Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi, I have owned Horned Lizards off and on since I was a kid but it has been about 10 years sice I have had any. I am from California and New Mexico areas orginally but ended up i Virginia for a spell. We still have land in Rodeo NM. and plan to move back soon. I have 8 Lizards (2 roundtails and 6 DHL) About a week ago I found one of my DHL clinging to life, then hours later dead! I put her in the freezer. Then yesterday my baby Roundtail was found dead. I took her out of her enclosure and went to get a baggy then turned around to put her in the baggy and out comes a roundworm from her mouth. Now I have searched for a Vet to see my HL's but noone wants to deal with them here. I need quick help! I am sure the others also have roundworms. I am a AHT by trade but self employed since moving here to VA. I run an Emergency Home Care Service for animals of all types including reptiles. I can worm myself but need to know dosages for these guys. I have never wormed them myself. But if I can find a vet to help me I will most certainly take them in. Or does anyone here have other suggestions on this. I get my ants from Antsalive.com and I feed pinheads, and mini mealworms. I also have many reptiles, Beardies, Basilisks, Chameleons, Tortoises and Turtles plus many snakes. We have also a reptile business just getting off the ground. I got these from someone who bought them at a reptile show. I know I have more experience with them than the kids who bought them did so I took them in. Thanks for any help you can give in this matter.

Hi,

sorry to hear it...hopefully this will help. we had a question on that in here a while back I'll just paste the context of my message from before.

you can check back on page 2 for the title "artificial hibernation/parasites" for more. not sure if anyone else has discussed that topic too. good luck!

Posted by: fireside3 at Thu Mar 10 18:02:35 2005

my best recommendation...Panacur ( Febendazole ) orally 50-100 mg/ per kg body weight repeated after about 2 weeks; Panacur is considered effective against nematodes, and, very safe when not overdosed.

Ivermectin ( Ivomec ) or ( Equvalan ) intermuscular injection is also sometimes used, recommended no more than .2mg/per kg in "some" snakes & lizards & .025mg/ per kg. in "some" turtles. dosage and species recommendations are varied. this drug is considered "use caution" on many reptiles, and unsafe, or outright lethal in dogs, box turtles, tortoises, & indigo snakes. it's full effects on different reptiles is not known. primarily used to treat certain nematodes in farm animals. outside of specific clinical details of effects on Family Iguanidae, I would not recommend using!

if it wasn't done with the previous scat ( fecal ) examinations, I would recommend a floatation fecal test.
( soaking the sample in saline & observing whether parasite eggs float to surface of solution. ) and/or a smear microscope examination. I'm sure if a reptile vet performed the exam
one of these was done. something more than a naked eye inspection may be required to be sure the parasite is gone.

Reptoman offered that the parasite might have moved from the GI tract. I'm not sure on whether the ones common in the GI tract indeed move throughout the animal, but, there may be more than one specific of nematode present in the animal affecting its health/metabolism. they are as follows;

NEMATODES

*ASCARIDS/ All/ Gastric mucosa
*RHABDITIDA/ All, esp. Varanid Lizards/ Lungs
*STRONGYLOIDS/ All/ Esophagus, Intestine
ACANTHOCEPALINS/ Chelonians/ Small Intestine
*FILARIDS/ All/ Blood stream
*PENTASTOMIASIS/ All, esp. Varanid Lizards/ Lungs, Esophagus
*OXYURIDS/ Lizards, Chelonians, Some snakes/ Lower intestine
*CAPILLARIA & EUSTRONGYLIDES/ Snakes, Lizards, Chelonians/ Liver, Bile Duct

as you can see, all but one of these listed could be a possibility. there are also parasites other than nematodes,
and other health conditions which could be to blame. sometimes
other causes are misdiagnosed as a possible parasite and vise versa. but based on the fact that intestinal parasites were present in previous samples, a more vigorous examination and possible retreatment to this end would be in order.

