out they rather in-breed to produce faster results and more money and the species gets all the negative effects... Now im not singleing anyone out or trying to start a fight.. I just enjoyed the previous post that was posted and wanted to give my 2 cents... Im just wondering when someone is gonna come threw with alot of morphs and money and slice the ball python world to pieces by lowering the prices dramatically????? Any insight on the subject would be great..
Jbugg

You are so right, its ONLY about the money for most breeders....

"Lately I noticed alot of storys of "deformed" babies hatching and everyone is blaming it on egg stress ..."

I don't know about others but I'm pretty sure mine is well outbred. His mother was from an unknown source but from how big she was when I first saw her I've estimated she was hatched about 1997 and there wasn't much captive breeding done back then. His father was a 50% het from a het X normal and that het was from Bob Clark's imported stripe X normal (I can't be sure the normals where different animals but likely since those breedings where done by two different breeders). Also, if inbreeding did cause genetic classic jungles we would be able to reproduce them by now by inbreeding.

Randy I was not singleing you out at all. The breeders that in-breed and do produce "deformed babies" know why, just egg stress is a easy excuse.

I certainly wasn't taking any offence. I was just pointing out my blip of a data point seems to exclude inbreeding and lean toward egg stress.

I don't completely agree with your thoughts on Simple Recessive vs Co Dom. I see morphs that have a super as basically the same thing as simple recessive morph. The difference is one has visual hets and one does't but the time frame is the same to get a homo or a super. breeding a pastel male to a normal female and raising the female pastels up to create a super is essentially the same time frame as breeding a Pied male to normal females and raising the het girls up to produce a homo. A super pastel male is 10k....and holding. Co Dom morphs are a powerful....powerful animals to work with. Yes the lesser (pastel) morph will depreciate rather quickly but so do simple recessive hets. The supers and the homo animals retain there value much longer. The power of the Co Dom is the breeding options available even at the lesser level......ie Pastel X anything. What can you do with a simple recessive het other then raise it up and breed it to a parent. Co Doms give you tons of muti-generational options and value.

Now....I do agree with you on the Dom stuff....that will depreciate much much faster with less options. Although animals like the Spider will hang in there.

To me the ultimate weapon is when you mix the Co Dom and simple recessive stuff together. Look at the Platty project....holy crap!

I compare blue eyed Lucys to having a Super Pastel. How many people do you know with a super? How many supers do you see up for sale.....not many. You won't see many lucys either. These Co Dom Supers will retain there value.
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Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles
pythonpassion@hotmail.com
www.pythonpassionreptiles.com

Good reply.

Chris
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mean people suck

The only way to keep the market going is to keep coming up with new crosses. And I think some of us have a natural inclination to want to see what can be done next with some genes, which is why we see a lot of new stuff every year. You are also stuck with a double edge sword in this industry - especially with the co-doms. They are fairly easy to reproduce and in order to keep the value up you need to keep the demand high and the supply low. What we see too often is that the market gets flooded by people that want to make money so they breed their male co-dom to everything they can and then sell, sell, sell cause you know next year they won't be worth half as much. This lowers the demand and the price and pretty much allows everyone the opportunity to pick up a codom and make their own white snake within a couple of years. This year I'm seeing lots of YBs and Mojavies, hopefully with the new crosses there will be more people holding on and this in turn will allow thier value and the value of their product (white snakes) to remain at a high. I think a good example of someone who kept their market value high was Tracy and the Spotnose - I don't think you'll be seeing her flooding the market with them nor do I think anyone holding them will go that route either. But we will have to wait and see.

Sorry for the rambling. Now for my morning coffee.
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Tosha

"Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed." Don Wood

"Of course, that's only my opinion...and I believe I am God." =) Chris Bianco

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

As far as inbreeding is concerened...it has little to no affect on the ball python herd in captivity. 1st of all the majority of people bring in new blood to there collection from import babies for their co doms...sometimes as many as 50 or 60 babies at a time...that in itself opens up the gene pool. Most of the recessives are so expensive that many people produce hets before producing homozygous animals...these hets are produced from import babies or they obtain hets that where produced from someone elses import babies...little to no inbreeding...as far as kinks and such...the only morph out there that has any problems seems to be the Caramels...and there are many groups out there that are reproducing these without kinks...the job to do on those is reproduce those without kinks and put down the ones with kinks.
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Michael Enriquez

I agree with your disagreement. The spinal kinks in the Caramels and the deformed head of the Super Cinny most likely have nothing to do with inbreeding. I'd say either pleiotropy or gene linkage. (I'm guessing pleiotropy. There's a ton of that in the codoms. Time will tell.)

