Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My favorite article in Reptiles mag was the Pituophis special from April 2001. This listed the names for Pit Species and Subspecies. For the record it does state"This is a list of all known species and subspecies of the Pit group. Because of the current systematic struggle, others may see another way to arrange the list. I allow them the same privilege. Let them research and then call them how,where, or what they may". With that said the common names of a few snakes seem to have a few different labels and I am wondering why??? I have heard both Deppei and Jani called Gophers, Bulls and Pines. And now the Lineaticollis is being referred to as a Pine. The Gibsoni seems to be the least talked about to we'll leave that one out for now but according to this article it says
Pit. Deppei Deppei=Mexican Pine
Pit. Deppei Jani= Northen Mexican Pine
Pit. Lineaticollis= Cincuate Bull
Pit. Lineaticollis Gibsoni= Guatamalan Bull
I have heard many different handles for these animals. A few that come to mind are Durango Mt Gophers and Pines, Lined Pines,Jans Gopher or Bull etc. Since a few years have passed since this article, has there been any research done to verify these particular snakes should have a single common name? I think most of us refer to the Deppei Deppei and simply Deppei and and Deppei Jani as Jani. I myself say Dep EE EYE, while others say Dep EYE. So if anyone has any info I would like to hear about it. The article was written by Patrick Briggs and the legendary Lloyd Lemke. Tom Stevens

tom, i have often pondered the same question, we all have probably. my opinon.....they remind me of gopher snakes. definitely not bullish.........

Well,
for good reading having to do with this subject, I'd recommend reading the following paper.
http://www.unlv.edu/faculty/jrodriguez/21.pdf

Or just do a web search, Molecular Systematics Pituophis, and that should show up! But anyhow, I had a course in college, Herpetology, and took plenty of Biology courses, as I was a Zoology major. But I don't feel that makes me a field worker by any means! As for common names, they can be confusing, cause as you notice, for jani, there can be several diff common names. So for me, it's easier to call them jani, rather than try to stick to any one of several common names which could confuse people. Not that long ago someone had an ad that read, Mexican Pine. And that was all they said, never said in the ad which one of three it could have been! Though price told me it sure wasn't lineaticolis! They are very likely a southern branch of the Pituophis family, and thus being so, people instead of trying to use the scientific name, put a common name to the snakes, but different groups...used diff names. thus the confusion. From my keeping these guys, the jani, for a short while now, I'd have to say they are more a gopher snake than a Pine snake. Yet still obviously Pituophis. Yet they are still a bit different than gophers, but more different from pines yet. For me, calling them jani suits me just fine! But the common name Northern Mexican Pine is the common name for them that I use. As for pronounciation, I say Dep eye. So that's my little two cents worth!
Russell

Hi - I'm a biologist doing research on the taxonomy and ecology of the Pits you asked about. You're right that the names, english and latin, are a little up in the air. Jst a few points to add to the other posts:

1. P.deppei is correctly pronounced "deppeee-eye" Deppe was a german naturalist and a lot of othe critters are named after him too.

2. Important to remember that P. lineaticollis and P. deppei are not bulls, gophers or pines - they're something different, and they just never got an english name because they're not well known here. It's true that they look gopherish as babies, but as adults P. lineaticollis (at least captive ones that I've seen) look like huge, heavy-bodied (8 ft ) pine snakes. I go along with people who call them Mexican pines. But jani is found east of deppei, not north of it, so we need a better name - San Luis Potosi pine is the best (since that state covers almost their whole range). And lineaticollis could be Mexican lined (or stripe-necked) pine, and P.l. gibsoni the Guatemalan lined (or stripe-necked) pine.

3. For the record, it's clear that sonoran gophers and P. deppeio hybridize in a large area of central Mexico. They'rre separated by elevation to some extent, but with overlap. Whether that means one species should be sunk into the other is something I'm examining right now.

just my thoughts,
Craig Stanford
Dept. Biological Sciences, USC and Herpet. Division, LA County Museum of Natural History

Hi Craig
Thanks for some insight , I finded your information very interesing and would like to learn about Mexican Pits . Can you suggest any good books or websites. I would also be interested some more what you know.

Thanks Jason

Thanks a million for replying. I am a colubrid fanatic but Pituophis are my faves,....and Pit keepers seem to be in a class by themselves[in a great way]. The article in Reptiles I referred too was really the only thing I found informative[ as far as anything I have read recently anyway] as it seems Pits do not get half the attention of other colubrids so since I have your attention I [and I am sure many others] would love to hear from you about anything and everything Pit related.
First off I am glad I have been pronouncing Deppei properly LOL! Next I have to say never in any conversation with other snake people has the possibility of the snakes we're speaking of been referred too as "something different" other than Bulls Pines and Gophers. One good friend pointed out that baby Lineaticollis almost resemble Asian Rat snakes. Regardless, can you tell us if a new name for these animals is in the works? Or do you think it is more likely that all 4 snakes will eventually be labeled as Pines? San Luis Potosi Pine is a great name [For the Jani] seeing I am sure most of us have heard the Mex Mex Kings called that...it would possibly catch on quickly. Please keep us informed about the Sonoran Gopher X P. Deppei hybrid deal. I have never heard anyone mention that before. And also could you tell us if the Deppei and Jani have ever been found to intergrade in the wild? These snakes are becoming increasingly popular in the hobby and it would be great to have everyone in agreement as to what they should be labeled as. In closing may I ask how many of either Lineaticollis you've been able to see in person? Are the Gibsoni the hardest ones to work with in captivity or are they just the most protected? Alan Kardon showed me a recent wild caught specimen at the San Antonio Zoo 2 or 3 years back and it was excellent looking. Very much like a Suboc. Thanks for writing and please keep us informed of any news Thanks Tom Stevens

Tom,
about your questions - I don't know if jani and d. deppei intergrade or hybridize, yet - I've been looking at hundreds of preserved museum animals and I haven't finished the analyses of the data.

When I said that deppei and lineat. are 'something different' from bulls, pines and gophers, I just meant that these are two other species, not melanoleucus or catenifer. Just like we called one Elaphe species fox snakes and another corn snakes, even though superficially they're pretty similar. One thing to remember is that we create these pigionholes when we name them; the snakes just do their thing in Nature. So Louisiana pines are as closely related to some populations of bullsnakes as they are to other pine species, at a genetic level. But we've decided to call them pines, not bulls....

As far as I know, lineaticollis is not rare; it just hasn't beeen imnported much. I'm on my Guatemala to try to find some, study the habitat and their ecology - will be back in September and will post some pics if I'm able to collect some. P.d. deppi has a really large range inn Mexico; it's P.d.jani that has a very small range only in S.L. Potosi.

I'm glad you like calling jani San Luis Potosi pines; it's a really appropriate name for them - spread it around.....
Craig