Mick

-----
"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

just as a follow up. these parasites could have come from several places considering you have various reptiles. are they all in seperate enclosures and do you keep utensils, etc. isolated between species. Do you maintain a clean and sterile conditions and wash hands with disinfectant gel or the like before handling a different species, or for that matter a different genus of animal?

are these very small worms? do you have pictures? nematodes are known to be a common parasite that live in harvester ants as well.

Mick
-----
"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Hi Mick and thanks for responding. I have lost another one( a roundtail). This is devasating! To answer your questions. Yes I keep them seperate, do not share anything between different reptiles, In fact I bleach everything every time I use it plus sterlize with alcohol on my hands each time I go from enclosure to enclosure. I know what species of worm this is mainly from seeing it many many times in other animals and in books in re: to the ants. I may be too late for some although the others are still looking good, have good weight ect. I fed them today and watched each and every one to make sure how they were acting. I have both Ivemectin in Injectable form and also liquid Panacur. Plus other worming meds. My problem( and the reason I never because a Vet) is doing the figuring( math) when getting the dosage. And if I use the injectable how much room is there for error. I mean if I am just a tad off with it kill them! Plus which is safer in these Lizards. Have any of you wormed your lizards yourself? Thanks

Have you been keeping horned lizards 43 years? Is that what you meant?

YES! there is very little room for error with the Ivomec. I wouldn't even try it if you have Panacur.

The dosage I outlined in the previous message. Do you know your lizards weight(s) in grams? you will have to do conversions from kg's.

1. 1,000gm=1kg ( divide weight in gm by 1000 )
2. dose x coversion weight ( example ) 50mg/kg (low dose )x
( 10gm ) .01kg =.5
3. .5 divided by mg/ml concentration in the liquid
( probably 100mg/ml? )=.005ml or cc ( same thing )per 10gm
body weight.

So low dose side should be: .005cc @ 10gm
.01cc @ 20gm
.02cc @ 30gm
etc.

higer dosages are used with heavier infestations, but I only advise a reptile vet to determine through tests before messing with high dosages. They can ALSO kill the lizard, by killing too many parasites at once and causing a blockage. there is a bit more room with panancur, but exceed 100mg/kg at own ( and the lizards ) risk.

Mick
-----
"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

there is some suspicion that cetian cricket populations may be a carrier, and I have had the same experience in California and I have cut down using crickets as a side food and went to wax worms and mini-king mealworms or mini-mealworms. I know that doesn't help but possibly may in the future.........
-----
Phrynosoma.com

______

signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

Thanks Reptoman,
Any info will help if not now for in the future. I have ever lost one to this in all my 43 years. Old age a few times and once a illness and a few times injury but never this. I just hope we all here can help these little ones. I just can't believe its happening and so fast!! I'll keep all informed and if anyone can help me figure the math for dosing please let me know. Thanks!!

What exactly is "cetian crickets"?? Do we need to be concerned with all crickets??? This is SO scary!!!

just for additional useful information;

first off, how long have you had these that were affected and how many total are left which came from the same persons/seller?
The rest of the questions may be moot if you have had them less than a month. I'm sure this was a pre-existing condition when you got them.

a good reason not to support these wild caught herp, strip mining "dealers". they are kept in conditions most convenient to profits, which is frequently inconvenient to horned lizard stress, proper feeding, immune function, and prevention of widespread development and transmission of disease.

were there any symptoms that you noticed? or was it pretty much a surprise when you started finding them?

lastly, do you have any specifics you could add to what their diets consisted of? percentage of harvester ants? crickets? from what source did the crickets come? any supplements? this was an outdoor enclosure? if so, was there a water dish?

Mick
-----
"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

just for additional useful information;

first off, how long have you had these that were affected and how many total are left which came from the same persons/seller?
The rest of the questions may be moot if you have had them less than a month. I'm sure this was a pre-existing condition when you got them.

a good reason not to support these wild caught herp, strip mining "dealers". they are kept in conditions most convenient to profits, which is frequently inconvenient to horned lizard stress, proper feeding, immune function, and prevention of widespread development and transmission of disease.

were there any symptoms that you noticed? or was it pretty much a surprise when you started finding them?

lastly, do you have any specifics you could add to what their diets consisted of? percentage of harvester ants? crickets? from what source did the crickets come? any supplements? this was an outdoor enclosure? if so, was there a water dish?