Either way...it's probably not the inbreeding.

Chris
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mean people suck

Inbreeding happens all the time though some may not admit it.. It may show no effect in the short term but dont you think it will show up in the long term.. I know how most morphs are proven out. A single animal is aqcuired then breed to produce hets then breed niether to each other or back to the original animal.. A whole morph can be produced from one single animal which in the long term means each snake such as the albino is related to every other albino some way or another... Im glad that some breeders do out breed to keep blood fresh and thats great im just pointin out some dont.

Inbreeding does happen - especially with new morphs many times over and then when they are ready to be mass produced (so to speak) they are outbred. Does it affect the gene pool - who reallly knows at this points it's mear speculation.

As far as problems - well there are several morphs that appear to have some genetic problem not just the carmel - the spider spin, the clowns have funny heads and I hear there is also an issue with the woma and the cinny has a big head to (CJ?)? I'm sure there are more.
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Tosha

"Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed." Don Wood

"Of course, that's only my opinion...and I believe I am God." =) Chris Bianco

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

The Super Cinny has a thin (kinda squished) head.

And you're right. It is speculation at this point. One reason for the concern is that if a "bad" gene is present in a single animal, inbreeding may cause it to spread amongst the entire population. But what many people fail to consider is that a "good" gene could just as easily be spread around through inbreeding. (You humans always seem to focus on the negative.) Genetic diversity can have its drawbacks as well as its benefits. In fact, it could be argued that it is safer to inbreed animals with no known history of defect than it is to outcross with a new animal of unknown genetic history.

I always try to play it safe and break even -- as little inbreeding as possible.

Chris
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mean people suck

Inbreeding is a tool that is the foundation of all human animal husbandry. Virtually every domesticated breed to cattle, dogs, cats, plants, crops, etc. etc. were created using inbreeding to varying degrees. Even the different races of humans are the result of a restricted gene pool. I am sure we can all easily see the incredible positive impacts that selective inbreeding and outcrossing have had on the plants and cattle we use for food. I am sure we are also fully aware of the negative consequences of inbreeding in the hands of those looking to make a quick buck as reflected in the health problems and deformities found in some of our purebred dogs. Inbreeding is a very powerful tool in the hands of a responsible and knowlegeable breeder that fully understands genetics. In the hands of someone less knowlegeable or with other motives (ie financial), the results over time can be predictably catastrophic.
Genetics is not all single alleles and loci as Mendel described. Today we know that most traits are influenced by multiple genes and loci.
It can be argued that in the abscence of inbreeding or "selection" (natural or otherwise) that outcrossing ultimately results in a population moving toward a homogeneous lowest common denominator.
Inbreeding is the strongest and most valuable tool we have at our disposal. We should just make sure we are using it wisely and to full advantage.
Grant

I love the ignorant people that rant rave about how bad inbreeding is and how the snake is going to have 3 heads and 20 eyes and spinal kinks, etc etc, yet have NO idea how genetics work, even at the simplest level(s). My suggestion for those people is to get a basic genetics book (grade 10 up here in Canada) and read up on it. Then you'll have a good basis to form opinions and debate upon.

Also, ask yourself how far wild BP's migrate to mate in Africa? Hmmm.... OR, do they mate in select pockets (populations) where gene flow is not all that large, or randomn. Hmmm.....

outcrossings need to be done, or it will F em' up!

I know what you guys are saying & agree 100%, but most people here would think by reading your posts that it is okay to beed brother/sister/mother/father for countless generations without effect (you can for so long but it will turn ugly eventually).
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Chad Bachman

There's extremists on BOTH sides of the arguement. Point well taken man.

Watchit, I'm one of those ignorant people. Although I tend not to get involved in discussions about genetics and inbreeding, for that very reason. I would like to comment on what you said about it happening in the wild. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most, if not all, animals will instinctually either, as parents drive off the young to find their own territory............or as young , at a certain age, just leave to find their own home away from home. This naturally prevents alot of inbreeding in the wild. I'm sure reptiles are capable of traveling as far as instinct dictates. I'm not saying inbreeding in the wild doesn't happen, but I believe it happens alot less than many people think.

Quig

or as young , at a certain age, just leave to find their own home away from home

So you're saying that baby BP's by the hundreds flee the area in which they hatched to take up root elsewhere? And if they do, does say a clutch of 8 babies make sure to go to 8 different places so that they don't breed together?

Test it out with your local snakes. If you've ever found a secret "pocket" or "cache" of where the hunting is good, try and imagine those snakes moving to another area when they are born. Usually there is some barrier in the way, oftentimes man-made. Same with amphibians. Frogs will come back to the SAME pond, year after year, generation after generation. Newts and salamanders are even worse. Do they just know not to breed with related specimens?

I'm not ultra-pro inbreeding, but I do like to look at how nature does it (REALLY look) and then formulate my opinions from there. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong. Not at all. Just givin' you a basis of where I'm coming from.

Cheers brother.

No sweat Jeff, point taken. After I'd thought about it a while, I'd remembered herpin' certain areas here in Michigan, and finding clusters of male snakes all over single females and wonderin', among other things, how many of those are last years young'ns. I stand corrected.

Quig

Kind of grody when you think about it eh?!!

Cheers brotha.

Jeff, I've seen humans act like that in bars late at night LOL. It's gruesome and entertainin, at the same time.

Quig

Talk about ignorance

Also, ask yourself how far wild BP's migrate to mate in Africa? Hmmm.... OR, do they mate in select pockets (populations) where gene flow is not all that large, or randomn. Hmmm.....

Hmmmm...... What happens in the wild cannot be controlled what you do in captivity on purpose is another ball game.

if done improperly, it will screw animals up!
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Chad Bachman

with time. All animals suffer from inbreeding sooner or later, and Balls are no different! If you are outcrossing to fresh blood, it would not really be inbreeding.
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Chad Bachman

As far as inbreeding is concerened...it has little to no affect on the ball python herd in captivity.

Maybe we are not seeing many problems now but how about 10yrs from now?? Ball pythons are known to live 15 years. I guarntee ALOT of these animals produced by in-breeding have had there lives tremendously reduced.. But I guess to some breeders as long as they live long enough to breed and sell it doesnt matter either way...
Jbugg

The train is going and it's not to late to get on. This market has only begun to take off. The market only get's stimulated with the new morphs created. Could they be paced out a little more....sure....but I don't think it hurts the market.

The ball market is like compounding interest....the morph base keeps getting larger, therefore the number of future potential designer morphs creation is multiplied by a larger number. Many of us will have the opportunity to create and name our own morph. that is a personal goal of mine.

Now is a great time to get involved.....I do think that picking the right projects to invest in will become critical. Some projects have better long term potential then others.

There is a Buzz right now in this market! It's not going anywhere for awhile.
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Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles
pythonpassion@hotmail.com
www.pythonpassionreptiles.com

whats up jim how are you.........i enjoy your post and know after speaking to you and deling with you that your intentions are good and id never have as problem doing business again with you.........anyway im wondering with the talk of the market crashing or not crashing even though im not in it just for money but money is what it takes to one day own all of these incredable morphs or have like you said the opportunity to create "your own" one day.....my intentions are to breed and trade for the first few years to biuld a nice breeding stock of many new gorgeous morphs.....but i see sometimes the SAME adds month after month for what seem like afordable animals from respectable dealers....why do these animals sit so long.....if i used examples people may take it as bashing in some way so ill leave up to those who visit the adds daily to recognize these animals and maybe have an answer that i dont as to why they are still there.......and with all these new co-doms and doms the numbers are magnified year after year drasticly......... where do they all go ...at some point everyone who wants a ball python will have it and not pay those numbers.......in theory if you had the patience you could start with one male co-dom and holding back everything and breeding each male to his potential you could produce hundreds of that animal in as little as three years.....is there room for all these animals in our collections......i guess time will tell and since im only looking for other morphs from my breedings and dealings i wont have to worry about a payday for years to come.....but someday it would be nice to get back my investment......anyway best of luck to all and thank you for keeping my interest peaked with all these new animals that i somday hope to own and sit and stare at........good luck and god bless.....Jerry Lowry SJS reptiles

sorry to all for my 100 typos and mispelled words.....why is it you read it over and over and as SOON as you post it they stick out like a sore thumb....anyway after my few years of typing as i do ive learned to speak fluent typo i hope some of you can as well and what i wrote makes some sence .......Jerry Lowry SJS reptiles