Mick
Hi Mick, I am 43 but started keepig them whe I was youg, probably around 5 yrs old. I also loved what we called Blue bellies. These HL's I have had 4 months except the baby roundtail that I lost. I had her less tha a month. She just went into the main population a few days ago. Noone messed with her either. But she wasn't a big eater. The last once was so infested I saw about 5 worms coming out of the mouth. Thanks for the info on the meds. I plan to get to work today and worm these guys. I feed the ants first which comes from antsalive.com, each gets anywhere from 40-50 ants at a time. then I thrown in some pinheads and I would say they each eat 5-10 and I rotate the mini mealworms with the crickets and I can't honestly say how many each one gets but guess probably 10-15. And lastly an occasionally I add some waxworms. I spray them for water every two days and there is a water bowl in there as well. All food gets dusted with vitamins/mineral supplement ever other feeding and a calcium supplement on the other days. Plus all food gets gut loaded. I use reptisun 8.0 and a heatlamp 100 watt in a 40 gal Temps under the lamp reach 100-115 degrees approx.( depending on the room temp. They are in a reptile room with temps around 80-85 and the cool side is ranging 85. I use play sand in the dept of 4-6 inches cleaned every other day of waste and change the sand monthly. I have never had a problem with keeping them but for years I used only a repti sun 5.0. If something doesn't seem right please let me know. All of these deaths have gotten me terribly upset. Thanks

OK I have given them the worming meds and Pray they will be OK. Only two weighed 20 grams, three at 18 grams, one at 16 grams and one ( another baby roundtail) at 4 grams. Please wish me luck and in two weeks we will repeat this. I used the injectable to be sure all the meds went into their system and I stayed in the Low dose area to be safe. Thanks for all your help and I will keep in contact about this. I saved the three dead ones to open them up to see just how infected they were. I will take pictures and give all follow up info to you all so you can also have this knowledge for future referrence. Thanks again!!!!!! PS: Now I just need to learn how to post pictures, any tips??

I hope they will be ok. It is very sad.

What do you mean you used injectible? Was the liquid Panacur for injectible or oral?

one of the more important questions I had was where did your crickets come from? What do you know of how clean the conditions are at the source?

So I understand you; you have Rountails in one 40 gal. and DHL in another? And temp/lighting conditions you described are accurate to both? 110-115* on one side and 85* on the other? Is your heat source a spot or flood? Is this room they are in environmentally controlled in any way, or does it fluctuate in temp. to the degree that it could take the aquarium temps. higher?

Those high temps are on the very high end of what I would recommend, and, for an aquarium that is in a room which is not somewhat environmentally controlled. Should the room temps fluctuate, I believe these temps leave little room to prevent overheating. I know in the wild they may be subjected to higher temps in the desert. But the shaded surface area and ventilation factors are different than in an aquarium.

I prefer to keep high side average in a 40 gallon around 100*-105*. 110*-115* confined to a very tight surface area, and not the average temp for the hot side. That may sound a little low compared to what Montanucci suggests ( like 122* ), or that others may be using. But, horned lizards aren't really out active in temps higher than that anyway, and I have noticed that they burrow and hide and aren't getting the benefit of the UV lamps if it's kept too hot.

I'm wondering because there may be another cause of death for these lizards. Seeing as there have been several in a close time frame. If all deaths occurred from parasites this close together that would be very strange. I would also be suspect of other environmental possibilities. In fact, the observation of these parasites emerging from the deceased lizard might be purely coincidental to another cause of death. I would assume that these parasites, like most, would attempt to leave the host soon after death. It makes sense.

Mick

ps- to post pics you will have to click on photo gallery at the top of the page and upload the pictures. after that is done, you may select the photo you want to put up from the selection box just above the post message button.
-----
"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246