picture the market 10-15 years from now. it is a proven fact that a portion of the population, when they see their first morph, will go ball-crazy(just like allof us) but right now, morphs are still too valuable and rare to have the opportunity to get to alarge number of consumers, and potential collectors/hobbyists....but standby for the day when albinos and pieds get cheap enough for pet stores to sell....
10-15 years from now, i predict that pieds,and other key recessive morphs will sell for more than just about any other single co-dom of today...imagine thousands of $500 pieds, bumblebees, leucistic etc. hitting the pet stores nationally ...i predict that a certain amount of the population will go berzerk when they see a pied, or a killer bee for sale. with shows like "Crocodile Hunter" and others on the rise, look at how much more herp-savvy/friendly large portions of the general population have become over the past few decades...as the real lay-person-power morphs like pieds and albinos become cheap enough to get in front of a larger number of consumers, i believe that a larger number of people will bring one home...little kids will show their's off to all the other kids on the block, parents will enjoy satisfying the kid's pet-urge,while not having a dog around that barks,or needs to be walked around the block all day, craps all over the lawn,sheds all over the house etc...and incite more demand...due to the fact that the world population becomes increasingly urban,and the pinnicle of perfection for a low maintenance urban pet could arguably be the ballpython, and no other animal on the face of the earth has the same combination of phenotype variation, smallsize, ease of maintenance, and slow reproductive cycle as the ball....THESE ARE STILL THE WILD WEST FRONTIER DAYS PEOPLE!

.
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Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles
pythonpassion@hotmail.com
www.pythonpassionreptiles.com

Thats what I like about you Jerry.........you do it cause you love it!

Your right....some folks do post and post again some of the same animals and it makes one question the vitality of the market. This in my opinion is the market essentially setting itself. The consumer will determine what any given morph will yield for a price. As a seller you have two choices....1) be patient and wait for the price you value the animal at....or 2) lower the price at a level which the consumer will make the purchase. I think patience is important. I also think we need to honor the prices set by the larger breeders to sustain a higher level of pricing. However, at some point some of the animals may need to be sold for a lower price. As the price lowers the pool of consumers increases thus creating a higher demand level. The market will find the balance between the volume being produced.....price....and the avaiable consumers willing to make the purchase.

I hope that the hobby portion of the market grows. People that love the designer snakes and want to collect all the pretty designs and colors.....or hobby level breeders.

When the prices of Pieds....Albinos.....Lucys.....etc. reach a price level where the collector (pet owner) is willing to make a purchase then I think the demand will amazingly surpass the North American Captive Bred supply. You will be able to sell $500 to $1500 snakes all day long. Balls will become a volume game. Instead of 5 $10,000 snakes you will need to produce 50 $1000 dollar animals.

I don't know about you but I could still handle getting 1k a snake........I mean I would do this for nothing.

Great to hear from you Jerry.......I wish you the best this season!

Don't worry I'm sure i have my share of typos up above.......

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Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles
pythonpassion@hotmail.com
www.pythonpassionreptiles.com

My issue is thus:
I'm a 23 year old dude, bills to pay, not so great job...you know the story...

here i am trying to save up for a pastel, and these guys are producing lesser platinum crosses, super forms up the wazoo...etc.

My goal right now is to create a pewter pastel
a: because I like them
b: because i thought they could make me a little money

but now the super cinny pewter has been made.

It's all moving so fast...I feel like I am never going to catch up, or as someone stated before, by the time i DO catch up (get some pieds or a cinny or a spider) the prices for these guys will be a dime a dozen.

I am not trying to make the big time breeders feel bad or anything (and i doubt i could haha), but it doesn't leave much room for the little guy who is trying to get started.

You know theres always going to be room for the little guys too. Even when some of us are pursuing our Ivories and Supers and new whatevers, there are always going to be those that just want (and can afford) their pastels and albinos and pieds, etc. Our plan is to build our foundation on those morphs that are tried and true and most affordable to the average joe and slowly add some of the higher end animals to our collection. Hopefully our collection will keep up with the market and hopefully we'll break even and have the animals that we want! I certainly don't want to be a huge breeder and have 100s of clutches every year, but it'd be nice to one day be able to name my own morph!
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Tosha

"Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed." Don Wood

"Of course, that's only my opinion...and I believe I am God." =) Chris Bianco

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul)
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 Pool skimmer rescues for this season

I used to feel the same way. I look at it like this:

I have been gifted with the slacker mentality. I don't want fame or fortune. I want a small humble business and a small humble home. If I can make just enough to live off, I'm a very happy camper. =)

And I look forward to the day when every morph is $100-1000 at most. Many breeders will drop out and I'll have a lot less competition. I can afford to buy a bazillion different breeder morphs and grow a wonderfully diverse colony of animals.

I may have to breed more animals, but that's just a positive. More animals for me.

By the way...my only goal is to make enough per season to pay rent for one year. That's all. No $100K goals for me.

I'm a slacker...and that's why I'm a happy man. =)

Chris
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mean people suck

AMEN!!!!!
Someone earlier said they wanted to be the 1st person to produce thier own new morph..HAHAHAHAHAHA doubtful. 98% of us will never produce our own morphs. It's impossible to catch up we just have to go with the flow. Unless your a multi millionaire then perhaps you can buy 2 new morphs that just came out and breed them and have your own morph.. But thats about it. There are morphs that have already been produced and not been made public..
Remember after the super phase is produced just like the super tiger retic there is not a super super so the market will drop dramatically when the combinations end. Also there are no dwarf ball pythons or anything like that..

I look forward to the price reduction on morphs!

Why you ask?

When I get my baby girls up to breeding size, and get some eggs, I hope to sell some of the offspring. I'm just a new, small time, future breeder, with no reputation.

Who in their right mind would spend mega bucks on a morph that I have up for sale vs. a big time breeder with years of experience?
If I had some low end morphs, with a price tag that the Average Joe could afford, I think I'd have much better luck selling my snakes.

Starting to ramble, hope this makes sense!!

I hope I didn't offend anyone, and I hope no one tells me to get out of the pit, if I cant hang with the big snakes!

Thanks,
Ken
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0.5 Normal Ball Pythons (Norma, Nova, Nala, Nimeesha, Nyoka)
1.1 Argentine B/W Tegus (Draco and Drucilla)
0.1 Columbian B/W Tegu (Diablo)
1.0 Black Throat Monitor (Razor)
1.0 Desert Tortoise (Tubbs) from Tortoise Rescue
1.0 Boxer (Shadow)
0.1 Feline (CK)
1.0 Memory of my Redtail Boa (Mo) which passed away after 28 years

you could sell one animal in a year for $10,000 or 10 animals worth 1,000 who cares...if your in it to make money get out..this is fun...your NOT gonna be rich one day and you'll NEVER "catch up"...the king said it best...PLAY THE GAME AT THE LEVEL YOU CAN AFFORD....it's about the animals for me not the money and thats why I'll be around in 10 years.

well look at it this way .......when you are 33 and haev ten years of collecting and breeding there will be another 23 year old in your boat......sure the prices will drop but you will no longer one ONE animal.......its like if a stock splits ..sure the price per share goes down but now you own many more shares....and not to mention the now breedable animals you have raised.....do what you do because you love it and you will be payed back with more then money......Jerry Lowry SJS reptiles

I thank everyone who put their 2 cents in... You guys are the pros, very intelligent. Let me just state that I believe the market is doing extremely well.. But it's just like cars, one year they come out with a new unbelievable body style, an overall killer car with a huge mark up eveyone will pay... And then 3yrs later they redesign the car, make it even better, and the older model (still awesome) is insanely devalued, but if they didn't come out with the new and improved model, the old one would still be great. The Only difference is that car companies will continue to make new cars, will mother nature continue making new morphs(I highly doubt it)??? If the car company continued to make the same old car, it would take a lot longer than 3yrs for everyone to lose interest in it... And I'll say this without hinting to anyone, it's only hypothetical, I obviously can't give advice to anyone, but if I was on top and wanted to see this thing last a lot longer, I'd keep some things private, let people enjoy the "Old model" for a while before I went and redesigned it.. It's almost like a mob mentality, last year it was white because that was the huge thing, now it's silver shaded balls... What's it going to be next year?? This is a very interesting hobby, and I'd like to see it keep it's interest, everyone keeps getting aww struck and they begin to expect more. Again, all just my opinions, I'm new, but I know I'll be in this past the days of $500.00 bumblebees...
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Joe Lydon
Got Boids?

this business is much better than that. sure there might be new models but unlike cars, everyone is always going to need pastels, pieds, albinos, cinnis, mojaves, etc. to make these new morphs. heck, pastels are in almost 1/2 the combos out there. and have you ever noticed by the end of october how many people are searching for a normal female - they are willing to pay big bucks - and that was the morph - in my opinion - that started it all !!! and the public is still wanting more than what is out there. if you get in now - you will be very happy 10 years from now.

Life only moves as fast as you let it, if you choose to keep up there is always a price to pay, I myself started with P Regius when I was 21. Took on some debt getting in , put alot of time and effort into it and now produce a variety of morphs and enjoy the heck out of it! It's up to you to decide what you can and can't do , it won't gain you much to give up on your dreams before you've even tried to reach them! You can breed expensive snakes just like the rest of us , if that is you work it at , nobody said life was a cakewalk! I started out with normal Balls to , I just added a little bit to the gene pool here and there, it takes time but that's also part of the fun of it, it gives people something to do, something to focus on that's productive in it's own way, eventually it becomes a steady amount of work keeping up with it , but you can draw your own boundaries there as well... Anthony McCain-McCain's Reptiles.